Drapers line

[dat's sick 1,002]

At least we would know that aliens do exist. It is worth some salary cap issues for Wings.

But we already do. I refuse to believe Datsyuk is born on this planet, humans just aren't able to do the things he does.

[Red Crazy 201]

But we already do. I refuse to believe Datsyuk is born on this planet, humans just aren't able to do the things he does.

I agree! lol

I do think that Meech has shown that he can play in whatever role he is given and I would like to see him play more, he still can improve but that will come with some ice time. Right now I would make Meech a regular and scratch either Malts or Kopecky.

[Wingsallwin 0]

I don't mind we bench or waive up Kopecky. But for Draper and Maltby, let's wait for little bit more time. Kopecky has been always horrible but because he was injured before the last season playoff, Helm replaced that spot and he brought up a big impact on the Wings.

I know Draper has been absolutely hell so far this season but when if we face a time to choose either Draper or Kopecky, I will choose Draper without any worry.

Both Draper and Kopecky are liabilities on our 4th line and our team but Draper at least can win the faceoff.

Kopecky, he has been in the NHL for quite a bit but he has accomplished nothing. He is a big guy but he caanot hit big, binrging up no noticable movement, etc. Just because he is familiar with Hossa, it does not mean he should stay in Detroit. I want to believe Hossa is not a guy who will get mad just because his good friend moves to another team.

The thing is I think Holland will waiver Kopecky up soon. It is the last season for Kopecky with a contract as a Wings. And Holland surely knows in GR, we have lots of talents, Helm, Leino, Eriksson,etc. He will probably call up at least one of those GR to see what will happen.

Some people say Maltby sucks. Do you guys even watch the Wings game? Maltby has been the best player on our 4th line.

My ideal Wings offenses lines are

1- Pasha, Homer, Franzen

2- Hank, Hossa, Cleary(or Huds)

3- Filp, Sammy, Huds(or Cleary)

4- Draper(if he keeps playing sucks, not mind at all to change to one of GR, Maltby, Helm)

[YoungGuns1340 1]

He does indeed have a NTC -- But the extension he signed on October 25, 2007 (three-year, $4.75-million contract) went into effect July 1, 2008. So whether he is physically there or not, he will be factored into the salary cap until 2011!

Haha woah. I aged myself there. Completely forgot he had signed the new contract!

[GoWings1905 2,694]

The fourth line is just awful. Maltby has been the "best" of the three. I like Draper, but he doesn't provide anything to this team anymore. The Red Wings have plenty of good centers at faceoffs and certainly more than enough penalty killers at forward. Kopecky is one of the worst hockey players ever. If Meech is somehow going to keep getting scratched on defense in favor of Lebda, he should at least get some time at forward. My first wish would be to get Darren Helm on this team as quick as possible.

Ideally, I would like to see something like this on the fourth line:

Maltby/Meech - Helm - McCarty/Downey

Rotate in Maltby and Meech. I don't know where to put Draper, but Helm is most certainly a better player at this point. Kopecky can go play for a high school team. None of this will ever happen (especially Draper getting benched), but it is nice to dream about.

[stormboy 47]

it's a tough spot the front office and coach are in, imo.

obviously there's the balancing act of loyalty vs. pragmatism. you've got to make players believe that the organization is loyal (which it is) to help get good players signed for less money. the flip side of that is now what you see with 2/3 of our fourth line.

as for the faceoff argument with drapes...i see it, but at the same time, if you really, really need someone who is responsible defensively and can win faceoffs...i can think of two players who fit that bill. they wear 40 and 13.

both draper and maltby (though draper to a lesser extent) have shown flashes of their old selves this season. kopecky has, at times, shown that he can hit and actually play the game a bit. but all of these things have been so far and few between that it does make me wonder how much worse a helm-meech-downey line would be. obviously downey can't really play the game at all...helm and meech, if they get put on the ice with at least the second pairing of d-men, might be able to generate some scoring opportunities.

