Team toughness

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Enforcer != Team Toughness

While I don't feel that the Wings are exhibiting anywhere close to the physicality and team toughness presented in last year's playoff run (and I am taking into account the intensity present and necessary for season games vs playoff games), I also don't feel an enforcer has anything to do with it.

Mike Babcock knows this as well as anyone. The Wings have such a ridiculous cache of highly skilled scorers that they don't need to get down and play dirty hockey and win the individual battles to score heaps of goals night in and night out. And while you can finesse on offense and win on a consistent basis (at least during the season), you can't sit on laurels and play solid defense. If you don't bring a physical game and hit and knock people over and block shots, you're going to give up goals even if you're sporting Nick Lidstrom and Brian Rafalaski on the blue line.

The team's level of play has been altered, fundamentally, and inserting Aaron Downey into the line up doesn't change a thing. If teams bury four or five a night on half-assed clearing attempts and loose play along the boards, what's Aaron Downey got to do with it?

I understand the significance of having a guy come in and play good tough hockey and stand up for his teammates, especially during the season. And in the same breath, I recognize that this guy doesn't alter a team's mindset and tendencies, that this guy isn't the answer for the issues that you pin on the team. The teams present issues with toughness run far deeper than Henrik Zetterberg getting a face-wash.

So to clarify -- I would actually endorse getting a tough guy into the line up now and again. A fight can fire up the team and inspire better play. But it's not a fix or even a very good band-aid for the Wings' issues with toughness.

[hokike 1]

@ Heroes of Hockey

thnx for soundig response. It is boring to read how posters constantly claim "there is ONE solution for everything!".

Fights really doesnt matter when results really matter - in POs.

Hitting may be up but it has nothing to do with fights.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Did we have a tough guy last year? Other than Downie and DMac who were almost didn't play at all in the playoffs, we were fine.

You are also forgetting about Dallas Drake, who was incrediblly tough (whether you like his style is a diff. conversation) and gritty. And the whole "well they didn't (Downey), or they "hardly" (Mac) is downright laughable. The reality of the NHL is that there is a 82 game season followed by the playoffs .

I mean don't you find it just a tad ironic that we struggle in the playoffs a couple years in a row -- from around 03-04 until 07-08, go back to the drawing table, come out with a tougher team (aka more well rounded) by bringing in Drake and Downey (and Mac towards the end of the season) and we win the cup.

I am not going to try to explain myself anymore, I know I will get ripped for it regardless of the information and/or argument I put out there, so that's that.

To answer, or should I say, offer my .02 cents on the threads question all I will say is that I believe that we need a little more grit inserted into the lineup (I am completely aware it ain't happening) however we do not need to go looking for a goon. I mean the question is beyond hypothetical seeing as though Holland would NEVER, EVER dress, pursue, etc. someone regarded as a goon.

PS: If you substitute anyone (Downey, Mac, free agent) into the lineup and move Kopecky there would be no negative impact what so ever. But hey, Kopecky's about to break out any day now (2 yes and waiting...)

Edited December 12, 2008 by sureWhyNot

[skacore 2]

PS: If you substitute anyone (Downey, Mac, free agent) into the lineup and move Kopecky there would be no negative impact what so ever. But hey, Kopecky's about to break out any day now (2 yes and waiting...)

Hey man, you never know! I mean... it ONLY took him 4 years in the AHL to become a decent player there. He has such appealing size, 6'3 and 200 soaking wet (looks like a skeleton) how could we get rid of him?

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

IMO all those "enforser fans" are naive. Why?

1. Hockey is extremely physical game injures happen daily.

2. Do you really think the hockey player is afraid of so called fight especially when most of fights are "bear dances"?Every player would take "fight" over groin or knee injury( see above).

3. Players have said that they do not need fights , it is for fans.

4. Do you think that fights or results of those shake players self esteem? C'mon "fights" may affect teenagers self esteem, but do you really imagine adult hockey players react as teenagers? Same thing with that "statement" issue: it may impress teens but certainly not hockey players in NHL.

