Food for thought: Interesting Statistics that speak volumes

[sureWhyNot 19]

OK, I will keep this short and focused on pure statistics. There has been a ton of debate regarding team toughness, which unfortunately results in the same 'ole "do we need an enforcer" debate.

One thing that dawned on me as I would read through the various threads dealing with the topic is that those who believe we do not have a toughness issue constantly revert too the stance that those who question our toughness and/or feel we need to add some want to "goon it up", and "are stupid and want a team full of Boogard's", etc., etc.

I am somewhat puzzled at how the assertion that the Wings need to add some toughness to the lineup is the equivalent to calling for a team full of goons, or the desire to have a bunch of Boogard's instead of real hockey players.

Anyways, I am starting to go on way too long here so I will get to the point of the post. Below you will see a list of Wings, their point totals for the season and the number of games they have been in the lineup for. Then below that you will see a list of players who make up the league leaders in fighting majors (remember, they are the leaders, if was going to get into guys down the list 3-4 FM but there are too many) as well as their point totals on the year & ammount of games played.

These may surprise some of those who conflate "toughness" and "willingness to drop the mitts from time to time" with "goonery", and "enforcers=worthless hockey players."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kopecky: 1 Goal; 3 Assists (29 Games)

Stuart: 0 Goals; 2 Assists (28 Games)

Draper: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (29 Games)

Meech: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (15 Games)

Maltby: 2 Goals; 2 Assists (27 Games)

Lebda: 2 Goals; 3 Assists (26 Games)

______________________________________

B. Prust: 1 Goal; 1 Assists; 11 FM (21 Games)

D. Carcillo: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 8 FM (25 Games)

D. Clarkson: 5 Goals; 4 Assists; 8 FM (26 Games)

C. Janssen: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 8 FM (23 Games)

J. Boll: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 10 FM (21 Games)

B.J. Crombeen: 7 Goals; 6 Assists; 8 FM (16 Games)

I. Laperriere: 4 Goals; 8 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

G. Parros: 3 Goals; 5 Assists; 10 FM (27 Games)

Sh. Thornton: 1 Goal; 3 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

A. Asham: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (28 Games)

E. Boulton: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (25 Games)

D.Hordichuk: 3 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (26 Games)

C. Neil: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (21 Games)

C. Orr: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (32 Games)

J. Shelley: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (27 Games)

K. Barch: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 6 FM (28 Games)

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Take these numbers however you want, that's completely up too you. But I think it is very clear that there is a difference b/t worthless goon and guy who scraps from time to time in regards to their contribution to the teams success.

This is not arguing anything, the purpose is to illustrate that when people on the boards call for more toughness, or an "enforcer", the response kinda needs to be something different then claiming that those individuals "want a team full of goons" because it implies that "goons" are worthless, have no skill, and offer nothing else then meaningless fights. Well, if these so called "goons" (ya know the guys listed above with numbers comparable to the Wings listed above them) AKA the league leaders in FM's, then we have issues with a almost a quarter of our roster contributing the same "worthless" efforts as the said "goons".

Bah, this turned into a lot longer project then I wanted it too, and I apologize for those who are annoyed by it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

[AtomicPunk 296]

Hey, give me a team full of Shanahans and Neelys and Scott Stevens and Vladdys and Wendel Clarks and Lindros in his prime, players with size, SKILL, and SPEED who can SCORE AND knock a guy on his ass every shift.

The problem is, the ones in the league now that are tough are lacking the skills. They are very few and far between these days. Show me a guy with lots of PIMs that is also in the Top 40 in scoring.

[ComradeWasabi 109]

Let's not pretend that the players you listed are comparable. To be sure, their current offensive production is similar; but for one thing, the Wings players listed are expected to produce a little more than they are (at least I think so) and second, I would rather have any of the Wings players listed on the ice in the final minute, up by one goal, than any of the "tough guys" below.

[CrossCheck24 2]

I like your argument, but I would look at their plus minus of these players as well. I haven't looked but in my mind it would make or break your argument

Hey, give me a team full of Shanahans and Neelys and Scott Stevens and Vladdys and Wendel Clarks and Lindros in his prime, players with size, SKILL, and SPEED who can SCORE AND knock a guy on his ass every shift.

The problem is, the ones in the league now that are tough are lacking the skills. They are very few and far between these days. Show me a guy with lots of PIMs that is also in the Top 40 in scoring.

