Johan Franzen is one of the NHL's top 20 forwards.

[The Mule 0]

Guys, I'm not saying ALL of his goals are tap ins, come on. I was there for the playoffs, I saw what he did. All I'm saying is that playing with Zetterberg certainly doesn't hurt his point totals.

You still haven't given me a reason as to why he was still a consistent producer when he was playing without Zetterberg (or Datsyuk, for that matter), making this point irrelevant. Besides, even if he was merely feeding off all-star line mates, why should that be used to knock him? When Crosby won the scoring title, was it only because of Malkin?

[chrisdetroit 189]

The guy hasn't stopped scoring since second half of last season... What is he averaging, >0.75 GPG since then, including playoffs. I made this thread because of that. Collectively, there has been maybe a small batch of players (forwards, defense, and goalies) better than him over the last 6 months of hockey played... In terms of hot players, he is a top gun, and I think soon he will be easily a top 20 forward in terms of elite, proven ones. Unfortunately we might see even more production from him in a different jersey.

He's not going anywhere. Kenny will sign him long term for $4mil or so instead on $8mil or so for Hoss.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Bold statement?

Discuss... It shall be good.

Based just on numbers - yes. He has 8 goals in 11 games 0.727 goals/game

Take the top 24 goal scores (24 guys have 8 goals or more) and calculate the goals/ game and here's the results:

games goals goals/game

1 Alexander Semin WAS 16 13 0.813

2  Thomas Vanek BUF 16 12 0.750

3  Johan Franzen DET 11 8 0.727

4  Simon Gagne PHI 14 10 0.714

5  Henrik Zetterberg DET 14 10 0.714

6  Zach Parise NJD 16 11 0.688

7  Jeff Carter PHI 15 10 0.667

8  Marian Hossa DET 16 10 0.625

9  Shane Doan PHO 15 9 0.600

10  Keith Tkachuk STL 15 9 0.600

11  Patrick Sharp CHI 15 9 0.600

12  Slava Kozlov ATL 16 9 0.563

13  Dany Heatley OTT 16 9 0.563

14  Jarome Iginla CGY 18 10 0.556

15  Brad Boyes STL 15 8 0.533

16  Milan Hejduk COL 15 8 0.533

17  Teemu Selanne ANA 18 9 0.500

18  Ryane Clowe SAN 18 9 0.500

19  Devin Setoguchi SAN 18 9 0.500

20  Derick Brassard COB 16 8 0.500

21  Bryan Little ATL 16 8 0.500

22  Miroslav Satan PIT 16 8 0.500

23  Mikhail Grabovski TOR 17 8 0.471

24  Patrick Marleau SAN 18 8 0.444

Mule is #3. Now you could argue that there are more important things than goal scoring but I don't know how anybody could argue that the #3 goal scorer in the league isn't in the top 20 forwards.

[edicius 3,269]

It doesn't matter where he's ranked; all that matters is that he's wearing a Red Wings jersey and putting the puck in the net. Long live the Mule.

I rather like the fact that he's still kind of under the radar around the league, despite how well he's done since the end of last season.

[adtthosa 5]

You still haven't given me a reason as to why he was still a consistent producer when he was playing without Zetterberg (or Datsyuk, for that matter), making this point irrelevant. Besides, even if he was merely feeding off all-star line mates, why should that be used to knock him? When Crosby won the scoring title, was it only because of Malkin?

No, but there's no way he scores as many points if Malkin's not there.

I'm not knocking Franzen for playing with good linemates. This is a thread about the top 20 forwards in the NHL. When I'm making a list of top 20 forwards, I'm not thinking about the player's linemates.

I can't remember who Franzen was playing with when he broke out, but I'd imagine it was some combination of Hudler/Flip/Sammy. All guys who are still good passers, even if they aren't on Z or D's level. The thing is, he wasn't really a consistent producer until he caught fire at the end of last season. He got hot. He's a better player now because of that hot streak. He now knows where he needs to be and what he needs to do to score goals.

With that being said, look at some of the goals he's scored this year. I could have scored a lot of them. In the past three games alone he's had two gaping nets to shoot at on nice feeds from Z and Hudler. I absolutely do not doubt that he is a talented goal scorer but I think the players he's playing with deserve a lot of credit. He'd probably be the first to tell you that, actually.

Don't get me wrong here, I love me some Franzen. But I don't think he would produce the way he has if he was on a team like, say, Toronto where he'd have to do all the work himself.

[Majsheppard 203]

Franzen before Hossa.

All I got to say.

