Is it really a time for changing goalies and 4th liners?

[Doggy 130]

I agree.

Doggy clearly doesn't understand the purpose of a 4th line, especially with the scoring power of our 1st and 2nd. Well said UK_RedWing. You obviously watch PLENTY of hockey and understand the game; unlike Doggy.

I thought you got banned.

Apologies if I upset you but our fourth line is one of the more talented in the league. To say it's the worst is pure emotion from a bad loss. Threads like this always pop up during these times.

Outside of curiosity, how little hockey do you think the Detroit Red Wing management watches and understands?

Edited December 16, 2008 by Doggy

[uk_redwing 495]

Apologies if I upset you but our fourth line is one of the more talented in the league. To say it's the worst is pure emotion from a bad loss. Threads like this always pop up during these times.

You clearly didnt read my post properly then. I said the wings 4th line is the worst in the league in terms of production and not skill.

I clearly stated the not skill bit.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I really dont know how adding Downey or Helm to the line-up could hurt. Kopecky has a shift, skates around with his head down, and whenever he gets the puck he just chips it in, with no pressure at all. I mean Helm can skate, Downey hustles, they both hit, Downey can fight, Helm can create turnovers on the forecheck. They'd both at least add a spark, a different element. I love Maltby and Draper, but right now, they need to sit out for a few games, to get the hunger back, because they both look as bad as Kopecky most nights.

As far as goaltending, it'll come with the defence. The defence is attrocious, even Marty Brodeur had trouble with the tough shots back in his glory days. But his defence was so positionally sound, those kind of shots only got to him a couple times, and he made the save. Osgood is a great goalie, but he cant make the hard saves, every shot all game. Yes he has to be better, but the whole defence, actually TEAM defence as a whole has to get alot better before Ozzie starts improving on them stats.

[Doggy 130]

You clearly didnt read my post properly then. I said the wings 4th line is the worst in the league in terms of production and not skill.

I clearly stated the not skill bit.

Yes and you are completely off. There are less productive third lines in the league, man. I'm not saying Downey or Helm shouldn't be given a go. But come on. The worst in the league???

I'm not trying to be a prick UK, but do you seriously think that? How many non-Detroit games have you seen this year?

Edited December 16, 2008 by Doggy

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Lilja to first line. Give it to someone whose trying.

Lilja - Lidstrom

Rafalski - Stuart

Kronwall - Lebda

I said this after last nights game. Lilja should be bumped up. Hes played with Lidstrom before, he can do it now that hes playing the best hockey of his career.

[uk_redwing 495]

Yes and you are completely off. There are less productive third lines in the league, man. I'm not saying Downey or Helm shouldn't be given a go. But come on. The worst in the league???

I'm not trying to be a prick UK, but do you seriously think that? How many non-Detroit games have you seen this year?

Well the stats in the other thread show theres alot of 4th line productivity going on, and thats just from the "goons."

And Ive seen about 50 (rough estimate) non-detroit games so far this season to answer your question.

Do I really need to drag out Draper Maltby and Kopecky's stats and compare them with other 4th lines? Cos I really cant be bothered to do that...actually I cant be bothered to do it either way. Im lazy.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Its time to offer Kirk Maltby the "Joey Kocur video coach" option, and hire Drapes as a consultant or as a faceoff specialst coach.

While Maltby and Draper aren't useless, they're basically not doing anything any other player can't do. Kopecky should be waived, Maltby should be scratched, and Draper should stay, as a winger in a faceoff/Pking role only.

I really think its time people should start to take the lack of an energy line seriously. We have 3 scoring lines and the Almost Useless Line. If you don't think the lack of a true, checking, energy line is going to come back and bite us in the ass in the playoffs, you are dead wrong. For a team whos #1 problem is work ethic, energy, and motivation, a proper energy line is the best and simplest step in the right direction.