4. My point is clear: contrary to popular myth players are not afraid of fights or goons. Opponents absolutely does not care of "Downeys or Macs" or other goons. Mac's or Downey's punches are joke comparably attempts to stop 100mph puck by defenders/goalie.

P.S. It is humiliating to handle members of Red Wing as shaky teens who need fights to "prove something". They are adults and I'm 100% sure they absolutely do not care if somebody says something like that: "No goons there what a ***** team."

I've never heard this and have heard the contrary. I'm wondering if you could provide a source or link for this statement...

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Do the Red Wings NEED an enforcer? I would say probably not.

Would it be nice to dress Mac or Downey over Kopecky? I would say absolutely.

It would also be nice to stuff 80 pounds of horses*** into a Red Wings jersey and throw it on the ice for about 8 minutes every game instead of seeing Kopeckys ugly, usesless mug out there.

But hes Hossa BFF. Not gonna happen.

To answer the question. A thug? No. A guy like Dallas Drake? Yes. I wouldnt mind seeing a guy like Glencross or Mayers in the lineup.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

You are also forgetting about Dallas Drake, who was incrediblly tough (whether you like his style is a diff. conversation) and gritty. And the whole "well they didn't (Downey), or they "hardly" (Mac) is downright laughable. The reality of the NHL is that there is a 82 game season followed by the playoffs .

I mean don't you find it just a tad ironic that we struggle in the playoffs a couple years in a row -- from around 03-04 until 07-08, go back to the drawing table, come out with a tougher team (aka more well rounded) by bringing in Drake and Downey (and Mac towards the end of the season) and we win the cup.

I am not going to try to explain myself anymore, I know I will get ripped for it regardless of the information and/or argument I put out there, so that's that.

To answer, or should I say, offer my .02 cents on the threads question all I will say is that I believe that we need a little more grit inserted into the lineup (I am completely aware it ain't happening) however we do not need to go looking for a goon. I mean the question is beyond hypothetical seeing as though Holland would NEVER, EVER dress, pursue, etc. someone regarded as a goon.

PS: If you substitute anyone (Downey, Mac, free agent) into the lineup and move Kopecky there would be no negative impact what so ever. But hey, Kopecky's about to break out any day now (2 yes and waiting...)

Kopecky won't be moved while Hossa is a Red Wing.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

It would also be nice to stuff 80 pounds of horses*** into a Red Wings jersey and throw it on the ice for about 8 minutes every game instead of seeing Kopeckys ugly, usesless mug out there.

But hes Hossa BFF. Not gonna happen.

To answer the question. A thug? No. A guy like Dallas Drake? Yes. I wouldnt mind seeing a guy like Glencross or Mayers in the lineup.

That beats any joke I've ever made about him.

He needs to dance with Patrick Sharp again on New Year's Day if he ever wants to earn my respect. He's softer than pudding right now with the way he's playing.

[esteef 2,679]

If any team is deep enough skillwise to "give up a roster spot" to a tough guy it's Detroit. Hell, our whole fourth line could be fighters and we'd still be OK. Riddle me this, if a tough player doesn't provide a God Damned thing then why does every team have at least one if not more? It's not about stopping cheap s*** from happening, it's about responding and matching it when it does, before it gets out-of-hand. This whole 'if it doesn't directly translate to a goal it's useless' theory is just horses***.

BTW, letting Lilja be our "enforcer" is stupid because he's one of our best PK'rs. Bring up Downey already! Sheesh.

esteef

[Ratbastrd 90]

From an outsiders perspective (Sharks fan here). The Wings have earned a lot of respect (read fear) around the league for not employing a prototypical enforcer.

Seems to me that if you can find someone or a few guys that can command respect from a physicality standpoint, that are not a liability on the ice then great. However the most effective counter to cheapshots and intimidation is a killer power play.