the question to me becomes...if this is the one thread that LGW agrees on, it means it is something that seems obvious to fans. there are two possibilities: one, we are wrong, and helm-meech-downey would actually be worse, and the guys that get paid big bucks to know these things know better than us, and they're right; two, there are mitigating factors. one being cap space. another being the inability to do anything with the three of our current fourth liners. a third being the idea that the front office believes that even with this s***ty ass line, we're still going to win enough games, and if we can get by on the skill of our top three lines and (hopefully good) goaltending, why not show future players that we are very loyal to our veterans, in hopes of snagging a few good free agents down the road?

i don't know. this thread cropped up after our first loss in seven games, and one which we still got a point for, on the road. obviously, when this line is costing us games, it's going to be an issue. but for the majority of the games this season, it hasn't been enough of an issue that we've lost the game.

if we were losing tons of games 5-4 and 3 of every four goals was coming against this line and they were producing none of them, it would be a bigger issue. for now, we're getting by.

is that enough for the playoffs? we'll see. it sounds like we'll have more roster options then, too.

in kenny we trust.

[swiss_fan 3]

I think without a doubt that Babcock realize that the 4th sucks royally.

Obviously there is the cap problem which explain that we don t bring up Helm (even if this one seems recently to struggle in GR), BUT i m quite sure it s also part of the plan, and it will be much more beneficial on the psychological side to bring GR guys only when playoff will come or soon time before. It will push the guys and insert a new dynamic like last year with the "black aces"

[uk_redwing 495]

One thing about Draper.

People say hes there as a faceoff specialist. Whilst this is true, reailse that the majority of the faceoffs hes winning that arnt on the PK are for the 4th line...or more specificly THIS 4th line...why bother? They win the faceoff, turnover the puck, other team scores.

If the other team just wins the faceoff to begin with, it saves a few seconds which the wings might use to recitfy the fact our 4th line sucks, completely and utterly.

A couple of young guys (Meech and Helm) should be put in there to at least give the line a bit of energy. Im not even gonna start on Kopecky.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

I don't think we'll know until years later the true extent of the Kopecky injuries on his prospect to flourish as a player. I do think 5 years ago he was a Blue Chip prospect, but now I think he's an average 4th line player on MOST teams. He just never developed, he plays tentatively, and lacks confidence for the NHL.

I think Abdelkader will be with the Wings as a solid contributer by 2010.

[ltgator333 3]

Other than the faceoff aspect of Draper's game, I honestly don't see how Abdelkader-Helm-Downey could be worse than our current 4th line, even with the lack of experience. Obviously there are cap issues, but it's ok to dream

It couldn't be. Helm is as fast as Draper, Abdelkader is waaay faster than Maltby and having Aaron Downy would be great for things like Steve Ott's punk-@$$ face. Only downside is Drape's faceoffs and the experience that Drapes/Malts have, but it don't seem to be doing them a lotta good right now anyway.

I'm with you guys I really wish they'd retire. I can't stand the thought of those guys again.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I don't think we'll know until years later the true extent of the Kopecky injuries on his prospect to flourish as a player. I do think 5 years ago he was a Blue Chip prospect, but now I think he's an average 4th line player on MOST teams. He just never developed, he plays tentatively, and lacks confidence for the NHL.

I think Abdelkader will be with the Wings as a solid contributer by 2010.

I think you're giving him too much credit. Being a blue chip prospect doesn't mean anything if nothing ever comes of it. Ultimately, there shouldn't be anything about Kopecky's injuries that should render him an entirely obsolete player. Offense, yeah, and same with skating. But where is this guys hitting game? Hits hits are weak and he never fights. Hes huge, hes the 12th forward, and hes not noteworthy in any other way than his size. Its not like Babcock is telling this kid "be careful out there...you're too value to be throwing your body around and throwing haymakers." Theres nothing that is keeping this guy from at least being a 4th line banger/part-time enforcer, except his willingness. The fact that he basically does NOTHING well is whats so pathetic about him. This is literally one instance where a player is a waste of size and space.

[ben_usmc 253]

agree with youngguns this guy has kept getting set back by injuries which sucks. But at the end of the day he is either not capable or willing to do what is asked of him as a 4th liner. Now if he is still injuried that's one thing why don't we just LTIR him.