[schulzte 18]

At the end of play Monday, Chris Osgood was tied for worst save percentage of any goaltender in the NHL. The Red Wings are giving up the sixth most goals against in the league (3.1), while allowing the third least shots in the league (27). By the numbers, this is not a defensive problem; this is a goaltending problem. Ty Conklin's numbers are better, but certainly not among the top half of NHL goalies. These are not regular season problems, but they are playoff problems if Osgood doesn't turn it around.

We learned last year that you play the goalie who is playing best at the time. Right now, that is Conklin. The Wings don't have to demote Osgood now, but if these numbers are similar in March, I'd be making Conklin my #1 goalie.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I thought you got banned.

Apologies if I upset you but our fourth line is one of the more talented in the league. To say it's the worst is pure emotion from a bad loss. Threads like this always pop up during these times.

Outside of curiosity, how little hockey do you think the Detroit Red Wing management watches and understands?

I'm guessing the last time you saw the Wings play was in 2002. Our 4th line has done nothing all year, either statistically or from a physicality standpoint.

2 of those guys are players I love, but at this point they really have no value other than sentimental value. The talent is gone.

[Shaman 713]

Ok, time for me to solve all of detroits problems (again). We move Samuelson, Flipula and Kopekcy for a bunch of picks, use that cap space to bring up Ericcson, Leino, Helm, and then we put Downey in a box, marked 'khl' and poke a couple air holes in it, so people will stop talking about him already.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I would say no to the goalies and absolutely to a change on the fourth line. There's not much we can do about the goalies. They will get better when the defense does. Jimmy Howard isn't going to solve the problem at the moment.

I posted this in the GDT last night, but our fourth line is useless. Darren Helm needs to get called up immediately. Kopecky is awful. I love Draper and Maltby, but they have been far from impressive this season. The fourth line should provide energy. The Red Wings fourth line does just the opposite - they spend the whole shift chasing the puck in their own zone. Helm is too good to be playing at Grand Rapids, while current players on the roster aren't held accountable for their poor play. This team currently needs energy and Darren Helm brings that every shift. Bench Kopecky and play Helm.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Ok, time for me to solve all of detroits problems (again). We move Samuelson, Flipula and Kopekcy for a bunch of picks, use that cap space to bring up Ericcson, Leino, Helm, and then we put Downey in a box, marked 'khl' and poke a couple air holes in it, so people will stop talking about him already.

I don't really see the value in that. I'd take a different approach. We need to trade some bigger names, as a benefit to us this season - in terms of players who have more fight in their game - and to the future.

1. Any team: Lebda(.65)

DET: 4th/5th round pick

2. OTT: Kronwall(3), Kopecky(.5)

DET: Volchenkov(2.5), Neil(1.1)

Now, realistically, neither of these trades happen for two reasons. 1) Holland NEVER makes trades that involve any semblance of a risk 2) Hossa would be pissed if we traded his best bud Kopecky, another reason way our loyalty factor is screwing us over.

BUT if by chance Holland did have the balls to make a move, then the Wings have more cap flexibility, more energy and physicality up front, and more physicality (yes, Volchenkov is more physical than Kronwall) and a greater defensive presence. Volchenkov is one of the best young shutdown Dmen in the league and a type of player that Detroit hasn't seen since Fischer ca. '02. Hes 11th in the league in hits with 82 and 4th in the league in blocked shots with 78 - both in just 27 games.

The Wings ship out 4.15 in salary, and take on 3.6M in salary. That allows Detroit room to either 1) Bench Maltby and bring up Helm or 2) Bench Meech (who would be splitting games with Cheli in place of Lebda) and bring up Ericsson. Or both, if the nhlscap projections are correct and we have an extra 375k in addition to the 550k we'd gain in a trade like this.

So basically, then you have a team that is assembled as follows:

Homer - Datsyuk - Hossa

Hudler - Hank - Franzen

Sammy - Flip - Cleary

Neil - Helm - Draper

Maltby

Lidstrom - Volchenkov

Rafalski - Stuart

Lilja - Ericsson

Chelios - Meech

Osgood

Conklin

If you ask me, thats an even deeper, bigger, more physical, younger, hungrier, better defensively, more energetic lineup than the one we have now.

