Franzen or Hossa?

[Datsyerberger 279]

Bottom line, to say that Hossa is without doubt the better forward than Zetterberg is beyond a joke.

No arguments here.

[steveyzerman 0]

Zetterberg is Jesus.

Zetterberg will be signed. & Kenny will TRY to sign all three. & I'm not getting my hopes up, but if anyone can do it, Kenny's that man.

Now, I listened to the interview & I believe he used the words "we can sign 2 out of the 3 comfortably." Hey, I can live uncomfortably for a year. Kenny, make it happen.

Edited December 31, 2008 by steveyzerman

[lets go pavel 2]

You're deliberately taking things out of context because you can't actually defend your points. Lidstrom is overrated because we've never seen this team play without him for a long period of time, EXCEPT 06-07 when every defenseman was injured and Lilja was our #1 guy. That was used as the "Doom and gloom" aspect of losing Lidstrom.

Honestly, I don't think this team will miss a beat when Lidstrom retires. This isn't 2002, his role on the PP is much different, he takes wrist shots for Homer to tip, as opposed to standing on the right point and ripping them glove side.

These same arguments happened at the thought of losing Yzerman before Datsyuk and Zetterberg came around. Guess what? The team kept on moving and perform at a higher level than even the 2002 team. You can't throw your entire bankroll at the feet of a 35 + year old player, even Nick Lidstrom.

The entire concept of "Loyalty" and holding onto players past their worth is what ruins prospects and leads to having tons of RFA because they spend four years in the minors waiting for a spot that a veteran is keeping warm.

The payroll bar should be Datsyuk, until he is outperformed, no one should get paid higher.

How am I taking anything out of context? You keep saying Lids is overrated because we've never seen the team without him, but what does that have to do with anything? Your whole argument that he is overrated is based upon the presumption that none of us think we can live without Lidstrom, and that isn't the case. You are the only one bringing that up. Why? My opinion of Lidstrom is based on the outstanding, Norris-caliber defense, incredible on-ice intelligence, and top-tier offense that he has been bringing day in and day out for years.

Edited December 31, 2008 by lets go pavel

[blikst 1]

I took what Holland said a little differantly. This is my perception... I think he said he is having difficulty signing Zetterberg. Short term? Long term? Money, players want to get paid. That to me is saying that Z wants more then Lids. Completely unacceptable in my opinion. Z should not make more then Dats and if he does only because we signed Dats 2 years ago and the cap was differant. I just think Z wants to much and the wings have options. I would love to keep Z but I would rather keep Hossa and Franzen. Idealy i would keep Hossa and Z but understand that is impossible. So that is just my take. Mr. Face of the Wings is thinking more Zetterberg and less Red Wings...

Okay murder me....

Are you honestly thinking Hossa would want less that Zetterberg? Unless Zetterberg completely stonewalls Holland I'm sure they will work out a deal.

If Zetterberg wouldn't be in a little slump right now, we wouldn't be having this disscusion imo.

Edited December 31, 2008 by blikst

[Datsyerberger 279]

Warning: Proclaiming Lidstrom is overrated on this board may make your entire argument look idiotic.

[Zune 0]

"Zune," You joined this forum today just to argue that Lidstrom is not an offensive defenseman and Z doesnt deserve more than 6.4 mil a year. In a thread about resigning Franzen or Hossa.

You cant honestly believe Datsyuk is a better candidate for captain than Z is.....

Yeah dats gives the best interviews, but tell me "Zune," WTF DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH CAPTAINING A TEAM?

Z will be our captain when our most valuable player (Lidstrom) hangs his skates, and Im sure at least 90% of all wings fans want this to happen.

And btw, Lids is a TREAT to watch, he isnt boring. A guy will come skating down the ice at full speed, all 220 pounds of him, standing at 6'5 and Lids skates to him and after a quick little boink the puck is knocked off his stick and the wings are rolling in 5th gear the other way. No one in the game right now is better at knocking the puck off the stick without having to play as much of the body as Lids does. Its amazing.

Im asking you, what does Zetterberg have that Datsyuk doesn't? What makes Zetterberg a better candidate for captain other than the fact Yzerman may or may not have said something along the lines years ago or that Ken Daniels seemingly repeats it along with everything else in his brain per game.

I can respect a decent argument but none have been presented. Zetterberg has been bested by Datsyuk year in and year out. If Yzerman and Lidstrom can "lead by example", why can't Datsyuk?