[Opie 308]

I think you're giving him too much credit. Being a blue chip prospect doesn't mean anything if nothing ever comes of it. Ultimately, there shouldn't be anything about Kopecky's injuries that should render him an entirely obsolete player. Offense, yeah, and same with skating. But where is this guys hitting game? Hits hits are weak and he never fights. Hes huge, hes the 12th forward, and hes not noteworthy in any other way than his size. Its not like Babcock is telling this kid "be careful out there...you're too value to be throwing your body around and throwing haymakers." Theres nothing that is keeping this guy from at least being a 4th line banger/part-time enforcer, except his willingness. The fact that he basically does NOTHING well is whats so pathetic about him. This is literally one instance where a player is a waste of size and space.

Have you blown out your knee before?

Honest question, ask any doctor for an athlete to return to the form that they were in before the injury would take roughly 1 full year, he is barely 7 months removed from his injury, and started playing this season barely 5 months after the injury. (Right he was injured in May?)

The knee may be "Healed", but is his leg back to the condition it was? Speaking from experience when you do damage to your knee like that it is not only your knee that needs to recover, your entire upper leg does. You will not use your leg for a couple of months, the muscles get atrophy. And the ones that surround the knee will go from being on top of the knee, to drooping down beside the knee.

Lateral movement, the kind involved in almost every hockey move, is going to not only be painful at first, but there is this whole mental thing you have to get over first. That when you put pressure on the knee in different angles that it won't completely fall apart again.

And hitting is combining two things that mentally will be a bit more difficult to over come, the ability to explode with the knee, to drive the legs will not only not be what it was, but also will make him hesitant. He will not want to put that kind of explosion into the knee at first, and it will take a while for him to have the confidence in the leg. Add that the fact that if he does get over the act of exploding off of that leg he will have to overcome the image of potentially smashing his knee off of the board or another leg.

Not saying these things aren't overcomable (Is that a word?) and he certainly has access to better health care and PT than I do or did, but I am just over 2 years out from my knee surgery (10/31/06) and my knee is still not right, granted I also broke my tibial plateau so I have some severe structural damage to work with.

And all of this is IF the surgery and rehab were 100%, look at Tom Brady a simple staff infection could potentially add another 6-8 months of rehab and recovery.

I am not making excuses for the guy but you seem to pass off a knee injury like it is a sprained ankle, and it appears as though you have never had one. That is why I bring these points up.

WOW! I was seriously not trying to be an ass here but some of those statements sound like I was. YG no offense meant man!

EDIT: Also the fact that the team is hamstrung by the cap and has been since the day after signing flip, the team had very few options to fill out the roster and not expose guys to the waiver wire.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Opie

[Jamaica Jon 1]

Meech is in for Maltby tonight:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...h_in_for_k.html

Update from Wednesday's morning skate in Anaheim: Derek Meech, who's alternated between defense and forward this season, will replace Kirk Maltby in the lineup tonight against the Ducks. Coach Mike Babcock was not happy to see the fourth line on the ice for two goals by Dallas in Monday's 5-4 overtime loss.

[Nev 1,085]

It's the worst 4th line in hockey.

They add zero toughness, zero goals, and no positives whatsoever. If Babcock is such the hard ass that he portrays, then he'll man up and demolish that line after the Father/ Son roadtrip.

Drapers face-offs. But yeah, apart from that they give us nothing.

I doubt we'd get anything for Kopecky, except as a make-weight in a bigger trade. Maltby we could probably trade for a low pick to a playoff team in the east looking to add playoff experience (think Washington or Boston)

I'm pretty sure come the end of the season when the roster restrictions are lifted we'll see Helm and Abdelkader on the 4th line with Draper. Babs said at the start of the season that Helm deserved to be on the roster.

[Red Crazy 201]

Meech is in for Maltby tonight:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...h_in_for_k.html

Nice to see! I hope this will give the 4th line the spark it needs.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Have you blown out your knee before?

Honest question, ask any doctor for an athlete to return to the form that they were in before the injury would take roughly 1 full year, he is barely 7 months removed from his injury, and started playing this season barely 5 months after the injury. (Right he was injured in May?)

