Convinced yet?

[mjlegend 155]

Here's facts.

http://www.behindthejersey.com/2008/01/06/...ttendance-woes/

How much was an average ticket price in the 1980s?

[Frozen-Man 144]

Here's facts.

http://www.behindthejersey.com/2008/01/06/...ttendance-woes/

And the facts are also that we did not win any Cups during those times. I don't remember them handing out trophies for the team with the best attendance otherwise Montreal would have won almost every Cup in the last decade and Toronto would always be one of the top teams. Oh that's right you get trophies for wins not attendance. I mean if attendance is the ultimate goal we should have the guys play football because average attendance for the Redskins last year was 88,604 but the Capitals only averaged 15,472 (or even baseball the Nationals averaged 29,005). Maybe it would be better if we just gave trophies to the team that wins the most. Your facts don't mean much when you argue that we go back to playing in a way that didn't win any Cups and ditch playing the way that did win us some Cups.

[Frozen-Man 144]

To take this a step further, how many cups have they won without these type players (Downey's, Drake's and McCarty's of the world) as part of the line up?...... 0 Again, just reading the facts...

I don't discount the worth of those guys especially Drake and McCarty of old, and we will have a slightly different roster after the trade deadline, but none of those guys is a Proby and we still won. All I am saying is 20 years ago no would would have said we had much of an enforcer on our team last year and yet we still won. We will always have to have grit and I think we always will come playoff time but there is no denying that we won recent Cups with drastically less enforcement than we had in the 80's - hence we won with less enforcers not more.

[Frozen-Man 144]

How much was an average ticket price in the 1980s?

Excellent point. I couldn't find the average ticket price in the 1980's. The best that I could find is that in 1994-95 the average ticket price to a Red Wings game was $32.61 and in 2004-05 it was $57.11. That is a huge increase and would definately hinder many blue-collar families from going to the game as often.

[skacore 2]

It really is a never ending debate, the sooner everyone realizes that, the better. Who are you preaching to, E_S_A_D? The same group of fans who love old time hockey will feel sick every time a Red Wing player backs down from a challenge, and the same group of fans who enjoy this European style will applaud the "turning the other cheek" mentality because we might score on the power play and in the end, win the game. No one's opinion is going to change, especially after winning the Stanley Cup.

I find myself disgusted more often than not when I watch the Red Wings play, and I don't mean to offend anybody by that either, it's just not how the game I grew up to love has always been played. But it's pretty hard to argue with success, because the Red Wings are still winning games. Honestly, are we being cheapshotted/ran at more so than other teams? Not really, maybe a bit at times, but not really. Would an enforcer playing minimal minutes on the 4th line make a difference? No, not really, maybe just a little bit. It's not even about that anymore.

To those who don't understand the obsession with fighting: It's because we grew up loving this style of play. Hockey is known for it's hard hits, fights, brawls, that is one of the things that makes it so different than other sports. Growing up watching a team with guys like Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Shanahan, Konstantinov, Rouse, Drake, Primeau, etc... you fall in love with that style of play, you love to see your team physically abuse the other team, you lose to see emotion bowl over and a fight takes place between your favourite player and your team's #1 rival. You won't be getting that with the new Red Wings squad. Some of us just can't accept the fact that our hockey team that we have rooted for forever has adapted a new strategy where they back down from physical play and let the referees handle it, I am definitely one of those fans.

To those who can't stand to watch the team without ONE single fighter on the squad: Get that satisfaction from another team, plain and simple. It's not going to happen so it's best to just accept the team for what they are, a highly skilled European style team. Watch the Wings if you want to see highlight reel goals and great passing, but get your fix of hitting and fighting by watching other teams.

Spamming this board with new threads about the same old thing just gets everyone riled up and putting each other down, just accept the team for what it has become, it is what it is.

[Opie 308]

Sorry ladies, it's still part of the game will be .

Of all the dumb s*** you have posted on this board oddly enough it is this one that shows your intelligence and gets you ignored.

Man I could have sworn you above it, damn. I had held out hope that maybe just once you would answer a question I posed you, NOPE!

Instead you so eloquently avoid what I asked you and and your well spoken reply was phenomenal.

Nice reading your posts, to the Mindfly bin you go, rather ignore bin!

[esteef 2,679]

It really is a never ending debate, the sooner everyone realizes that, the better. Who are you preaching to, E_S_A_D? The same group of fans who love old time hockey will feel sick every time a Red Wing player backs down from a challenge, and the same group of fans who enjoy this European style will applaud the "turning the other cheek" mentality because we might score on the power play and in the end, win the game. No one's opinion is going to change, especially after winning the Stanley Cup.