The only time the argument against Datsyuk was even valid was during his playoff struggles, before the seven year deal and before the Selke. Now all of the things people used to somehow make Zetterberg seem more appealing, (Better defensive play, better at faceoffs, shows up in the playoffs, hits more, etc), all goes out the window.

This isn't about downplaying Zetterberg, hes the second best player on the team, apparently, thats impossible to comprehend.

It seems pointless to spend $8 + million on a second line center, even with his defensive play. The only way he can justify such a contract would be scoring 50 goals THIS season or at the very least leading the team in scoring. Hes playing with Franzen and Hossa, theres no reason he can't get it done. Especially when Datsyuk has 9 points in three games playing with Homer and anyone else they throw at him.

Its been stated many times in this thread, Datsyuk is more valuable because he makes the players around him better. While Zetterberg is at his best playing with a playmaker like Datsyuk.

At this point the argument for Z being captain is because he has a cool beard. Thats the strongest point ive heard so far.

The real question is how many years does Datsyuk have to lead the team in scoring before hes done playing second fiddle?

[Zune 0]

Are you honestly thinking Hossa would want less that Zetterberg? Unless Zetterberg completely stonewalls Holland I'm sure they will work out a deal.

If Zetterberg wouldn't be in a little slump right now, we wouldn't be having this disscusion imo.

Z has said he wants to finish his career in Detroit. Hes the reigning Conn Smythe Winner and the last time that happened in a contract year, Brad Richards got an insane contract. Coupled with the fact that Z has in fact been underpaid, its the worst of all situations from a business perspective.

Does it really make sense to give Zetterberg a ten year deal? Making $2 million more than the team scoring leader? Or the ungodly Nick Lidstrom?

I appreciate Z for what he is. A good center but he needs to be paired with certain players to succeed. And if you want a repeat of the last season and a half, he needs to be paired with Datsyuk. On the other hand Datsyuk can be paired with anyone and finish with 85 or more points.

In my eyes, when you have Flip making three million per season on the third line and hes shown he can center the 2nd line, its an obvious choice of Franzen + Hossa over Zetterberg.

Datsyuk is wasted playing LW, even if it looks good, hes too good of a faceoff man to be playing wing.

[Datsyerberger 279]

The real question is how many years does Datsyuk have to lead the team in scoring before hes done playing second fiddle?

Please check Yzerman in the 90s/early 2000. Was he unworthy of the Captaincy because he scored less than Fedorov? Or less Selkes. Maybe Shanahan should have been Captain, because he had fighting AND grit AND goalscoring...!

There are qualities that we, as fans, can not observe -- likely the same qualities that continually result in hints from the Wings organization that Zetterberg is the future leader of the Wings.

[Zune 0]

How am I taking anything out of context? You keep saying Lids is overrated because we've never seen the team without him, but what does that have to do with anything? Your whole argument that he is overrated is based upon the presumption that none of us think we can live without Lidstrom, and that isn't the case. You are the only one bringing that up. Why? My opinion of Lidstrom is based on the outstanding, Norris-caliber defense, incredible on-ice intelligence, and top-tier offense that he has been bringing day in and day out for years.

I never said Lidstrom's ability was overrated. His worth to the team is. Like I said, hes so consistent that life without him seems impossible, when in fact we saw a glimpse of it last night and really, it wasn't all too terrible.

Post lockout, people thought the Wings would have trouble making the playoffs without the likes of Yzerman, Shanahan and Fedorov and nothing changed. The same will hold true with Lidstrom. The collective talent of this team is more important than anyone player, including Nick.

[Zune 0]

Please check Yzerman in the 90s/early 2000. Was he unworthy of the Captaincy because he scored less than Fedorov? Or less Selkes. Maybe Shanahan should have been Captain, because he had fighting AND grit AND goalscoring...!

There are qualities that we, as fans, can not observe -- likely the same qualities that continually result in hints from the Wings organization that Zetterberg is the future leader of the Wings.

What cannot be observed on the television? Work ethic? Locker room presence? Getting along with teammates?

Datsyuk isn't Terrell Owens, he isn't a locker room cancer that the Wings keep around because he produces.

You're dealing vagaries because you have no argument. Its a very simple question, what does Zetterberg have that Datsyuk does not?

[lets go pavel 2]

I never said Lidstrom's ability was overrated. His worth to the team is. Like I said, hes so consistent that life without him seems impossible, when in fact we saw a glimpse of it last night and really, it wasn't all too terrible.