Edited December 17, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Ok, time for me to solve all of detroits problems (again). We move Samuelson, Flipula and Kopekcy for a bunch of picks, use that cap space to bring up Ericcson, Leino, Helm, and then we put Downey in a box, marked 'khl' and poke a couple air holes in it, so people will stop talking about him already.

So basically we should trade 3 soft euros for 3 more euros? Wow, what a totally wonderful idea on your part.......NOT!!!

We should put you in a box named NHL2k9, because that seems to be where you got the motivation for this great idea. Leave Downey out of this.

Also, how stupid would Holland look after signing Flip for $3 million and then trading him for some draft pick? It would never happen.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

So basically we should trade 3 soft euros for 3 more euros? Wow, what a totally wonderful idea on your part.......NOT!!!

We should put you in a box named NHL2k9, because that seems to be where you got the motivation for this great idea. Leave Downey out of this.

Also, how stupid would Holland look after signing Flip for $3 million and then trading him for some draft pick? It would never happen.

I agree with most of your post, but Helm is neither a Euro, nor soft.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Also, how stupid would Holland look after signing Flip for $3 million and then trading him for some draft pick? It would never happen.

Depends on the draft pick.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Ok, time for me to solve all of detroits problems (again). We move Samuelson, Flipula and Kopekcy for a bunch of picks, use that cap space to bring up Ericcson, Leino, Helm, and then we put Downey in a box, marked 'khl' and poke a couple air holes in it, so people will stop talking about him already.

Haha, you say this now. If Downs got a chance to come out, and give 110% every shift, you'd be singing a different tune. And honestly, we'd probably be better off if we had Helm and Leino instead of Flip and Kopecky, Sammy wont be moved, so no comment there.

[Doggy 130]

I'm guessing the last time you saw the Wings play was in 2002. Our 4th line has done nothing all year, either statistically or from a physicality standpoint.

2 of those guys are players I love, but at this point they really have no value other than sentimental value. The talent is gone.

And your basis for this statement is what? They don't fight like Probert and don't blow you as well as Lilja? You fight fans are shocking. Can't you just go watch boxing?

[cnot19 191]

I agree our fourth line needs to be shaken up. Helm should be the first in line to come up followed by abdelkader and downey. I look at alot of other team's fourth lines and they seem to be chipping the puck in the other teams zone and sustaining pressure thourhg hard skating and physical play. I have seen glimpses of this form the wings but not nearly enough to warrent thier ice time.

[skacore 2]

And your basis for this statement is what? They don't fight like Probert and don't blow you as well as Lilja? You fight fans are shocking. Can't you just go watch boxing?

Because they're horrible? Instead of thinking up one-liners why don't you post something that's relevant to the discussion? Draper, Maltby, and Kopecky have been bad this year. They rarely chip in offensively, they don't shut down top lines, they aren't physical. They are all minus players, our PK is awful, and our goals against is awful. Our goals for is fine, our PP is incredible. The biggest holes in this team are solid defense (as a unit), a solid PK, and consistent physical play. Most teams use their bottom 6 to achieve those accomplishments.

[Doggy 130]

Because they're horrible? Instead of thinking up one-liners why don't you post something that's relevant to the discussion? Draper, Maltby, and Kopecky have been bad this year. They rarely chip in offensively, they don't shut down top lines, they aren't physical. They are all minus players, our PK is awful, and our goals against is awful. Our goals for is fine, our PP is incredible. The biggest holes in this team are solid defense (as a unit), a solid PK, and consistent physical play. Most teams use their bottom 6 to achieve those accomplishments.

Most teams fourth lines consist of players that aren't NHL calibre. This is what I am arguing. Pretty much every single team in the league would be happy to have Maltby, Draper and Kopecky on their 4th. I agree we need to get more physical. However, Maltby and Draper are very capable PKers while not many teams use 4th liners in the PK.

Again, I have no problem with mixing it up. Bring in Downey or Helm if we can. I'm a big fan of both. But to say our fourth line is the worst in the league is pure hyperbole. You guys get so emotional when we lose.