[skacore 2]

Based just on numbers - yes. He has 8 goals in 11 games 0.727 goals/game

Take the top 24 goal scores (24 guys have 8 goals or more) and calculate the goals/ game and here's the results:

games goals goals/game

1 Alexander Semin WAS 16 13 0.813

2  Thomas Vanek BUF 16 12 0.750

3  Johan Franzen DET 11 8 0.727

4  Simon Gagne PHI 14 10 0.714

5  Henrik Zetterberg DET 14 10 0.714

6  Zach Parise NJD 16 11 0.688

7  Jeff Carter PHI 15 10 0.667

8  Marian Hossa DET 16 10 0.625

9  Shane Doan PHO 15 9 0.600

10  Keith Tkachuk STL 15 9 0.600

11  Patrick Sharp CHI 15 9 0.600

12  Slava Kozlov ATL 16 9 0.563

13  Dany Heatley OTT 16 9 0.563

14  Jarome Iginla CGY 18 10 0.556

15  Brad Boyes STL 15 8 0.533

16  Milan Hejduk COL 15 8 0.533

17  Teemu Selanne ANA 18 9 0.500

18  Ryane Clowe SAN 18 9 0.500

19  Devin Setoguchi SAN 18 9 0.500

20  Derick Brassard COB 16 8 0.500

21  Bryan Little ATL 16 8 0.500

22  Miroslav Satan PIT 16 8 0.500

23  Mikhail Grabovski TOR 17 8 0.471

24  Patrick Marleau SAN 18 8 0.444

Mule is #3. Now you could argue that there are more important things than goal scoring but I don't know how anybody could argue that the #3 goal scorer in the league isn't in the top 20 forwards.

yeah Franzen's a top 20 player in this league right behind Vanek and ahead of Gagne.... lol... Derick Brassard is also a top 30 player in the league but I'm sure everyone knows this already

Franzen might crack a respectable top 50 list, maybe

[Doc Holiday 0]

Since when does Crosby play on the same line as Malkin?

In no way does Malkin pad Crosby's stats. They are both centers.

[The Mule 0]

No, but there's no way he scores as many points if Malkin's not there.

I'm not knocking Franzen for playing with good linemates. This is a thread about the top 20 forwards in the NHL. When I'm making a list of top 20 forwards, I'm not thinking about the player's linemates.

I can't remember who Franzen was playing with when he broke out, but I'd imagine it was some combination of Hudler/Flip/Sammy. All guys who are still good passers, even if they aren't on Z or D's level. The thing is, he wasn't really a consistent producer until he caught fire at the end of last season. He got hot. He's a better player now because of that hot streak. He now knows where he needs to be and what he needs to do to score goals.

With that being said, look at some of the goals he's scored this year. I could have scored a lot of them. In the past three games alone he's had two gaping nets to shoot at on nice feeds from Z and Hudler. I absolutely do not doubt that he is a talented goal scorer but I think the players he's playing with deserve a lot of credit. He'd probably be the first to tell you that, actually.

Don't get me wrong here, I love me some Franzen. But I don't think he would produce the way he has if he was on a team like, say, Toronto where he'd have to do all the work himself.

1. I feel the same, so why were line mates brought up in this discussion?

2. Not important. Very few players break into the league and produce immediately.

3. I present to you the Exaggeration of the Year Award.

4. Sure, they do, but that can be said for 99.9% of goal scorers, making it irrelevant.

5. Once again, irrelevant. He's a Red Wing, and that's all we have to judge him upon.

[eva unit zero 271]

If that's the case, how do you explain his barrage of goals last season when he wasn't playing with Zetts?

You mean the end of last year going into the playoffs? He was playing with Zetts AND Dats.

[The Mule 0]

You mean the end of last year going into the playoffs? He was playing with Zetts AND Dats.

No, he wasn't. Sure, Babcock juggled the lines here and there, but the majority of the time last March (when Franzen went on a goal scoring tear), he was centering the second line, usually surrounded by a combination of Cleary, Hudler, Kopecky, and Samuelsson.

[adtthosa 5]

1. Because I was replying to "Besides, even if he was merely feeding off all-star line mates, why should that be used to knock him?"

2. This is true.

3. I've never won anything in my life, so thanks for that. Seriously though, for many of his goals this season he has been in the right place at the right time. Not that it's a bad thing. The goals he's scored this year have been similar to goals that Homer scores for us, and no one's considering him a top 20 forward.

4. The mere fact that Franzen is not in that 0.1% is the reason why he's not a top 20 forward in the league.

5. Maybe so, but if he leaves next season maybe we can resume this debate in a year's time.

As for the Crosby/Malkin thing, sorry, I don't watch the Pens much. Although I'm sure they play together on the PP.

Edited November 16, 2008 by adtthosa

[hankzet40 233]

Not yet, but he is on his way..

[Doggy 130]

No, he wasn't. Sure, Babcock juggled the lines here and there, but the majority of the time last March (when Franzen went on a goal scoring tear), he was centering the second line, usually surrounded by a combination of Cleary, Hudler, Kopecky, and Samuelsson.

Eva is right, dude. When Holmstrom was injured Franzen played with Hank and Datsyuk often. Babcock juggled the lines a bit but he was always with Hank, Dats or both. That was when he scored about half of his goals for the season and it was in a month or so. And BTW, the only time you'll see Malkin with Crosby is on the PP.

[Anomalously 0]

As for the Crosby/Malkin thing, sorry, I don't watch the Pens much. Although I'm sure they play together on the PP.

