Worried About Hudler

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Leino is the only player with even a hope of the talent of Hudler - yet Hudler is already miles better and they are about the same age. Strange thing is Leino also likes to go straight to the net - like Franzen.

Did you have anyone else in mind?

Datsyuk is the only player currently on the team who has Hudler's playmaking ability.

Franzen is a decent two-way forward - and we have a ton of those. He is a good goal scorer, and we already have and may continue to have any of Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hudler, Holmstrom, Cleary, Samuelsson.

Franzen goes to the front of the net - so does Holmstrom, Cleary, Kopecky and Abdelkader.

For me -- it is who is more replaceable between Filppula or Franzen?

Welcome to the board!

unfortunately, Filppula isn't playing up to his contract, so he would be harder to get rid of. He may get us a 2nd round pick at best (since we have no room to add a roster player.) Hudler would get you at least a 1st and 3rd (maybe a 1st, 2nd & 3rd.) This isn't rocket science.

[SDavis35 140]

What are you serious? Then we'd be forced to pay him something! And that something could interfere with the Cap! Stuff Hudler, let him sign for $4 million elsewhere. We damn well couldn't trade him for a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd! Get Hossa under contract NOW and then see who wants to stay, Franzen or Hudler. But as I have maintained for weeks now, it makes better business sense to see if Huds will get any offers from other teams, and if he'll sign it.

if arbitration MAKES you pay Hudler $3.5 million, then you are screwed for ALL of your remaining F/A's, including Leino, Sammy, Kopecky and you can forget about bringing up Helm, you'll lose Ericsson to the waiver since he is out of options and he cannot be paid because of Hudler. Howard too!

Tell Hudler it was nice, you've become a heck of a player, but there simply isn't room for you unless you accept $1.5 million.

Seems to me that Kenny has most of our players in check. Either they stick around to win and take paycut, or go out for the money, and we still win. Can't complain about anything here.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

unfortunately, Filppula isn't playing up to his contract, so he would be harder to get rid of. He may get us a 2nd round pick at best (since we have no room to add a roster player.) Hudler would get you at least a 1st and 3rd (maybe a 1st, 2nd & 3rd.) This isn't rocket science.

If you honestly believe that, then you're dumb as a brick.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Red Wings fans are so deluded some times

Agreed. I don't understand the illogic around here. It makes me question if people are focusing more on their beer burping contests or the actual game at hand. If you watch the game without any biases, its apparent that Hudler is a great offensive player. This is whats not rocket science.

[redwings604 0]

Well, if someone offers him a ridiculous contract, we get a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick, so that's something.

in that case let them we need defenceman anyways

[greenrebellion 415]

I think we need to trade Val. We really need Hudler's playmaking ability b/c with Zetterberg and Datsuyk on the same line, Hudler's the next best playmaker. Would be nice to free up $3.5MM in salary as well and I have to believe we have people that could fill in pretty nicely for Val...Helm for example as a nice third line center down the road?

[dawings1905 2]

Leino is the only player with even a hope of the talent of Hudler - yet Hudler is already miles better and they are about the same age. Strange thing is Leino also likes to go straight to the net - like Franzen.

Did you have anyone else in mind?

Datsyuk is the only player currently on the team who has Hudler's playmaking ability.

Franzen is a decent two-way forward - and we have a ton of those. He is a good goal scorer, and we already have and may continue to have any of Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hudler, Holmstrom, Cleary, Samuelsson.

Franzen goes to the front of the net - so does Holmstrom, Cleary, Kopecky and Abdelkader.

For me -- it is who is more replaceable between Filppula or Franzen?

Welcome to the board!

Thanks for the welcome, and we probably won't see completely eye to eye. Honestly I hate to see either of them go. I think Hudler has contined to just get better and better. For the most part I do agree with your assessments, but do differ a little. When comparing Franzen to Homer, Cleary, Kopecky, and Adbelkader I see it as yes they all go to the front of the net, but Franzens Size and Ability to make plays on his own with the puck separates him from Homer, Kopecky and A. While no one is better than Homer in front of the net, to me he is behind Franzen in playmaking with the puck (plus he is getting up there in age). Kopecky and Ab have a ways to go before we see what they will be. Cleary is good with the puck, but doesn't have the size. As for Hudler the main one I can see taking his place in time is Leino. I would like to throw Helm in there because their size is comparable, but just haven't seen the a ton of playmaking ability yet. Love his speed though. I think comparing Helm to Hudler is the same as comparing Kopecky and Ab to Franzen. I just see far less true Power Forwards in the league than smaller playmakers. Which is why I think Franzen would be harder to replace. When you look at what we have done in the past we have had a real ability to find players that turn out to be smaller playmakers (Datsyuk, Z, Huds, and possibly Leino) Whereas Power Forwards with one on one playmaking ability we have found??? However, with all that said I don't think there is a wrong or right answer. I think either way we go we will be just fine, and I truely trust the judgement of our staff. I guess we will just have to wait and see what they do. Again, not saying you are wrong because I can definately see justification for keeping Huds. It's a tough decision for the Wings, but a problem lots of teams would love to have. Man it's good to be a Wings fan. Hope I didn't upset the masses too much with my opinion.

[TheUkrainian 49]

just give Hudler some booze and let Holland talk to him.

Hudler won't leave, who else will bump heads and cluck at Ozzie?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I think we need to trade Val. We really need Hudler's playmaking ability b/c with Zetterberg and Datsuyk on the same line, Hudler's the next best playmaker. Would be nice to free up $3.5MM in salary as well and I have to believe we have people that could fill in pretty nicely for Val...Helm for example as a nice third line center down the road?