The Wings have been very effective at employing the later which is far more intimidating in the post season. There are a lot of guys on this squad who can throw the body around and who are willing to drop the gloves if needed to protect themselves or a teammate. From a "code" perspective this negates the value of the other teams goon. Meaning you have effectively eliminated a roster spot on the other teams bench.

At the end of the day it is about who wins and moves on.

JMTC

[scotzman 29]

Ok, 1 sec... I think I have an idea of the type of hockey fan you are...

...did you just throw up?

Why would we ever need someone like that?

I hate hard working, grinding, gritty players who are willing to stand up for their teammates...

Bring back Mac or Downey!!

Geesh...

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Why would we ever need someone like that?

I hate hard working, grinding, gritty players who are willing to stand up for their teammates...

Bring back Mac or Downey!!

Geesh...

Yeah me too, and there's no entertainment value to boot. I bet if the Wings picked up any player like that people would stop going to games.... /sarcasm

What does Mickey always say when there's a tussle???... "There's not a person in their seat, they don't like it at all do they?!?!?!"

Edited December 12, 2008 by ManLuv4Clears

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

From an outsiders perspective (Sharks fan here). The Wings have earned a lot of respect (read fear) around the league for not employing a prototypical enforcer.

Seems to me that if you can find someone or a few guys that can command respect from a physicality standpoint, that are not a liability on the ice then great. However the most effective counter to cheapshots and intimidation is a killer power play.

The Wings have been very effective at employing the later which is far more intimidating in the post season. There are a lot of guys on this squad who can throw the body around and who are willing to drop the gloves if needed to protect themselves or a teammate. From a "code" perspective this negates the value of the other teams goon. Meaning you have effectively eliminated a roster spot on the other teams bench.

At the end of the day it is about who wins and moves on.

JMTC

How long have you been a fan of the KHL?

When teams start playing dirty, that means the game is usually out of hand already, meaning that they don't give a damn about the PP.

Why do our fans consistently have to defend the lack of fighting with this s***ty argument about the PP being the enforcer? You guys should go watch basketball instead if you really believe this crap.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

How long have you been a fan of the KHL?

When teams start playing dirty, that means the game is usually out of hand already, meaning that they don't give a damn about the PP.

Why do our fans consistently have to defend the lack of fighting with this s***ty argument about the PP being the enforcer? You guys should go watch basketball instead if you really believe this crap.

When the game is out of hand that usually means that one team's slaughtering another, im pretty sure babcock would be double shifting the 4th line and juicing the clock. Who cares if kopecky or maltby gets hurt that just gives helm and leino chances.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

How long have you been a fan of the KHL?

When teams start playing dirty, that means the game is usually out of hand already, meaning that they don't give a damn about the PP.

Why do our fans consistently have to defend the lack of fighting with this s***ty argument about the PP being the enforcer? You guys should go watch basketball instead if you really believe this crap.

At ease. The member you quoted said he/she was a Sharks fan, coming from an outside perspective other than a Wings fan. Perhaps more than just a few Red Wings fans might actually think this. Relax. Deep breaths. Take a sedative. Have a beer. No need to be disrespectful to fans of others teams on here when those fans aren't trolling are starting s**t. And I also like watching other sports as well as hockey, which includes basketball, so I'm sorry if that is such a crime against toughness.

[Ratbastrd 90]

How long have you been a fan of the KHL?

When teams start playing dirty, that means the game is usually out of hand already, meaning that they don't give a damn about the PP.

Why do our fans consistently have to defend the lack of fighting with this s***ty argument about the PP being the enforcer? You guys should go watch basketball instead if you really believe this crap.

Have to disagree with you on this one.

The Ducks, Preds and a few other teams play on the line (could be read dirty) all the time. Sure if the score gets run up it is going to get worse, but in general you know what you are going to get from those teams.

Regarding the s***ty argument about the value of a good power play as a counter to such play, consider the Stars/Ducks series in last years SC. The Ducks got spanked by the Stars because of the rediculous efficiency of the Stars PP. The Ducks played some of the dirtiest/stupidest hockey I have ever seen, yet the Stars refused to retaliate when things got out of hand game after game. Instead the stars scored something like 9 PP goals in their 4 wins, 4 of which came in the first game in a 4-0 win.

