Report: 2009-10 cap rumored to be $55M

[YoungGuns1340 1]

People just dismiss Leino and Helm -who are are having great seasons so far- when it comes to this topic. Despite the fact that everyone here especially can't wait to see Leino. But he doesn't count for this topic of discussion, for whatever reason. You aren't sacrificing much depth if everything were to somehow magically align and work out and Hossa, Helm and Leino are in a Wings uniform next season.

With my understanding, he was referring to Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, and Sammy as opposed to Hossa - not Leino or Helm.

[19Hockeytown5 0]

Its comical that teams like Tampa Bay crashed and burned with three big guns and nothing else, and now it looks like Ottawa is heading in the same direction, and yet people STILL want to cut out half of our depth just to have three stellar players?

This is the way I see it now and the way I have seen it since we signed Hossa.

We just won the stanley cup and I think our team was solid enough to go for a repeat, even before we got Hossa (I'm sure almost everyone here agrees). Now say Hossa helps us repeat during this one year window. We sign Zetterberg and Franzen. With the remaining money we sign the other role players (huds/sammy/ect ect) willing to buy into our system. Is there anything wrong with going for the three pete (assuming we are lucky enough to have another parade) with essentially the same team that won last year? I don't think so.

It goes against everything Red Wing to unload all of our role guys. We show loyalty to our guys (fran/zet) and like to roll 4 deep lines. I don't think there's anyway Holland sacrifices 4-5 players off of a stanley cup winning team to retain Hossa. Hossa is as good as gone. I love the guy, but it's what's best for this franchise.

Edited November 22, 2008 by 19Hockeytown5

[YoungGuns1340 1]

This is the way I see it now and the way I have seen it since we signed Hossa.

We just won the stanley cup and I think our team was solid enough to go for a repeat, even before we got Hossa (I'm sure almost everyone here agrees). Now say Hossa helps us repeat during this one year window. We sign Zetterberg and Franzen. With the remaining money we sign the other role players (huds/sammy/ect ect) willing to buy into our system. Is there anything wrong with going for the three pete (assuming we are lucky enough to have another parade) with essentially the same team that won last year? I don't think so.

It goes against everything Red Wing to unload all of our role guys. We show loyalty to our guys (fran/zet) and like to roll 4 deep lines. I don't think there's anyway Holland sacrifices 4-5 players off of a stanley cup winning team to retain Hossa. Hossa is as good as gone. I love the guy, but it's what's best for this franchise.

Yup. I agree. I feel like somewhere along the line, people forgot that the team we won the cup last year did not need Hossa. Hes a luxury, not a necessity. And theres certainly no reason to blow the team up in order to make Hossa fit under the cap - which is exactly what we'd have to do in order to retain him.

[cirov19 1]

You guys pretty much summed up anything, so I'll just include my two cents:

This is brutal.

[theman19 47]

I don't think it's that easy. he may want to be a Red Wing but he may also be a well paid

player on a team with good shot on a cup. and there's a number of such teams for seasons

to come. there's many reasons for him not to accept Winged Wheel jersey for small money.

and Holland won't give him $8M+ contract because that would put about $36M+ of Wings

cap space in just 5 players (Nick, Zet, Dats, Rafalski and Hossa).

see: http://nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=DET&season=0809

that would leave some $20M left for some 15 players. minus ~$3M for Cleary, Flip and Stuart

who are already signed long-term it makes $11M for 12 players. even assuming we dress our

prospects to fill the voids with little cash it'd give around $4M for another 6 players so there

are $7M left for 6 players and some cushion to sign guys in case of injuries. that would be

less that $1M per player which is below Lilja-money, so you get the picture about what quality

of players (including goalies!!!) we would be able to dress.

you misunderstand me, When i said if hossa wants to be here he will be, i meant he'll have to make sacrifices to stay, like take a lower amount, if he doesn't,...like he wants a big pay check,....he won't. Maybe there's a team that will pay him well and have a shot at a cup, then he'll go there.

Bottom line, hossa is the type of player that commands his own destiny.

take $8M out of this equation and there's much better options for Holland to buy 3 quality

lines instead of 1 über-line and so-so (at best) 3 lines.

there really isn't a chance to keep Hossa here. and as much as I personally enjoy his game

and skill set I'd rather see the Wings rolling 3 good lines instead of such 1 überline and

then have little to show

[dallas27 7]

With my understanding, he was referring to Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, and Sammy as opposed to Hossa - not Leino or Helm.