Post lockout, people thought the Wings would have trouble making the playoffs without the likes of Yzerman, Shanahan and Fedorov and nothing changed. The same will hold true with Lidstrom. The collective talent of this team is more important than anyone player, including Nick.

Okay, but who do you think is overrating him? You are the only person bringing this up, and I'm not even sure why it matters. I think Lidstrom is our best defenseman, but yes, life can and will go on without him. Who is saying otherwise? Beyond that, why the hell are we talking about Lidstrom anyway?

This whole thing started with the issue of who to keep, Z or Hossa, and you chose Hossa. If you don't want to pay Z more than Datsyuk, fine, but by your same argument you can't pay Hossa any more than Dats either. He took a pay cut this year, do you realistically think he's going to take even less next year?

[Zune 0]

Okay, but who do you think is overrating him? You are the only person bringing this up, and I'm not even sure why it matters. I think Lidstrom is our best defenseman, but yes, life can and will go on without him. Who is saying otherwise? Beyond that, why the hell are we talking about Lidstrom anyway?

This whole thing started with the issue of who to keep, Z or Hossa, and you chose Hossa. If you don't want to pay Z more than Datsyuk, fine, but by your same argument you can't pay Hossa any more than Dats either. He took a pay cut this year, do you realistically think he's going to take even less next year?

Less than Zetterberg, yes. Which allows us to sign a guy like Hudler or Frazen.

Before the playoffs and even after I wasn't sold on Frazen but this season its obvious. His shot is insane, as long as the Wings make it clear that he needs to improve his skating somewhat, I see no reason to not give him a long contract.

Losing Zetterberg sucks but hes an eight rounder, developed for nothing and cost nothing to acquire. Its the cap world and we wouldn't lose Zetterberg for nothing, we would gain $8-$10 million in cap space.

Maybe the Wings win the cup this season and Lidstrom feels the need to retire? That extra cash allows the Wings to sign a guy like Bouwmeester or go after Kovalchuk, both of whom will get less than Z as a free agent.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Zune

[Datsyerberger 279]

What cannot be observed on the television? Work ethic? Locker room presence? Getting along with teammates?

Datsyuk isn't Terrell Owens, he isn't a locker room cancer that the Wings keep around because he produces.

You're dealing vagaries because you have no argument. Its a very simple question, what does Zetterberg have that Datsyuk does not?

Just because I think Zetterberg will make a better captain over Datsyuk does not mean I think Datsyuk is a locker room cancer. Saying that I have no argument while logical fallacies substantiate your own does not make for good debate.

If Captaincy is based solely on points, faceoff %, takeaways, funny jokes in broken english, hits, and stickhandling -- Yes, Datsyuk should Captain the Wings.

If there are 'intangibles' that we, as fans, cannot perceive or experience as a whole, and these intangibles are worth enough for Captaincy that it's okay if the player is only the "2nd best" performer--well, people with far better credentials than my own apparently think it's Zetterberg.

[steveyzerman 0]

Im asking you, what does Zetterberg have that Datsyuk doesn't? What makes Zetterberg a better candidate for captain other than the fact Yzerman may or may not have said something along the lines years ago or that Ken Daniels seemingly repeats it along with everything else in his brain per game.

I can respect a decent argument but none have been presented. Zetterberg has been bested by Datsyuk year in and year out. If Yzerman and Lidstrom can "lead by example", why can't Datsyuk?

The only time the argument against Datsyuk was even valid was during his playoff struggles, before the seven year deal and before the Selke. Now all of the things people used to somehow make Zetterberg seem more appealing, (Better defensive play, better at faceoffs, shows up in the playoffs, hits more, etc), all goes out the window.

This isn't about downplaying Zetterberg, hes the second best player on the team, apparently, thats impossible to comprehend.

It seems pointless to spend $8 + million on a second line center, even with his defensive play. The only way he can justify such a contract would be scoring 50 goals THIS season or at the very least leading the team in scoring. Hes playing with Franzen and Hossa, theres no reason he can't get it done. Especially when Datsyuk has 9 points in three games playing with Homer and anyone else they throw at him.

Its been stated many times in this thread, Datsyuk is more valuable because he makes the players around him better. While Zetterberg is at his best playing with a playmaker like Datsyuk.

At this point the argument for Z being captain is because he has a cool beard. Thats the strongest point ive heard so far.

The real question is how many years does Datsyuk have to lead the team in scoring before hes done playing second fiddle?

Zetterberg has a cooler beard. & aside from take aways, I'd actually give the defensive edge to Hank.