The point I was trying to make is that an enforcer is great as long as he is not a liability on the ice which they frequently are. Parros is a ******* pylon with a porn stash, yet he is one of the most revered "enforcers" in the league. NO THANKS!

I would rather have a handful of players that play the body and put points on the board, yet when needed, will pound the s*** out of the Prongers and Tootoos of the world.

The Sharks Ryan Clowe is a perfect example.

[lets go pavel 2]

Have to disagree with you on this one.

The Ducks, Preds and a few other teams play on the line (could be read dirty) all the time. Sure if the score gets run up it is going to get worse, but in general you know what you are going to get from those teams.

Regarding the s***ty argument about the value of a good power play as a counter to such play, consider the Stars/Ducks series in last years SC. The Ducks got spanked by the Stars because of the rediculous efficiency of the Stars PP. The Ducks played some of the dirtiest/stupidest hockey I have ever seen, yet the Stars refused to retaliate when things got out of hand game after game. Instead the stars scored something like 9 PP goals in their 4 wins, 4 of which came in the first game in a 4-0 win.

The point I was trying to make is that an enforcer is great as long as he is not a liability on the ice which they frequently are. Parros is a ******* pylon with a porn stash, yet he is one of the most revered "enforcers" in the league. NO THANKS!

I would rather have a handful of players that play the body and put points on the board, yet when needed, will pound the s*** out of the Prongers and Tootoos of the world.

The Sharks Ryan Clowe is a perfect example.

Okay, but in a way you proved GMR's point ... the Stars may have benefitted from the PPs, but that didn't stop the Ducks from playing that way. So the PP didn't act as an enforcer at all, it just helped them win the series ... and obviously, during the regular season, this doesn't matter.

Can the PP act as a deterrent sometimes? Sure, for the same reason coaches tell their players not to take stupid penalties when the game is close. But if the game isn't close ...

[skacore 2]

The point I was trying to make is that an enforcer is great as long as he is not a liability on the ice which they frequently are. Parros is a ******* pylon with a porn stash, yet he is one of the most revered "enforcers" in the league. NO THANKS!

It's hard to take any of your post seriously when you make a stupid claim like this. You take the prototypical enforcer and call him a pylon, have you ever seen Parros play? He's not a ******* pylon. 7 points and +9 in 26 games, a consistent physical presence and one of the best fighters in the league, not to mention one of the smartest enforcers in the league, he knows when and why to fight. He takes a regular shift on the Ducks' fourth line and contributes every night. He has outplayed anyone on our 4th line so far this year. Don't comment on something you know nothing about.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

At ease. The member you quoted said he/she was a Sharks fan, coming from an outside perspective other than a Wings fan. Perhaps more than just a few Red Wings fans might actually think this. Relax. Deep breaths. Take a sedative. Have a beer. No need to be disrespectful to fans of others teams on here when those fans aren't trolling are starting s**t. And I also like watching other sports as well as hockey, which includes basketball, so I'm sorry if that is such a crime against toughness.

I wasn't attacking any one poster, nor the fact that they're a Sharks fan (which I didn't even know) but was calling out anyone in general who makes this PP deterrent argument. You're the one who needs to relax, and it's probably not a good idea to take a sedative right after a beer.

It's hard to take any of your post seriously when you make a stupid claim like this. You take the prototypical enforcer and call him a pylon, have you ever seen Parros play? He's not a ******* pylon. 7 points and +9 in 26 games, a consistent physical presence and one of the best fighters in the league, not to mention one of the smartest enforcers in the league, he knows when and why to fight. He takes a regular shift on the Ducks' fourth line and contributes every night. He has outplayed anyone on our 4th line so far this year. Don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Great post. People automatically assume that our 4th line is full of great contributors. So far it hasn't been that way this season. I love Draper and Maltby but they haven't been cutting it. As for Kopecky, well you know that story.