I find myself disgusted more often than not when I watch the Red Wings play, and I don't mean to offend anybody by that either, it's just not how the game I grew up to love has always been played. But it's pretty hard to argue with success, because the Red Wings are still winning games. Honestly, are we being cheapshotted/ran at more so than other teams? Not really, maybe a bit at times, but not really. Would an enforcer playing minimal minutes on the 4th line make a difference? No, not really, maybe just a little bit. It's not even about that anymore.

To those who don't understand the obsession with fighting: It's because we grew up loving this style of play. Hockey is known for it's hard hits, fights, brawls, that is one of the things that makes it so different than other sports. Growing up watching a team with guys like Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Shanahan, Konstantinov, Rouse, Drake, Primeau, etc... you fall in love with that style of play, you love to see your team physically abuse the other team, you lose to see emotion bowl over and a fight takes place between your favourite player and your team's #1 rival. You won't be getting that with the new Red Wings squad. Some of us just can't accept the fact that our hockey team that we have rooted for forever has adapted a new strategy where they back down from physical play and let the referees handle it, I am definitely one of those fans.

To those who can't stand to watch the team without ONE single fighter on the squad: Get that satisfaction from another team, plain and simple. It's not going to happen so it's best to just accept the team for what they are, a highly skilled European style team. Watch the Wings if you want to see highlight reel goals and great passing, but get your fix of hitting and fighting by watching other teams.

Spamming this board with new threads about the same old thing just gets everyone riled up and putting each other down, just accept the team for what it has become, it is what it is.

QUITTER!

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

I don't discount the worth of those guys especially Drake and McCarty of old, and we will have a slightly different roster after the trade deadline, but none of those guys is a Proby and we still won. All I am saying is 20 years ago no would would have said we had much of an enforcer on our team last year and yet we still won. We will always have to have grit and I think we always will come playoff time but there is no denying that we won recent Cups with drastically less enforcement than we had in the 80's - hence we won with less enforcers not more.

Good post and Skacore get's the post of the day with his above.

[Firehawk 305]

Didn't read this whole thread, but apparently Claude Lemieux is with the SJ sharks now? I bet that's a move for when they play the wings in the WCF this year, as they know he bothers the red wings.

[redwing_sparty 0]

maybe someone else has said this already, but i dont really feel like reading 161 posts.

anyways, i dont have a problem with the team the way it is now. I think though that if you look back, we used to have guys like shanahan who where top notch scorers but could also fight and hit with the rest. There don;t seem to be too many guys out there anymore who you can look to as a consistent scoreing threat and a have a truly physical style of play.

the one thing i worry about is if we have to play the sharks in the playoffs. we didn;t last year and we all saw how the physical series with anehiem went 2 years ago (though i still think the wings outplayed them in that series). anyways thats my 2 cents worth

Edited January 20, 2009 by redwing_sparty

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't discount the worth of those guys especially Drake and McCarty of old, and we will have a slightly different roster after the trade deadline, but none of those guys is a Proby and we still won. All I am saying is 20 years ago no would would have said we had much of an enforcer on our team last year and yet we still won. We will always have to have grit and I think we always will come playoff time but there is no denying that we won recent Cups with drastically less enforcement than we had in the 80's - hence we won with less enforcers not more.

This team wasn't nearly talented to win Cups in the 80's. In recent memory they have had the talent, but weren't able to pull through until McCarty came back and until Drake and Downey were added to the roster.

That's what separated last year's team to the teams in the last few seasons before that.

[HenryMalredo 2]

This team wasn't nearly talented to win Cups in the 80's. In recent memory they have had the talent, but weren't able to pull through until McCarty came back and until Drake and Downey were added to the roster.

That's what separated last year's team to the teams in the last few seasons before that.

Downey sat on the bench during the playoffs, McCarty was nothing more than a nice story, Drake was a battler in the postseason, but he didn't enforce anything. Being physical and being an enforcer are two different things. They may not fight, but the Wings have two guys in GR in Helm and Abdelkader that will be hungry and battle for the puck if they are called up for the playoffs (and I hope they are). They would bring more of what the team needs.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

skacore said it best, you arent changing anyones opinions about enforcers and toughness in the game. Just arguments for the sake of arguments, and it gets old quick.

[Frozen-Man 144]

This team wasn't nearly talented to win Cups in the 80's. In recent memory they have had the talent, but weren't able to pull through until McCarty came back and until Drake and Downey were added to the roster.