And I would like to poop gold, his argument is that the wings have the same production out of non-fighting players as other teams get out of their fighters.

[AtomicPunk 296]

Hey, he is picking on some of my favorite targets! But there are some fans who want to have a George Parros on their roster, I'm not one of them. Give me a guy who dresses for every playoff game and isn't a liability on the ice, scores some goals, and I'm in.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Let's not pretend that the players you listed are comparable. To be sure, their current offensive production is similar; but for one thing, the Wings players listed are expected to produce a little more than they are (at least I think so) and second, I would rather have any of the Wings players listed on the ice in the final minute, up by one goal, than any of the "tough guys" below.

Ummm, I kinda agree with your argument in the sense that Brad Stuart is a hell of a lot more important, thus uncompariable, to the guys on the list and even Draper to some extent. But other then that, no I do not agree with you at all.

I am sure you would rather have the Wings players, but again, this was shut the ppl up who automatically conflate "enforcers" with "worthless goons". By comparing a chunk of our team with the league leaders in fighting it does 1 of 2 things.

1) Shows that the Wings with comparable stats are as worthless as the goons who mirror if not exceed them in point contribution.

or

2) Illustrates that the Wings players listed are just as "worthless" as the "goons" people here loathe so much with the only difference being the "worthless" Red Wings don't fight either.

I think it's also important to point out that a lot of the guys I compared to the Wings on the list above play for bad teams (who knows what they would put up, probably not much more, but who knows), and a lot of the guys above get quite a bit less ice time per night then the Wings players listed.

That's all.

[clutchngrab 12]

Yeah, and how many of these guys are in the box when the opposing team scores the game winning goal. Give me that stat smart guy.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Hey, he is picking on some of my favorite targets! But there are some fans who want to have a George Parros on their roster, I'm not one of them. Give me a guy who dresses for every playoff game and isn't a liability on the ice, scores some goals, and I'm in.

Ha ha, I love the whole "who isn't a liability" argument - mainly because it is one that the "our toughness is fine as is" and "enforcers are goons and worthless - we don't want one" crowd". Like the majority of this groups arguments, it is not backed up by anything resembling FACT.

So, to prove this I will share some numbers (yes, statistics, not opinion). Tell me what ya think:

---------------------------------------------

Kopecky: -7

Stuart: -4

Draper: -11

Meech: -4

Maltby: -4

Lebda: -3

______________________________________

B. Prust: -4

D. Carcillo: -6

D. Clarkson: +1

C. Janssen: -4

J. Boll: -2

B.J. Crombeen: 0 (Even)

I. Laperriere: +6

G. Parros: +10

Sh. Thornton: 0 (Even)

A. Asham: -1

E. Boulton: -1

D.Hordichuk: +4

C. Neil: -7

C. Orr: -2

J. Shelley: 0 (Even)

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So you can process that however you want, you can use whatever rationalization to make your argument - its all fine, I just think it's important that the numbers are out there.

Also, I don't want you thinking I am trying to prove that the league leaders in fighting are by any means all stars, I'm not. I am trying to show that enforcers are not completely "worthless", well at least not all of them, they are putting up the same numbers (some better, some worse - but for the most part the same) as quite a few of our guys, the only difference is that they also offer an aspect that our guys don't -- toughness.

Oh, and in response to your "blah blah blah show me how many of those guys are in the top 40 scoring" comment - First of all please bro. None of the league leaders in fighting are in the top 40 scoring, and if you are waiting for a guy who is - well, unfortunately you will be waiting a very long time.

However there is quite a few players in the top 40 in overall points who have a FM here and there (please not the numbers below are all from this year alone -- NOT carreer, this year only):

R. Getzlaf (2), J. Thorton (2), M. Richards (2), S. Doan (1), Iginla (2), C. Perry (2), R. Clowe (3), B. Gionta (1), I. Kovalchuk (1), S. Weber (2), V. Lecavalier (1), etc. (I am tired as hell so I stopped looking.) It's also important to note there is a while other group of individuals (Arnott, D. Brown, etc) who have FM this year.

Cheers and good night...

Edited December 16, 2008 by sureWhyNot

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I used to be on the we need an enforcer bandwagon when we were getting eliminated in the first and second rounds for quite a few years there (also, because guys like Datsyuk would completely disappear in the playoffs). However, I think that a lot of our guys have gotten a lot grittier than they were 3-5 years ago. I don't ever remember Datsyuk hitting and now I see him mixing it up a lot, so in that respect I am happy.

