Penguins sign Jordan Staal, 4 Years $16 Million

[therock48880 14]

Those who are saying this is a good deal for the Pens must not watch them very much. Yes, he's young. Yes, he's big. That's all he's got going for him. He has hands of stone and can't handle the simplest of passes and is a defensive liabiltiy. The reason he's a third line center instead of a first line winger for Crosby is because he can't control a pass. This is a horrible deal and sets a bad precedence for the rest of the league.

Check out letsgopens.com for a more thorough evaluation of the deal. The last time I checked, the Staal thread was 17 pages long and about 90% of the Pens fans said it was a horrible deal. For a team that desperately needs wingers that can score, this deal makes no sense, unless he's trade bait. Not to mention that there are numerous rumors of a feud between Staal and Therrien.

[Doggy 130]

I was more referring to long term. Gonchar's deal is up next season.

After the other two they have nothing.

Gonchar's contracts expires after next season I believe. They'll still far from pulling a TB though. If they fail to sign one other decent defenseman after 09/10 then comparisons will still not be valid because of Goligoski and there's another good young Dman named Sneep who will probably be ready by then too.

[therock48880 14]

To start with, players that make a substantial shift from 4th liners to 2nd liners at the age of 28 and essentially overnight are very rare. At the moment, I can't think of a more drastic transformation than Johan Franzen's, barring freak/fluke seasons where a player performs at a much higher level than they ever had, but were not able to sustain it (i.e. Drapers 24 goal year).

Secondly, you're missing a key point in the development debate, and thats whether or not a player CAN perform adequately in the NHL at a young age, and whether or not they DO perform adequately at the NHL level. Therefore, this isn't the a ***-for-tat debate comparing potential to potential. We aren't measuring the immeasurables with Jordan Staal. We have the data from which to draw our conclusions. And those conclusions point to Staal being a capable 20+ goal scorer who is currently on pace for his 2nd year of 40+ points. At the age of 20. Judging from the scores of young talent around the league - not just the random fluke example - those players who exhibit adequate talent at the age of 18-20 often continue to build on that talent more often than not (barring injury). Obviously, theres always the chance that Staal could turn into a bust and be way overpaid, but its a calculated risk that is more heavily supported by precedents than it is weakened.

And finally, to get at the core of what youre asking, is there really a difference between the potential of a 20 year old versus the potential of a 24 year old? And to that I definitely give a resounding yes.

While the question of whether or not Jordan Staal is to be overpaid is going to linger, the question of WHY he is going to be deemd over or underpaid has everything to do with offensive statistics in his case, which is a favorable circumstance. He has already exhibited strong defense, grit, and a great work ethic as well as the ability to perform well in high-pressure circumstances. He is a very dynamic player, and those kinds of players typically get paid more on average across the NHL, offensive statistics aside. Should Jordan Staal reach the 55+ point plateau, by nature of the type of player he is, there are a number of GMs in this league who would welcome his 4M salary with open arms.

The thing about Staal is if you take away his 29 goal year a couple years ago, he has been nothing but an average hockey player at EVERY level he's played at. His numbers in the minors were not very impressive. The true aberration in his career is the year that he scored 29 goals.

[Doggy 130]

Those who are saying this is a good deal for the Pens must not watch them very much. Yes, he's young. Yes, he's big. That's all he's got going for him. He has hands of stone and can't handle the simplest of passes and is a defensive liabiltiy. The reason he's a third line center instead of a first line winger for Crosby is because he can't control a pass. This is a horrible deal and sets a bad precedence for the rest of the league.

Check out letsgopens.com for a more thorough evaluation of the deal. The last time I checked, the Staal thread was 17 pages long and about 90% of the Pens fans said it was a horrible deal. For a team that desperately needs wingers that can score, this deal makes no sense, unless he's trade bait. Not to mention that there are numerous rumors of a feud between Staal and Therrien.

I stopped reading there. How can you start a post off accusing people of not watching enough and then spout ignorant s*** like that?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

The thing about Staal is if you take away his 29 goal year a couple years ago, he has been nothing but an average hockey player at EVERY level he's played at. His numbers in the minors were not very impressive. The true aberration in his career is the year that he scored 29 goals.

29 goals was an abberation....yet hes on pace this year for 24 goals? As a 20 year old? Okay. Not to mention hes on pace for at least 40 points again this year?