That's what separated last year's team to the teams in the last few seasons before that.

I agree and that is kind of my point - we can't have it all and we would have to get rid of a fair bit of talent to get a really good enforcer who can play like we had in the 80's.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I agree and that is kind of my point - we can't have it all and we would have to get rid of a fair bit of talent to get a really good enforcer who can play like we had in the 80's.

I don't see why an enforcer has to be any more talented than any of our current 4th liners to earn a spot on this team. Our 4th line isn't all that useful at all.

The cap space is the real problem, but there's enough tradeable players to try to offset that.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

It really is a never ending debate, the sooner everyone realizes that, the better. Who are you preaching to, E_S_A_D? The same group of fans who love old time hockey will feel sick every time a Red Wing player backs down from a challenge, and the same group of fans who enjoy this European style will applaud the "turning the other cheek" mentality because we might score on the power play and in the end, win the game. No one's opinion is going to change, especially after winning the Stanley Cup.

I find myself disgusted more often than not when I watch the Red Wings play, and I don't mean to offend anybody by that either, it's just not how the game I grew up to love has always been played. But it's pretty hard to argue with success, because the Red Wings are still winning games. Honestly, are we being cheapshotted/ran at more so than other teams? Not really, maybe a bit at times, but not really. Would an enforcer playing minimal minutes on the 4th line make a difference? No, not really, maybe just a little bit. It's not even about that anymore.

To those who don't understand the obsession with fighting: It's because we grew up loving this style of play. Hockey is known for it's hard hits, fights, brawls, that is one of the things that makes it so different than other sports. Growing up watching a team with guys like Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Shanahan, Konstantinov, Rouse, Drake, Primeau, etc... you fall in love with that style of play, you love to see your team physically abuse the other team, you lose to see emotion bowl over and a fight takes place between your favourite player and your team's #1 rival. You won't be getting that with the new Red Wings squad. Some of us just can't accept the fact that our hockey team that we have rooted for forever has adapted a new strategy where they back down from physical play and let the referees handle it, I am definitely one of those fans.

To those who can't stand to watch the team without ONE single fighter on the squad: Get that satisfaction from another team, plain and simple. It's not going to happen so it's best to just accept the team for what they are, a highly skilled European style team. Watch the Wings if you want to see highlight reel goals and great passing, but get your fix of hitting and fighting by watching other teams.

Spamming this board with new threads about the same old thing just gets everyone riled up and putting each other down, just accept the team for what it has become, it is what it is.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Wow, Skacore, nice post! I'm exhausted reading it, let alone you typing it. Good point though.

To clarify one thing though; I don't 'start threads' to 'SPAM' as you put it. That terminology doesn't fit my posts imo.

I'm a Red Wing fan for many years, I still support the team I love. I buy tickets; therefore, I'm a consumer of a product. I get every right to also critisize that product I purchase. Nobody has to read my posts, I realize this.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Wow, Skacore, nice post! I'm exhausted reading it, let alone you typing it. Good point though.

To clarify one thing though; I don't 'start threads' to 'SPAM' as you put it. That terminology doesn't fit my posts imo.

I'm a Red Wing fan for many years, I still support the team I love. I buy tickets; therefore, I'm a consumer of a product. I get every right to also critisize that product I purchase. Nobody has to read my posts, I realize this.

I completely support you there.

And I will add that Holland would KILL to have a Lucic type player that can crash, bang, fight, skate and score. The last time the Wings had the draft position to do so was... well the 80's That's the main thing. Teams don't throw that type of player away... small, skilled players that bloom late are a much easier thing to draft from the bottom of the board.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Drake_Marcus

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Wow, I think skacore gets post of the year and this should be stickied for every rehashed goalie thread and ________ is lazy and sucks or ____ should be traded for ______ threads.

Great stuff

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Genius is often realized years later ....

[Guest Shoreline]

Genius is often realized years later ....

I don't get it. They're only calling him up because others are injured. I agree we need an enforcer, but don't be full of yourself.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Another enforcer debate? Haha, this place is no different from when I left it.

You already know where I stand on this issue, so... *declines further comment*

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Another enforcer debate? Haha, this place is no different from when I left it.

You already know where I stand on this issue, so... *declines further comment*

Welcome back to the fight.

What were you on Easter Island all this time that you couldn't post?

[Guest Shoreline]

Downey came back, and the Wings kicked the Stars ass. Good call.

[thedisappearer 291]

Downey came back, and the Wings kicked the Stars ass. Good call.

And got sent right back down.