That's great. And Leino and Helm wash out Flip and Sammy, obviously Hossa with Franzen. You aren't losing depth. My argument is, if Mr. Holland starts working out numbers with everyone and it's feasible to fit Hossa in and all he has to do is let Mule walk and trade Flip and Sammy when you have Leino and Helm waiting in Grand Rapids, I do it. We don't know what the cap will be and we certainly don't know what the players will ask for, all we can do is throw out armchair scenarios.

I know two certain things though. 1) You give Hank what he wants and 2) I hope Flip blossoms into an even better hockey player (the brass regard him highly, they usually have good judgment) but he is expendable right now at 3 million.

I know one uncertainty. Everyone says Hossa is going to be going after money after this season. There isn't any evidence that suggests he wouldn't take a discounted long-term contract to stay here. But, seeing as I should baby proof this, that's dependent on the cap, what Mule wants, what Hank wants, what Hossa wants etc. If Hossa wins one here who's to say his mindset will or will not be "hey, winning the Stanley Cup is kiiiiinnnnda cool, and I'm playing with a pretty bad ass team that has a legit shot every year to win, maybe I'll talk with Mr. Holland and see if we can work something out, we did in the summer." Every analyst and their mom chastised Hossa for taking that big of a discount to play with the Wings, all the while as Hossa was saying all the right words to the media. There is a reason why it can happen again and there is a reason why it can't happen again, mainly the cap. The latter is going to most likely play a bigger role.

Edited November 23, 2008 by dallas27

[YoungGuns1340 1]

That's great. And Leino and Helm wash out Flip and Sammy, obviously Hossa with Franzen. You aren't losing depth. My argument is, if Mr. Holland starts working out numbers with everyone and it's feasible to fit Hossa in and all he has to do is let Mule walk and trade Flip and Sammy when you have Leino and Helm waiting in Grand Rapids, I do it. We don't know what the cap will be and we certainly don't know what the players will ask for, all we can do is throw out armchair scenarios.

I know two certain things though. 1) You give Hank what he wants and 2) I hope Flip blossoms into an even better hockey player (the brass regard him highly, they usually have good judgment) but he is expendable right now at 3 million.

I know one uncertainty. Everyone says Hossa is going to be going after money after this season. There isn't any evidence that suggests he wouldn't take a discounted long-term contract to stay here. But, seeing as I should baby proof this, that's dependent on the cap, what Mule wants, what Hank wants, what Hossa wants etc. If Hossa wins one here who's to say his mindset will or will not be "hey, winning the Stanley Cup is kiiiiinnnnda cool, and I'm playing with a pretty bad ass team that has a legit shot every year to win, maybe I'll talk with Mr. Holland and see if we can work something out, we did in the summer." Every analyst and their mom chastised Hossa for taking that big of a discount to play with the Wings, all the while as Hossa was saying all the right words to the media. There is a reason why it can happen again and there is a reason why it can't happen again, mainly the cap. The latter is going to most likely play a bigger role.

We aren't losing depth? We're just assuming that Helm and Leino are going to perform and produce like Sammy and Flip do?

Heres you're scenario. Tell me how this "works" with a 55M cap:

Homer (2.25) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Hossa (7)

Hudler (2) - Zetterberg (7.5) - Leino (.88)

Cleary (2.8) - Helm (.6) - Kopecky (.7)

Maltby (.88) - Draper (1.58) - Abdelkader (.85)

Mac (.5)

Lidstrom (7.45) - Raffi (6)

Kronwall (3) - Stuart (3.75)

Ericsson (.9) - Lilja (1.2)

Meech (.5)

Osgood (1.4)

Howard (.71)

Total: 59.15

So lets keep Lebda and trade Lilja = a gain of 550k, trade Hudler - a gain of 2.0 (and its likely that hell earn a hell of a lot more with a simple trip to arbitration), and cut Hossa and Zetterberg down to Datsyuks price of 6.7 - a gain of 1.1M

That leaves us with this roster:

Homer (2.25) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Hossa (6.7)

Cleary (2.8) - Zetterberg (6.7) - Leino (.88)

Abdelkader (.85) - Helm (.6) - Kopecky (.7)

Maltby (.88) - Draper (1.58) - Mac (.5)

Downey (.5)

Lidstrom (7.45) - Raffi (6)

Kronwall (3) - Stuart (3.75)

Ericsson (.9) - Lebda (.65)

Meech (.5)

Osgood (1.4)

Howard (.71)

Total: 56.0M

Please tell me - because I'm dying to know - how the hell this scenario is going to work out. Even if you trade Cleary - who has a NTC - and keep Hudler - who at 2.0M is a bargain and will earn more than that in arbitration, you can be sure of it - your salary still comes out to 55.2M. And thats with Hudler, Hank, and Hossa taking paycuts, a loss of PKing skill on the backend and three lines up front that have seen a downgrade in either experience or all-around talent.