I would like to add from an entertainment standpoint I would love to see DMac in the lineup every night.

[b.shanafan14 733]

I personally have thought our 4th line was going through the motions since this season began and even a lot of last season. Our problem right now is players who have been around forever, who you'd think would be the energy line the fourth line is meant to be, seem to be just going through the motions. Yeah Draper is great on faceoffs and great in the lockerroom, but at what point do you tell him to sit a game. Worked for a few weeks when Maltby was benched. Draper seems so lackadaisical out there most nights and doesn't seem to use his speed at all.

We don't need a tough guy as much as we just need someone who is gonna bust ass and not phone it in.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Take Carcillo and Neil out of the goon category, at least carcillo, the man is a good player, he's the player not on the wings i most want ot have. He would take far less penalties here and contribute far more offensively.

[maltbyrocks18 0]

Show me a guy with lots of PIMs that is also in the Top 40 in scoring.

that's a lofty goal there, herb. With that requirement, marian hossa is not even good enough with his production last season. I agree you don't see the top goal scorers in the league leading the league with pentaly minutes, but i don't think that was the guy who made this thread's point.

fourthliners who have been labeled as goons around the league, have been producing points just as much as our fourth line "talents". i feel that if your fourth liner won't surpass 5 goals on the season any way, he might as well be a guy that can support the team with some rough and tuff play whether it is checking or fighting or both.

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

Take Carcillo and Neil out of the goon category, at least carcillo, the man is a good player, he's the player not on the wings i most want ot have. He would take far less penalties here and contribute far more offensively.

Ditto, I'd take Carcillo in a heartbeat.

[Holmstrom96 347]

What we need is a checking line that can.... check?

I love Draper, Maltby, and McCarty. However, we need to get rid of McCarty. He's a goon that's too old to fight, so he does ZERO for us. Maltby is good at penalty killing and is a great defensive forward. However, Maltby doesn't check, and the refs don't buy his crap anymore, so he doesn't draw the penalties like he used to.

We don't need goons, we need size. Datsyuk does a lot of checking, but he doesn't have the size. We need someone who can check hard and score. We need more Kronwalls!

Don't pick on Stuart and Lebda for not scoring much, you have to remember they're defensemen. Stuart I think does a great job checking when he's out there.

Unfortunatly the NHL is in no doubt somewhere in their HQ planning on taking fighting out of the game completly, and it will be a shame. I loved watching one of our best scores, Shanahan, drop the gloves when a team started getting scrappy. Fighting is a part of hockey. Is it barbaric and brutal? Sure, that's why we like it. But we need actual checkers more than we need a Joey Kocur or a Stu Grimson.

[chrisdetroit 189]

So you went and picked our lowest scoring guys and made a comparison to the leagues enforcers. From this you concluded that the enforcers are as skilled as our lowest scoring guys?

What is your point?

Lilja and Stewart are never going to be big scorers but that's not what we have them for. They are tough stay at home defensemen who hit and block shots. No way I would trade either one for an enforcer.

you are misquoting stats to fit you argument.

[Bluedevils_13 0]

Take Carcillo and Neil out of the goon category, at least carcillo, the man is a good player, he's the player not on the wings i most want ot have. He would take far less penalties here and contribute far more offensively.

Would you take Carcillo over Lucic?

I think I'd take Lucic.

[uk_redwing 495]

So you went and picked our lowest scoring guys and made a comparison to the leagues enforcers. From this you concluded that the enforcers are as skilled as our lowest scoring guys?

He compared our 4th line players, to other 4th line players who we consider too "goon"-ish and skill-less to play for Detroit, in terms of production. And showed they produce alot more.

One other thing to consider with these "goons" is that alot of them are from teams from lower down the conference, where regualtion losses happen every other game. So take that into factor, and it shows how impressive theyve performed, and also how woeful our 4th line is.

[Holmstrom96 347]

also how woeful our 4th line is.

Agreed. Our fourth line stinks. However, I still think Draper is freaking awesome. Draper does stuff that statistics like "Goals" and "Assists" don't capture. If we put better talent with him (ditch McCarty and Maltby) we can make a good 4th scoring line. Or, move Draper up to the third line and get some people who can actually check.