Not all enforcers are pylons out there. Some of them put up as good a numbers as any 4th line Euro playing in the league who can handle the puck well, but can't score. There's plenty of those.

[skacore 2]

n/m

Edited December 13, 2008 by skacore

[Ratbastrd 90]

It's hard to take any of your post seriously when you make a stupid claim like this. You take the prototypical enforcer and call him a pylon, have you ever seen Parros play? He's not a ******* pylon. 7 points and +9 in 26 games, a consistent physical presence and one of the best fighters in the league, not to mention one of the smartest enforcers in the league, he knows when and why to fight. He takes a regular shift on the Ducks' fourth line and contributes every night. He has outplayed anyone on our 4th line so far this year. Don't comment on something you know nothing about.

Don't want to start a battle of wits on someone elses board, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to collect stats from NHL.com and claim knowledge you should probably read all the stats genius.

The guy logs 6 mins a night, the lowest ice time of anyone on the team. One of the lowest in the entire league. Slightly more the Jody Shelley and Boogard, so I will give you that, but that was sort of my point. It is a waste of space on the bench.

To say that he takes a regular shift, I think you meant to say he takes a regular shift a period. More often then not the guy is on the ice to fight or prevent a fight by sending a message. That is hardly a contribution to the actual game, unless it is a Ducks game or a circus you are talking about.

7 points in 26 games as a winger; impressive. Again, slightly more then a couple other goons, but contribution to the game, in what sense? Oh and please don't quote +/- to me, the most worthless stat in all of professional sports.

I believe the intent of this thread was to pose the question of whether the Wings could use an enforcer. I stated that I thought it was great if you can find someone who was not a liability on the ice. I will grant you the Wings have team talent to support a meat head on the bench, but that doesn't mean that they should. The real question is at what cost?

My impression of the Wings is that they win cups, by outworking and outplaying the other team, which I believe is the intent of the game. The lack of an enforcer doesn't appear to have hurt the team to much in that regard now has it?

Remind me never to offer a back handed compliment again.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I would rather have a handful of players that play the body and put points on the board, yet when needed, will pound the s*** out of the Prongers and Tootoos of the world.

The Sharks Ryan Clowe is a perfect example.

Yup. I'm with you. And those are the guys that the Wings really need. Do I like to see guys like Andre Roy eat their teeth for punching Hank in the back of the head? Sure. But most teams have bigger fish to fry. I would kill for a guy like Clowe on this team.

[skacore 2]

Don't want to start a battle of wits on someone elses board, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to collect stats from NHL.com and claim knowledge you should probably read all the stats genius.

The guy logs 6 mins a night, the lowest ice time of anyone on the team. One of the lowest in the entire league. Slightly more the Jody Shelley and Boogard, so I will give you that, but that was sort of my point. It is a waste of space on the bench.

To say that he takes a regular shift, I think you meant to say he takes a regular shift a period. More often then not the guy is on the ice to fight or prevent a fight by sending a message. That is hardly a contribution to the actual game, unless it is a Ducks game or a circus you are talking about.

7 points in 26 games as a winger; impressive. Again, slightly more then a couple other goons, but contribution to the game, in what sense? Oh and please don't quote +/- to me, the most worthless stat in all of professional sports.

I believe the intent of this thread was to pose the question of whether the Wings could use an enforcer. I stated that I thought it was great if you can find someone who was not a liability on the ice. I will grant you the Wings have team talent to support a meat head on the bench, but that doesn't mean that they should. The real question is at what cost?

My impression of the Wings is that they win cups, by outworking and outplaying the other team, which I believe is the intent of the game. The lack of an enforcer doesn't appear to have hurt the team to much in that regard now has it?

Remind me never to offer a back handed compliment again.

George Parros can play hockey and he isn't a pylon like you said he was. Why do you even mention me bringing up stats? I brought up stats to further prove you wrong and you act like they're irrelevant. 7 points and +9 in a limited 4th line role, while being a top notch enforcer, that isn't an effective player? Hmm...