Would you prefer Jon Sim, Richard Park and Tim Jackman? How 'bout Boulton, Crabb and Slater from Atlanta? Wanna try Matthias, Repik and Tarnasky on for size? Didn't think so. Come on, guys. Get real.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Doggy

[CrossoverThrash 0]

I don't really see the value in that. I'd take a different approach. We need to trade some bigger names, as a benefit to us this season - in terms of players who have more fight in their game - and to the future.

1. Any team: Lebda(.65)

DET: 4th/5th round pick

2. OTT: Kronwall(3), Kopecky(.5)

DET: Volchenkov(2.5), Neil(1.1)

Now, realistically, neither of these trades happen for two reasons. 1) Holland NEVER makes trades that involve any semblance of a risk 2) Hossa would be pissed if we traded his best bud Kopecky, another reason way our loyalty factor is screwing us over.

BUT if by chance Holland did have the balls to make a move, then the Wings have more cap flexibility, more energy and physicality up front, and more physicality (yes, Volchenkov is more physical than Kronwall) and a greater defensive presence. Volchenkov is one of the best young shutdown Dmen in the league and a type of player that Detroit hasn't seen since Fischer ca. '02. Hes 11th in the league in hits with 82 and 4th in the league in blocked shots with 78 - both in just 27 games.

The Wings ship out 4.15 in salary, and take on 3.6M in salary. That allows Detroit room to either 1) Bench Maltby and bring up Helm or 2) Bench Meech (who would be splitting games with Cheli in place of Lebda) and bring up Ericsson. Or both, if the nhlscap projections are correct and we have an extra 375k in addition to the 550k we'd gain in a trade like this.

So basically, then you have a team that is assembled as follows:

Homer - Datsyuk - Hossa

Hudler - Hank - Franzen

Sammy - Flip - Cleary

Neil - Helm - Draper

Maltby

Lidstrom - Volchenkov

Rafalski - Stuart

Lilja - Ericsson

Chelios - Meech

Osgood

Conklin

If you ask me, thats an even deeper, bigger, more physical, younger, hungrier, better defensively, more energetic lineup than the one we have now.

Volchenkov always gets hurt in the early rounds of the playoffs trying to block sourray slapshots with his face

[skacore 2]

Would you prefer Jon Sim, Richard Park and Tim Jackman? How 'bout Boulton, Crabb and Slater from Atlanta? Wanna try Matthias, Repik and Tarnasky on for size? Didn't think so. Come on, guys. Get real.

Sure I'd take Park-Sim-Jackman and Boulton-Slater-Crabb over our current 4th line. They'd be more physical, much more energy, less expensive, those are all givens. Their offensive production can only be better and they can't do much worse +/- wise.

And those are two of the worst teams in the league.

But instead how about we use one we already have in the system:

Abdelkader-Helm-Downey

[Doggy 130]

Sure I'd take Park-Sim-Jackman and Boulton-Slater-Crabb over our current 4th line. They'd be more physical, much more energy, less expensive, those are all givens. Their offensive production can only be better and they can't do much worse +/- wise.

Maybe I'm just biased towards Draper and Maltby, but I wouldn't take those guys. No way.

But instead how about we use one we already have in the system:

Abdelkader-Helm-Downey

Yeah, I'm fine with giving them a go.

[Guest MrSandMan]

Sure I'd take Park-Sim-Jackman and Boulton-Slater-Crabb over our current 4th line. They'd be more physical, much more energy, less expensive, those are all givens. Their offensive production can only be better and they can't do much worse +/- wise.

And those are two of the worst teams in the league.

But instead how about we use one we already have in the system:

Abdelkader-Helm-Downey

Get 'em here for Thurday's game

[Aussie_Wing 354]

I think Kopecky has been one of the few Wings this year who have been playing with heart, and at his best. As of right now I'd rather send Draper, Maltby or even Filppula back to the minors before Kopecky.

Oh dear.