Also, Most of Yzerman's years were not spent at the top of the points list on this team. It was his will & determination that got him the captaincy. & I'm not saying Pavel doesn't have it; the guy had an ocean in his knee & still played every playoff game a couple of years ago. But Hank has this 52nd gear that he puts it in when we're down or we need something big. Now, you wouldnt' understand that because you're not a real fan & don't watch him night in & night out... too soon?

Pavel makes the guys around him better, sure. No arguments. He's the most skilled player I've ever seen in my life & he does stuff I dream of dreaming of. But Hank has a beard & a 52nd gear. I look into his gorgeous eyes &... Oh. Um... I look into his EYES when we're down & I can see he wants it more than anyone.

Edited December 31, 2008 by steveyzerman

[Zune 0]

Just because I think Zetterberg will make a better captain over Datsyuk does not mean I think Datsyuk is a locker room cancer. Saying that I have no argument while logical fallacies substantiate your own does not make for good debate.

If Captaincy is based solely on points, faceoff %, takeaways, funny jokes in broken english, hits, and stickhandling -- Yes, Datsyuk should Captain the Wings.

If there are 'intangibles' that we, as fans, cannot perceive or experience as a whole, and these intangibles are worth enough for Captaincy that it's okay if the player is only the "2nd best" performer--well, people with far better credentials than my own apparently think it's Zetterberg.

Id be willing to bet that those "Intangibles" are the same that led the Wings brass to giving Datsyuk a seven year deal.

In other words, you have no specific example of why Z is better fit, you're just using three year old quotes from Wings upper management for your case.

The only thing holding Datsyuk back before was not showing up in the playoffs and now hes silenced his critics. What else could he possibly do to qualify for being captain? The Dr. Ramani commercial should be enough.

[lets go pavel 2]

Less than Zetterberg, yes.

Based on ... what? And do you think he'll take less than Datsyuk? He wouldn't this year, and you've already said you don't want to pay anyone more than Dats because he's the most valuable guy on the team ...

[Zune 0]

Zetterberg has a cooler beard. & aside from take aways, I'd actually give the defensive edge to Hank.

Also, Most of Yzerman's years were not spent at the top of the points list on this team. It was his will & determination that got him the captaincy. & I'm not saying Pavel doesn't have it; the guy had an ocean in his knee & still played every playoff game a couple of years ago. But Hank has this 52nd gear that he puts it in when we're down or we need something big. Now, you wouldnt' understand that because you're not a real fan & don't watch him night in & night out... too soon?

Pavel makes the guys around him better, sure. No arguments. He's the most skilled player I've ever seen in my life time & he does stuff I dream of dreaming of. But Hank has a beard & a 52nd gear. I look into his gorgeous eyes &... Oh. Um... I look into his EYES when we're down & I can see he wants it more than anyone.

Ive watched every Wings game since 1996. But if the standard is in fact Yzerman, how does Zetterberg compare, if at all to Stevie Y? If media reports are correct, Datsyuk played in the 06 Edmonton series when he couldn't even walk on one leg.

And if we're discussing clutch, who was it that scored the final two goals in game six of the Anahiem series in 2007? In an attempt to tie the game and keep the series going Dats, scored both goals in the final ten minutes.

[Yzerman191 37]

I appreciate Z for what he is. A good center but he needs to be paired with certain players to succeed. And if you want a repeat of the last season and a half, he needs to be paired with Datsyuk. On the other hand Datsyuk can be paired with anyone and finish with 85 or more points.

Your argument is flawed because you're going on an extremely small sample size. Datsyuk and Zetterberg have almost always played together. This is the first year they've really been apart for more than a few small stretches. Using the result of the last 36 games as your argument to prove Datsyuk doesn't need Zetterberg but Zetterberg needs Datsyuk is ridiculous. Let me reiterate that at the beginning of the season Zetterberg was on pace for 50 goals playing with Franzen and Sammy. Players slump and players catch fire; let's give it a little bit more time before saying that Zetterberg's production depends on Datsyuk.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Id be willing to bet that those "Intangibles" are the same that led the Wings brass to giving Datsyuk a seven year deal.

In other words, you have no specific example of why Z is better fit, you're just using three year old quotes from Wings upper management for your case.

The only thing holding Datsyuk back before was not showing up in the playoffs and now hes silenced his critics. What else could he possibly do to qualify for being captain? The Dr. Ramani commercial should be enough.

Logical fallacies again. Please show where I used any quote at all, or even more specifically, a 3 year old one.