The knee may be "Healed", but is his leg back to the condition it was? Speaking from experience when you do damage to your knee like that it is not only your knee that needs to recover, your entire upper leg does. You will not use your leg for a couple of months, the muscles get atrophy. And the ones that surround the knee will go from being on top of the knee, to drooping down beside the knee.

Lateral movement, the kind involved in almost every hockey move, is going to not only be painful at first, but there is this whole mental thing you have to get over first. That when you put pressure on the knee in different angles that it won't completely fall apart again.

And hitting is combining two things that mentally will be a bit more difficult to over come, the ability to explode with the knee, to drive the legs will not only not be what it was, but also will make him hesitant. He will not want to put that kind of explosion into the knee at first, and it will take a while for him to have the confidence in the leg. Add that the fact that if he does get over the act of exploding off of that leg he will have to overcome the image of potentially smashing his knee off of the board or another leg.

Not saying these things aren't overcomable (Is that a word?) and he certainly has access to better health care and PT than I do or did, but I am just over 2 years out from my knee surgery (10/31/06) and my knee is still not right, granted I also broke my tibial plateau so I have some severe structural damage to work with.

And all of this is IF the surgery and rehab were 100%, look at Tom Brady a simple staff infection could potentially add another 6-8 months of rehab and recovery.

I am not making excuses for the guy but you seem to pass off a knee injury like it is a sprained ankle, and it appears as though you have never had one. That is why I bring these points up.

WOW! I was seriously not trying to be an ass here but some of those statements sound like I was. YG no offense meant man!

EDIT: Also the fact that the team is hamstrung by the cap and has been since the day after signing flip, the team had very few options to fill out the roster and not expose guys to the waiver wire.

Again, you're giving Kopecky too much credit. First of all, Kopecky is (no offense) but probably in much better shape than you are. Secondly, not all injuries are equal. Do you think he came back from injury so soon when he wasn't ready? Again, this is Kopecky. Hes not a face on this team nor is he an integral part of it. He could have taken all the time in the world - and the team probably advised him to do so - to recover from this. Obviously, he didnt need to.

Also, youre COMPLETELY missing the point. First of all I said his injury would affect his offense and his skating.

there shouldn't be anything about Kopecky's injuries that should render him an entirely obsolete player. Offense, yeah, and same with skating. But where is this guys hitting game?

What I said was his injury does not make it OK for him to be a completely obsolete player, which he is. Hes on this team to be a physical presence, which is still a reasonable expectation from a guy who has been healthy enough to play hockey for 4 months. Look at Torres. Guy came back after his injury and did he waste time being a pansy about it? No. He was averaging 2 hits a game and the same physical force that he was pre-injury. There are other examples of guys who have come back from ACL tears and the like that don't revert to being non-factors. Its not like this guy is expected to be a point producer or a smooth skater. He has one role, and he can't fulfill it. Its pathetic, and there are no excuses for it.

And for the record, no, I haven't blown out my knee, but I did have two other simultaneous injuries that affected my athletic career when I was younger (out for 6 months), yet I was still able to come back and be a good enough player at my position to be offered a scholarship to one of the biggest schools in Michigan. PM me about it if you want to know.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Glad to see Meech is in tonight. I wish it was for Kopecky instead of Maltby, but hopefully it will be a positive change for the fourth line. I will still be holding my breath every time they take a shift.

[South Dakota wings fan 7]

I don't think we'll know until years later the true extent of the Kopecky injuries on his prospect to flourish as a player. I do think 5 years ago he was a Blue Chip prospect, but now I think he's an average 4th line player on MOST teams. He just never developed, he plays tentatively, and lacks confidence for the NHL.

I think Abdelkader will be with the Wings as a solid contributer by 2010.

I think you make an excellent point about Kopy. He was finally playing really well until he got low bridged against Columbus last year and ended his season.

Let's not forget that Helm did not start the playoffs in the starting lineup and only played a few games during the regular season. If memory serves me correct, Hartigan played the first 4 games against Trashville. Helm was inserted in game 5 and the rest they say is history.