Malkin plays on the point, Crosby on the half-boards. (You watched the playoffs last year, right?)

[Saran 1]

...said the stupid lgw poster

[The Mule 0]

Eva is right, dude. When Holmstrom was injured Franzen played with Hank and Datsyuk often. Babcock juggled the lines a bit but he was always with Hank, Dats or both. That was when he scored about half of his goals for the season and it was in a month or so. And BTW, the only time you'll see Malkin with Crosby is on the PP.

I don't think so. I did a quick check of Bruce MacLeod's blog entries from last March, and skimmed over the lines he posted before games, and Franzen was listed as centering the second line every time, rarely paired with Zetterberg, and never with Datsyuk.

As for the Penguins example, did Crosby and Malkin not play together the season before last? I could be wrong, so don't quote me. I don't follow the Penguins enough to know who is playing on whose line.

Edited November 16, 2008 by The Mule

[BeeRYCE 2]

...said the stupid lgw poster

Wait, you talking about me? I would consider myself pretty knowledgable with hockey, but if you say so...

[Saran 1]

Wait, you talking about me? I would consider myself pretty knowledgable with hockey, but if you say so...

oh didn't see that it was u beeRYCE, but still i have to say that it is kinda stupid to say that johan is in the top 20 forwards in the league. seeing as we clearly have 3 better forwards on our team, its kinda hard to say he's in the top 20.

[BeeRYCE 2]

oh didn't see that it was u beeRYCE, but still i have to say that it is kinda stupid to say that johan is in the top 20 forwards in the league. seeing as we clearly have 3 better forwards on our team, its kinda hard to say he's in the top 20.

The thing is, who's to say all 4 can't be in the top 20? I don't know... You obviously don't agree, but the fact that's he gets a goal almost every game, he has been one of the hottest in the NHL for like the last 6 months of hockey. I think by the end of this season, this discussion will become more legit.

[Saran 1]

^^ true that, let's wait till the end of the season and see what's what. honestly, i hope he does end up being in the top 20

[Doggy 130]

I don't think so. I did a quick check of Bruce MacLeod's blog entries from last March, and skimmed over the lines he posted before games, and Franzen was listed as centering the second line every time, rarely paired with Zetterberg, and never with Datsyuk.

As for the Penguins example, did Crosby and Malkin not play together the season before last? I could be wrong, so don't quote me. I don't follow the Penguins enough to know who is playing on whose line.

Okay well, Bruce MacLeod's articles notwithstanding, here is something you can't argue with.

When Homer was injured, Franzen scored 13 goals. Lidstrom assisted on 7, Hank and Datsyuk had 6 assists each, Rafalski had 2 helpers with Chelios and Kopecky assisting on another. Samuelsson assisted on zero as did everyone else you said he partnered with.

Regardless of whether or not many were scored on the PP, you asked for an explanation of how he scored so many without Zetterberg. I believe that's the explanation you're after.

Eva, are you proud of me? Lol.

Edit: Forgot to throw this in there. Franzen scored 3 goals out of 13 without an assist from Datsyuk or Zetterberg in said period.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Doggy

[lets go pavel 2]

Franzen scored 38 points in 72 games last year. These are not top 20 numbers. I realize he scored the majority of those in about a third as many games at the end of the season, and if you extrapolate that over a full season he's a beast, but he hasn't done it yet. He's off to a good start this year, and if he continues at this pace all year I think we'll have something to talk about at this time next year. But I believe a top 20 player has to perform at a high level consistently over a longer period of time, maybe even multiple seasons.

I also wouldn't put Semin in the top 20, despite his hot start, and if I had to pick between the two I would rate Franzen higher.

[The Mule 0]

Okay well, Bruce MacLeod's articles notwithstanding, here is something you can't argue with.

When Homer was injured, Franzen scored 13 goals. Lidstrom assisted on 7, Hank and Datsyuk had 6 assists each, Rafalski had 2 helpers with Chelios and Kopecky assisting on another. Samuelsson assisted on zero as did everyone else you said he partnered with.

Regardless of whether or not many were scored on the PP, you asked for an explanation of how he scored so many without Zetterberg. I believe that's the explanation you're after.

Eva, are you proud of me? Lol.

Edit: Forgot to throw this in there. Franzen scored 3 goals out of 13 without an assist from Datsyuk or Zetterberg in said period.

Where exactly are you getting your information from? I checked to see if what you said was factually correct, and I quickly found out that it most certainly was not. If you go to the Red Wings' website and find the results page for the 2007-2008 season, you'll see that Samuelsson assisted on Franzen's first two goals in the month of March, which were scored on March 2nd and March 4th against the Sabres and Blues respectively.

Moreover, I came across several of Franzen's goals throughout the month of March which were not assisted by either Zetterberg or Datsyuk, and the ones that were far more often than not marked on the power play, which has as much to do with Hank and Pavel as it does with having an extra attacker on the ice for a 2 minute session.

[Doggy 130]

If you fact-check further you'll find that the period I'm referring to begins March 9. When Holmstrom missed his first game. Anything else?