[Zune 0]

Based on ... what? And do you think he'll take less than Datsyuk? He wouldn't this year, and you've already said you don't want to pay anyone more than Dats because he's the most valuable guy on the team ...

The cap is DECRESING, its a fact not fiction. Its going to decrease to $56 million and than moreso after that. Any argument about inflation or different cap totals is ridiculos. Relatively, the cap will be 10% higher at best between the season Datsyuk's deal took effect and when Zetterberg's will.

And Hossa turned down $100 million to sign with this team. Hes leading the team in goals. Even if he decides he wants to cash in there are other players out there who are becoming free agents and restricted free agents that will take less than Pavel and will fit just as well as Zetterberg.

You're seriously underestimating the Zetterberg hype and upper hand he holds in the negotiating process. He scored 90 points, got nominated for a Selke and won the Conn Smyth. Anything short of an MVP, he could be the highest paid player in the league. Which is fine, theres plenty of teams out there willing to pay the price but my point is that hes not better than Datsyuk, a guy who will make considerably less, in a comparable cap setting.

[steveyzerman 0]

Ive watched every Wings game since 1996. But if the standard is in fact Yzerman, how does Zetterberg compare, if at all to Stevie Y? If media reports are correct, Datsyuk played in the 06 Edmonton series when he couldn't even walk on one leg.

And if we're discussing clutch, who was it that scored the final two goals in game six of the Anahiem series in 2007? In an attempt to tie the game and keep the series going Dats, scored both goals in the final ten minutes.

Okay, My post was clearly facetious, but I'll give in.

I mentioned the series where Pavel couldn't walk & I didn't say anything about clutch, I said "will & determination".

That's is an example of leading by example, not putting up points. I didn't compare Zetterberg to Yzerman. I contrasted Yzerman to Pavel. One of your arguments was that Pavel puts up the most points. I was stating that Yzerman did not always put up the most points & he was clearly the best captain EVAR!

& you still have no rebuttal for the beard.

[Zune 0]

Your argument is flawed because you're going on an extremely small sample size. Datsyuk and Zetterberg have almost always played together. This is the first year they've really been apart for more than a few small stretches. Using the result of the last 36 games as your argument to prove Datsyuk doesn't need Zetterberg but Zetterberg needs Datsyuk is ridiculous. Let me reiterate that at the beginning of the season Zetterberg was on pace for 50 goals playing with Franzen and Sammy. Players slump and players catch fire; let's give it a little bit more time before saying that Zetterberg's production depends on Datsyuk.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg didn't play together in 05-06 and the first half of 06-07. The second half of 06-07 is where Zetterberg caught fire, playing with Datsyuk and Homer and the line remained together for the season and a half.

They haven't "Always" played together so the sample size is a little bigger than you may think.

And if you recall, which im sure you don't, Datsyuk scored 87 points in 05-06 playing on a line with Shanahan and Draper. It was terrible, it had no chemistry and he still lead the team in scoring.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Another thing...

The only thing holding Datsyuk back before was not showing up in the playoffs and now hes silenced his critics. What else could he possibly do to qualify for being captain? The Dr. Ramani commercial should be enough.

Wait.. you mean that Lidstrom guy being there had nothing to do with it? A shame he wasn't made an alternate captain underneath him..

Oh, wait.

[Zune 0]

Okay, My post was clearly facetious, but I'll give in.

I mentioned the series where Pavel couldn't walk & I didn't say anything about clutch, I said "will & determination".

That's is an example of leading by example, not putting up points. I didn't compare Zetterberg to Yzerman. I contrasted Yzerman to Pavel. One of your arguments was that Pavel puts up the most points. I was stating that Yzerman did not always put up the most points & he was clearly the best captain EVAR!

& you still have no rebuttal for the beard.

"Best captain ever" is debatable but i'll give in just to end that argument. The legend of Steve Yzerman is being a clutch player, even while injured. He didn't consistently lead the team in scoring because unlike today, in the post cap world, we could pay Yzerman eight million to be a shutdown centerman. We had Shanahan, Kozlov, Fedorov, Larionov and Hull. Yzerman didn't NEED to score because that wasn't his role.

On the other hand, Datsyuk and Zetterberg's role is just like Yzerman's (Shut down center) but they're also expected to be point per game players.

[steveyzerman 0]

Fact is, I'm glad we're having this argument & not a "WHO THE HELL IS GOOD ENOUGH TO BE OUR CAPTAIN!" argument like Vancouver.

OOOOOOOOOOO, I went there.