Get over it. Hossa is gone.

Finally - food for thought. The reason Hossa signed here on a discount is because WE RETAINED OUR ENTIRE CUP-WINNING ROSTER. Do you honestly think with the downgraded roster I just posted, hes really going to want to sign here long-term at a significant discount no less? right.

Edited November 23, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Can players still do money deferrals?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Can players still do money deferrals?

Nope. Not under this CBA.

[dallas27 7]

All I'm saying is if the numbers work out and you can retain Hossa by letting Mule walk and shipping out Flip and Sammy then I am fine with that. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I don't have my heart set on it. And, again, it's all dependent on what everyone wants and what the cap does. And, again, if the cap goes down it's obviously a different story. And, again, you have to give Hank what he wants. I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

[wingslionstigers 12]

What three or four players are you referring to? Hossa is just as good as Hank and Datsyuk. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say he isn't. So that's two. Who are these two other mystery players? Flip? I sure hope you don't think Flip is better than Hossa. Hudler? Not even close. *edit* Do you mean 3-4 combined players? Wording is subject... Even if that is the case Hossa + Leino + Helm is arguably a much better option than Mule + Flip + Sammy if money allows it, more on that below.

Do you honestly think Leino/Helm are going to fill Franz, Flips, Hudlers, or Sammys role? Do you really think Leino/Helm are NHL ready 2nd line players? Your dreaming maybe in 3 years from now they will be. Do you really think that these guys are that good already? They could be 2nd line players one day but not next season.

To keep Hossa we are going to have to loose 3-4 of are decent payed players, which would be the ones i listed above. Even if you read YoungGuns1340s speculations. That still wouldn't even work out as good as he listed. Zett nor Hossa is going to accept 6.7 mill. No way in hell Hudlers going to only want 2 mill if he stays on the pace hes on now. Now look we have to scratch Hudler off his speculations too. Look how s***ty our team is now.

All I'm saying is if the numbers work out and you can retain Hossa by letting Mule walk and shipping out Flip and Sammy then I am fine with that. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I don't have my heart set on it. And, again, it's all dependent on what everyone wants and what the cap does. And, again, if the cap goes down it's obviously a different story. And, again, you have to give Hank what he wants. I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

Alls we are saying is they don't. The numbers have just been done in front of your own eyes. Theres a 100% chance that you can't sign Hossa and Zetterberg for next season no and if butts about it. Even being unrealistic about the numbers and low balling the projections its still not possible. Them numbers don't lie those are the real numbers being low balled if anthing.

[dallas27 7]

Do you honestly think Leino/Helm are going to fill Franz, Flips, Hudlers, or Sammys role? Do you really think Leino/Helm are NHL ready 2nd line players? Your dreaming maybe in 3 years from now they will be. Do you really think that these guys are that good already? They could be 2nd line players one day but not next season.

Alls we are saying is they don't. The numbers have just been done in front of your own eyes. Theres a 100% chance that you can't sign Hossa and Zetterberg for next season no and if butts about it. Even being unrealistic about the numbers and low balling the projections its still not possible. Them numbers don't lie those are the real numbers being low balled if anthing.

Hossa is much better than Franzen, people (including me) already want to see what Leino can do, and Helm and Abdlekader have already shown a lot of promise in a Wings uniform. I'm not saying or ever said they are going to step in and outscore and perform them both, but they certainly aren't just fish in a bucket.

I guess I missed the press conference where young's numbers are the numbers the NHL has just set in stone. The fact of the matter is, we don't know what the cap is going to be and we don't know what everyone is going to ask for. I'll say it again. I'm simply saying if the numbers work out and all I have to do is let Mule walk and trade Flip and Sammy, I do it. Nobody else. Just them. I honestly can not make it any simpler.

I even left out that countless times I've mentioned it's a different situation if the cap is lowered to 55 million (it's a rumor, rumors aren't always true, that's why they are rumors) and and you have to give Hank what he wants. Obviously it's too much to ask for both of you to read and understand that.

Edited November 24, 2008 by dallas27

[Dabura 12,232]

I feel like somewhere along the line, people forgot that the team we won the cup last year did not need Hossa. Hes a luxury, not a necessity. And theres certainly no reason to blow the team up in order to make Hossa fit under the cap - which is exactly what we'd have to do in order to retain him.

But how do you really feel about him?

[egroen 384]

Every time I run the numbers I get depressed. Seriously.

I just hope they take advantage of this incredible team they have been able to ice this year... we won't see anything similar for quite a while.