Edited January 9, 2009 by YoungGuns1340

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Those who are saying this is a good deal for the Pens must not watch them very much. Yes, he's young. Yes, he's big. That's all he's got going for him. He has hands of stone and can't handle the simplest of passes and is a defensive liabiltiy. The reason he's a third line center instead of a first line winger for Crosby is because he can't control a pass. This is a horrible deal and sets a bad precedence for the rest of the league.

Check out letsgopens.com for a more thorough evaluation of the deal. The last time I checked, the Staal thread was 17 pages long and about 90% of the Pens fans said it was a horrible deal. For a team that desperately needs wingers that can score, this deal makes no sense, unless he's trade bait. Not to mention that there are numerous rumors of a feud between Staal and Therrien.

Yes, because players who are defensive liabilities are frequently their teams #1 PKing forward, playing nearly 4 SH minutes per game, all at the age of 20 years old.

As for the trade in question for the PENS, yeah its not a great deal because the Pens have ZERO wingers and a shallow defensive corps that is heavily banged up. The last thing they need to do is put 4M into another centerman...but that doesn't change the fact that the deal in it of itself is hardly the albatross that the so-called "informed" members on this board think it is.

Edited January 9, 2009 by YoungGuns1340

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I challenge folks on this board to 1) find a 20 year old who is far and away their teams #1 defensive forward and 2) find a player that is relied upon to be their teams #1 shutdown forward that can still produce at a high rate offensively. Undoubtedly thats an easy task when your primary even strength assignment is to stop top forwards from scoring, as opposed to doing the scoring yourself.

Edited January 9, 2009 by YoungGuns1340

[Doggy 130]

Yes, because players who are defensive liabilities are frequently their teams #1 PKer, playing nearly 4 SH minutes per game, all at the age of 20 years old.

As for the trade in question for the PENS, yeah its not a great deal because the Pens have ZERO wingers and a shallow defensive corps that is heavily banged up. The last thing they need to do is put 4M into another centerman...but that doesn't change the fact that the deal in it of itself is hardly the albatross that the so-called "informed" members on this board think it is.

Yeah, their best defensive forward is a defensive liability.

Just in case you were wondering, therock, his defensive side is the main reason behind this big fat contract. Now go watch some games and get a clue.

[Datsyerberger 279]

To start with, players that make a substantial shift from 4th liners to 2nd liners at the age of 28 and essentially overnight are very rare. At the moment, I can't think of a more drastic transformation than Johan Franzen's, barring freak/fluke seasons where a player performs at a much higher level than they ever had, but were not able to sustain it (i.e. Drapers 24 goal year).

Secondly, you're missing a key point in the development debate, and thats whether or not a player CAN perform adequately in the NHL at a young age, and whether or not they DO perform adequately at the NHL level. Therefore, this isn't the a ***-for-tat debate comparing potential to potential. We aren't measuring the immeasurables with Jordan Staal. We have the data from which to draw our conclusions. And those conclusions point to Staal being a capable 20+ goal scorer who is currently on pace for his 2nd year of 40+ points. At the age of 20. Judging from the scores of young talent around the league - not just the random fluke example - those players who exhibit adequate talent at the age of 18-20 often continue to build on that talent more often than not (barring injury). Obviously, theres always the chance that Staal could turn into a bust and be way overpaid, but its a calculated risk that is more heavily supported by precedents than it is weakened.

And finally, to get at the core of what youre asking, is there really a difference between the potential of a 20 year old versus the potential of a 24 year old? And to that I definitely give a resounding yes.

While the question of whether or not Jordan Staal is to be overpaid is going to linger, the question of WHY he is going to be deemd over or underpaid has everything to do with offensive statistics in his case, which is a favorable circumstance. He has already exhibited strong defense, grit, and a great work ethic as well as the ability to perform well in high-pressure circumstances. He is a very dynamic player, and those kinds of players typically get paid more on average across the NHL, offensive statistics aside. Should Jordan Staal reach the 55+ point plateau, by nature of the type of player he is, there are a number of GMs in this league who would welcome his 4M salary with open arms.

This first line isn't for you, YG. I just want to say whoever called Staal a defensive liability either has never seen a Pens game, or is mental. Anyhow, to the quote.