[Frozen-Man 144]

He compared our 4th line players, to other 4th line players who we consider too "goon"-ish and skill-less to play for Detroit, in terms of production. And showed they produce alot more.

One other thing to consider with these "goons" is that alot of them are from teams from lower down the conference, where regualtion losses happen every other game. So take that into factor, and it shows how impressive theyve performed, and also how woeful our 4th line is.

Amazing, we have 6 guys on our 4th line? He was comparing more than just 4th line guys. Also, other factors always have to be considered, what are the players salaries, are they young guys who are due to get big or semi-big raises soon, are they draft picks / RFA's whose price may go up soon, what is their average TOI which can manipulate point comparison, how often do they put their teams short handed (dumb penalties), can they play more than just 5 on 5 (are they good penalty killers), are they good open ice hitter who cause the other team problems, what is their face off percentage (for the center and the back up in case he is tossed), etc. There are many aspects of those players that have to be looked at, I mean Pharros only plays 6:07 per game, which means he got his points with less ice time but it also means that he doesn't play much and other guys have to have to play more each night because that GREAT Ducks 4th line only plays 6 minutes per game.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Frozen-Man

[sureWhyNot 19]

I used to be on the we need an enforcer bandwagon when we were getting eliminated in the first and second rounds for quite a few years there (also, because guys like Datsyuk would completely disappear in the playoffs). However, I think that a lot of our guys have gotten a lot grittier than they were 3-5 years ago. I don't ever remember Datsyuk hitting and now I see him mixing it up a lot, so in that respect I am happy.

I would like to add from an entertainment standpoint I would love to see DMac in the lineup every night.

Yet you seem to forget that we also dressed Downey and Drake the entire year, giving us a heap load of toughness throughout the year that we ended up not getting eliminated in the first or the second round.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Would you take Carcillo over Lucic?

I think I'd take Lucic.

Idk, Carcillo is a one man wrecking crew, but Lucic is putting up good points, i think Carcillo would do the same if he was on say a line with Pavel and hank, Lucic is of course playing wiht Kessel and savard. Id love to see these two fight although i think Carcillo would be the one roughing lucic up.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Unfortunatly the NHL is in no doubt somewhere in their HQ planning on taking fighting out of the game completly, and it will be a shame. I loved watching one of our best scores, Shanahan, drop the gloves when a team started getting scrappy. Fighting is a part of hockey. Is it barbaric and brutal? Sure, that's why we like it. But we need actual checkers more than we need a Joey Kocur or a Stu Grimson.

You are actually pretty far off base -- fighting in the NHL is up for the third consecutive year in a row now, and it is pretty clear that the instigator penalty will be banished in the near future (1-3 years).

Please stop throwing names out when you have no clue what you are tlaking about. Kocur was a hell of a player, and did more for this team then half the guys on the roster will come close too.

[Louisville 112]

Would you take Carcillo over Lucic?

I think I'd take Lucic.

Every team in the league would take Lucic.

[sureWhyNot 19]

So you went and picked our lowest scoring guys and made a comparison to the leagues enforcers. From this you concluded that the enforcers are as skilled as our lowest scoring guys?

What is your point?

Lilja and Stewart are never going to be big scorers but that's not what we have them for. They are tough stay at home defensemen who hit and block shots. No way I would trade either one for an enforcer.

you are misquoting stats to fit you argument.

You are as dense as they come bud. Read my posts and you will see what my point was. Also, and this goes back to my first point READ my posts before replying -- Lilja is not on the list, not because he has a ton of goals (because that's the only category I included in the analysis and all -- riiight) but b/c of his +/-, assists, hits, etc.

[Louisville 112]

Idk, Carcillo is a one man wrecking crew, but Lucic is putting up good points, i think Carcillo would do the same if he was on say a line with Pavel and hank, Lucic is of course playing wiht Kessel and savard. Id love to see these two fight although i think Carcillo would be the one roughing lucic up.

Whoa, whoa, whoa

First of all, Carcillo would not put up numbers close to Lucic, and if he did it would only be because he played on a line with Pavel and Hank as you suggest. Savard and Kessel aren't Datsyuk and Zetterberg either.

Also, I don't see where you get your logic that 6'0 205lb. Carcillo would be "the one roughing up" 6'4 220lb. Lucic? Don't begin to tell me Carcillo is tougher either because Lucic beats the s*** out of people.

My point? Lucic is a top line player and Carcillo is a third line agitator. Lucic all the way.