I agree with you that the Wings need someone who can play and contribute while being an enforcer. I disagree with your example of George Parros as the stereotypical "pylon" enforcer. Jody Shelley isn't a pylon either, he's a veteran enforcer and he's been around so long for a reason, he knows how he can contribute (aside from fighting). Boogaard isn't as effective as Parros or Shelley in playing ability but he just brings intimidation to a whole new level. Not only does he have the potential to put you in the hospital with his fist, but he can skate very well for a big man and is very effective on the forecheck, you know when he's on the ice.

I think you've wandered off a bit and you're trying to argue something you aren't very familiar with. You don't have to put up 40+ points like a prime McCarty or Probert to have an effective enforcer. There's a reason those 3 "pylons" you mentioned play regularly on 3 good teams in San Jose, Anaheim, and Minnesota.

[skacore 2]

To show some leeway in this discussion, guys I consider "pylon enforcers" are: Mitch Fritz on the Isles, Brookbank on the Canes, MacIntyre on the Oil, Koci on the Bolts, and Godard on the Pens. Just to name a few.

[Ratbastrd 90]

George Parros can play hockey and he isn't a pylon like you said he was. Why do you even mention me bringing up stats? I brought up stats to further prove you wrong and you act like they're irrelevant. 7 points and +9 in a limited 4th line role, while being a top notch enforcer, that isn't an effective player? Hmm...

I agree with you that the Wings need someone who can play and contribute while being an enforcer. I disagree with your example of George Parros as the stereotypical "pylon" enforcer. Jody Shelley isn't a pylon either, he's a veteran enforcer and he's been around so long for a reason, he knows how he can contribute (aside from fighting). Boogaard isn't as effective as Parros or Shelley in playing ability but he just brings intimidation to a whole new level. Not only does he have the potential to put you in the hospital with his fist, but he can skate very well for a big man and is very effective on the forecheck, you know when he's on the ice.

I think you've wandered off a bit and you're trying to argue something you aren't very familiar with. You don't have to put up 40+ points like a prime McCarty or Probert to have an effective enforcer. There's a reason those 3 "pylons" you mentioned play regularly on 3 good teams in San Jose, Anaheim, and Minnesota.

I don't think I have wandered off at all. I agree with you that you brought up the stats trying to prove me wrong, but you are trying to prove to me that Parros is a good hockey player, which is rediculous. If Parros wasn't huge and couldn't fight, do you think for a moment he would be on that team? They didn't sign him because he can skate and is good on the forecheck.

Maybe you are right about one thing, Parros isn't a pylon, he is a crutch, proping up a geriatric group of cranky hockey players who aren't very good anymore.

Either way you are missing my point, instead choosing to insult me rather then consider what I am suggesting to you.

I am not saying the Wings need an enforcer, I am suggesting quite the opposite. I don't like the enforcer role. I think it is a waste of resource. I think that in todays league a team of tough skilled players willing to stick up for themselves will play better without an enforcer. The Sharks are ironically a good example of this.

Last year the Sharks brought Shelley in because the team wasn't considered gritty enough to win it all. The team didn't stick up for themselves, predominately against teams like the Ducks and Flames. Shelley was supposed to instill a killer instinct and or defend those who wouldn't defend themselves. All he did last year was run around getting his ass kicked by Parros, Laraque, Boogard etc. It was embarasing and did little to help the team, that still lost in the second round. Shelley was completely irrelevant in the playoffs, he was such a liability, RW rarely played him.

This year, Shelley's role as an enforcer has diminished significantly, fortunately he is playing better on the 4th line, which is great, but I would hardly consider him the best player for that position. The team is doing a much better job of sticking up for themselves individually. There are far fewer fights, which means less distractions, and amazingly enough the team is playing much better, which the stats seem to support. Shelley clearly wasn't the answer to the problem!

Do you understand me now?