I guess if our 4th line has to suck to compensate for an abundance of talent on the top 3, I could envision worse scenarios.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I think you make an excellent point about Kopy. He was finally playing really well until he got low bridged against Columbus last year and ended his season.

Let's not forget that Helm did not start the playoffs in the starting lineup and only played a few games during the regular season. If memory serves me correct, Hartigan played the first 4 games against Trashville. Helm was inserted in game 5 and the rest they say is history.

I guess if our 4th line has to suck to compensate for an abundance of talent on the top 3, I could envision worse scenarios.

Helm earned his spot and even moreso deserved to keep it. Kopecky has had more than a fair chance of proving anything and he hasn't. Our fourth line does suck, but it isn't something the Red Wings can't fix. Any scenario would be better than Kopecky at this point.

[Opie 308]

Again, you're giving Kopecky too much credit. First of all, Kopecky is (no offense) but probably in much better shape than you are. Secondly, not all injuries are equal. Do you think he came back from injury so soon when he wasn't ready? Again, this is Kopecky. Hes not a face on this team nor is he an integral part of it. He could have taken all the time in the world - and the team probably advised him to do so - to recover from this. Obviously, he didnt need to.

Also, youre COMPLETELY missing the point. First of all I said his injury would affect his offense and his skating.

What I said was his injury does not make it OK for him to be a completely obsolete player, which he is. Hes on this team to be a physical presence, which is still a reasonable expectation from a guy who has been healthy enough to play hockey for 4 months. Look at Torres. Guy came back after his injury and did he waste time being a pansy about it? No. He was averaging 2 hits a game and the same physical force that he was pre-injury. There are other examples of guys who have come back from ACL tears and the like that don't revert to being non-factors. Its not like this guy is expected to be a point producer or a smooth skater. He has one role, and he can't fulfill it. Its pathetic, and there are no excuses for it.

And for the record, no, I haven't blown out my knee, but I did have two other simultaneous injuries that affected my athletic career when I was younger (out for 6 months), yet I was still able to come back and be a good enough player at my position to be offered a scholarship to one of the biggest schools in Michigan. PM me about it if you want to know.

That was why I tried to state it as non-assholish as I could. EPIC FAIL!

I was more covering why I thought he would have a hard time exploding into his hits. I am not here to defend his play, just saying I have had knee injuries and see athletes take a while to come back. I also was trying to state the reason why he wouldn't be hitting to top form.

But I also disagree that Kopecky is a non factor, a non factor would log 3 minutes a night and have 4 minutes in PIMs and be a -5.

I will give you that this line is struggling and is by far the worst line on the team, but on a team like this the worst line is still better than most of the league's worst lines.

[Red Crazy 201]

I thought that the 4th line had a bit more jump last night. They didn't give up much in their own end and got a couple of scoring chances at the other! I say keep rotating Meech in for Maltby and Kopecky

[ltgator333 3]

I don't know who this Kopecky is that you guys are raggin the hell out of but you can't be watching the same player as I am. He's the only one on that line that can forecheck worth beans (after digestion), and even if he does slow the breakout it doesn't matter because Malts is going to cough the puck up anyway. Yeah he doesn't hit THAT hard, but he hits harder than Draper and Maltby put together. Maltby is by far the worst player on that line. The only thing the guy's got going for him is an overactive mouth and absolutely N O T H I N G to back it up. (Always been that way.) I don't get Draper.. I know he's got more skill than that but you couldn't tell. He won a Selke in '04 and has been on the decline since. Yeah, these guys were great in the late 90's- THAT WAS TEN F#(%ING YEARS AGO!

I'd rather keep Chelios than either of them. So cry about it.

[uk_redwing 495]

So cry about it.

[Mors 201]

There's really no way you can justify how awful Kopecky is. He doesn't have any area of specialty, he's the most generic and useless 4th line player we could have gotten.

Although I'll give you this one, he's finally reached the 20 point plateau! unfortunately it took him 146 games to do it. Pretty ridiculous for someone that isn't an enforcer.