I don't disagree with the vast majority of what you said, nor was most of that my contention. Mine was simply that some players develop at a younger age than some others, and just because they do so doesn't mean they're going to develop more than someone who developed later. Just earlier. Such is my case with Crosby. Amazing player. Started amazing young. I don't think he's going to develop into a 150 point player (unless the league heads in that direction and point totals in general go up). He's already at his peak. The same could be said for Gretzky. He was already in his peak when he entered the NHL. The only thing he had to do was adjust to the league.. which obviously didn't take long.

My argument is that Staal might not be someone who can develop into well beyond what Flip is now at 24, but rather, that we're already seeing the potential of his peak (the offense in his first season, and his defense all throughout). I certainly think he'll improve a bit, especially on faceoffs and mental acuity, but not fantastically more than he is now. For that matter, I think the same of Flip. I think he'll get a little better overall and have a small offensive breakout, but I don't see him turning into a Datsyuk.

If I'm wrong? Hell, I don't mind, I don't have to rely on predictions like this for a living. Not only that, but Flip turning into a 2nd Datsyuk with that contract would be excellent, and seeing as Staal is probably my favorite Pen..

[Yzerman191 37]

I'm surprised by this contract. I do understand WHY he's getting paid 4M: he's solid defensively, he's gritty, he can put up some points, and he performs the tasks as a third line grinder reasonably well. Last but not least, he's extremely young; a lot of the high salary was based on his potential (IE Kronwall and Flip) performance. However, a lot of his points seem to come on the PP (where he's playing with players like Sid and Geno), and his work ethic has been called into question sometimes. Overall, he may be overpaid at this point, but Shero is hoping his game improves in the near future.

What I don't get is WHY the Pens would pay 4M for a 3rd line center. It's a luxury they simply cannot afford. Crosby and Malkin (both have cap hits of 8.7M) are their 1-2 punch at center, and they really don't have the supporting wingers they should to maximize Crosby and Malkin's skill. Add in Fleury (5.25M), Gonchar (5M), Whitney (4M), and Orpik's (3.75) cap hit, and they're in trouble. That leaves less than 17M at the current cap, which is likely to drop.

Edit: just checked nhlnumbers.com to verify. They've got 7 of their regulars as UFAs next year (4 up front, 3 being top 6 wingers, and 3 on the back end), and a backup goaltender to resign. They're sitting at 42M right now.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Yzerman191

[Guest MrSandMan]

Wow, this isn't good to sign him so high. Hopefully Franzen, Hudler and Zetterberg don't see this (thought Hudler will probably be gone after this year anyhow.) $4 million is too high, esp when the cap is going down.

Few other points, when comparing to Flip... Staal gets PP time and plays on the 2nd line, right? So he should have better numbers.

That signing doesn't make sense long term.

[ComradeWasabi 109]

Hopefully our players realize that he is being overpaid and don't expect to get this kind of money from Kenny.

Hopefully.

[therock48880 14]

Ok, I stand corrected. He's not a defensive liability. I just can't stand the guy so much that anything he does I rip on it. I'll try to be objective from here on out. Those who are ripping on me and telling me to get a clue, I understand, but you're basing that from one comment that I've retracted. I've watched quite a few Pens games this year compared to normal (roughly 10) because I love seeing them lose. Staal has not been the least bit impressive. He's soft in the corners and has stone hands. Youngguns, you mention he's on pace for 24 goals this year. Keep in mind that three of the goals he has came in one game. He's on pace to score 23 this year but if you subtract that game in which the Wings quit playing defense in the third period, he'd be on pace to score 17 goals. Since his offensive numbers all the through his career have been very similar, I don't understand why some think he's going to magically develop soft hands and turn into a scorer. If he'd had tons of offensive success in the minors, I would agree that could happen. Yet, he's never shown it at any level. So, basically, the bar has been set for a 3rd line checking center that can score 15-25 goals per season to be paid 4 million a year. If that's the case, Franzen should be worth 7 million. Shero sucks.

[Datsyerberger 279]

I'm beginning to wonder more and more if this is a precursor to a trade. I just can't see the Pens paying that much for a 3rd line center; there's no way they let Malkin and Crosby go, and their respective talents are wasted on the wing.

$4M could be a reasonable contract for a skilled, 2nd line center on a team looking for young players with a lot of potential. Is it possible the Pens are getting ready to make a move for a goal scoring winger?