I'm not opposed to trading Val, but he makes 3M, not 3.5M. The smarter choice would be to trade Stuart, who makes 750k more. The Wings didn't miss Stuart before the playoffs, and didnt miss him after. Its very possible that the way Stuart played in the playoffs is the best we'll ever see of him.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

If you honestly believe that, then you're dumb as a brick.

so you are saying that Filppula would be easier to trade than letting Hudler sign woth someone else? Because it is Filppula that is not playing up to his $3 million contract right now, so a lot of teams would consider him overpaid. Now Hudler at $3 million (to most other teams) looks a lot better than Filppula at $3 Million. They way you need things explained to you, it may as well be rocket science. Face it, Hudler just may be gone next season, then who's teet you gonna suck on?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Thanks for the welcome, and we probably won't see completely eye to eye. Honestly I hate to see either of them go. I think Hudler has contined to just get better and better. For the most part I do agree with your assessments, but do differ a little. When comparing Franzen to Homer, Cleary, Kopecky, and Adbelkader I see it as yes they all go to the front of the net, but Franzens Size and Ability to make plays on his own with the puck separates him from Homer, Kopecky and A. While no one is better than Homer in front of the net, to me he is behind Franzen in playmaking with the puck (plus he is getting up there in age). Kopecky and Ab have a ways to go before we see what they will be. Cleary is good with the puck, but doesn't have the size. As for Hudler the main one I can see taking his place in time is Leino. I would like to throw Helm in there because their size is comparable, but just haven't seen the a ton of playmaking ability yet. Love his speed though. I think comparing Helm to Hudler is the same as comparing Kopecky and Ab to Franzen. I just see far less true Power Forwards in the league than smaller playmakers. Which is why I think Franzen would be harder to replace. When you look at what we have done in the past we have had a real ability to find players that turn out to be smaller playmakers (Datsyuk, Z, Huds, and possibly Leino) Whereas Power Forwards with one on one playmaking ability we have found??? However, with all that said I don't think there is a wrong or right answer. I think either way we go we will be just fine, and I truely trust the judgement of our staff. I guess we will just have to wait and see what they do. Again, not saying you are wrong because I can definately see justification for keeping Huds. It's a tough decision for the Wings, but a problem lots of teams would love to have. Man it's good to be a Wings fan. Hope I didn't upset the masses too much with my opinion.

First of all, Franzen has no playmaking skill. If he did, he'd have more assists, and we probably wouldn't even be having this debate.

Second of all, I love how you seem to think Helm might somehow be in Hudler's league, just because hes similar in size. That pretty much sums up the thinking on this board. Despite the fact that Hudler produces at a top line rate, Helm can probably catch up to him in offensive talent. The emphasis on Franzen vs. Hudler's size has become the single most overdone and overrated differentiation between the two guys.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

so you are saying that Filppula would be easier to trade than letting Hudler sign woth someone else? Because it is Filppula that is not playing up to his $3 million contract right now, so a lot of teams would consider him overpaid. Now Hudler at $3 million (to most other teams) looks a lot better than Filppula at $3 Million. They way you need things explained to you, it may as well be rocket science. Face it, Hudler just may be gone next season, then who's teet you gonna suck on?

First of all, icing the best team possible is better than potential returns. You don't judge who to trade based on trade value when one player is significantly better than the other. I suppose we should keep Samuelsson then, and trade Zetterberg, because he'd get much better in return.

Second of all, Hudler at $3M means hes a Red Wing. The Wings don't let him go for $3M.

It would be nice if you tried using some logic.

PS. I love how you think Filppula would only garner a 2nd round pick when Hal Gill got a 2nd and a 5th as a PK specialist making over $2M.

Edited February 13, 2009 by YoungGuns1340

[EuroTwin 240]

Doesn't Hudler have to accept said theoretical ridiculous offer sheet? Can't he just say, 'no thanks' to whomever offers it and continue on his happy way with the Wings if he so chooses? Or am I completely mental and thinking of some other thing?

[egroen 384]

Thanks for the welcome, and we probably won't see completely eye to eye. Honestly I hate to see either of them go. I think Hudler has contined to just get better and better. For the most part I do agree with your assessments, but do differ a little. When comparing Franzen to Homer, Cleary, Kopecky, and Adbelkader I see it as yes they all go to the front of the net, but Franzens Size and Ability to make plays on his own with the puck separates him from Homer, Kopecky and A. While no one is better than Homer in front of the net, to me he is behind Franzen in playmaking with the puck (plus he is getting up there in age). Kopecky and Ab have a ways to go before we see what they will be. Cleary is good with the puck, but doesn't have the size. As for Hudler the main one I can see taking his place in time is Leino. I would like to throw Helm in there because their size is comparable, but just haven't seen the a ton of playmaking ability yet. Love his speed though. I think comparing Helm to Hudler is the same as comparing Kopecky and Ab to Franzen. I just see far less true Power Forwards in the league than smaller playmakers. Which is why I think Franzen would be harder to replace. When you look at what we have done in the past we have had a real ability to find players that turn out to be smaller playmakers (Datsyuk, Z, Huds, and possibly Leino) Whereas Power Forwards with one on one playmaking ability we have found??? However, with all that said I don't think there is a wrong or right answer. I think either way we go we will be just fine, and I truely trust the judgement of our staff. I guess we will just have to wait and see what they do. Again, not saying you are wrong because I can definately see justification for keeping Huds. It's a tough decision for the Wings, but a problem lots of teams would love to have. Man it's good to be a Wings fan. Hope I didn't upset the masses too much with my opinion.

Yeah, these are good problems to have!

Again, Leino is actually older than Hudler -- Hudler is already producing at a similar pace in the NHL (with third line minutes) to what Leino is producing at in the AHL (with first line minutes). When Hudler was years younger than what Leino is now, he was leading the AHL in scoring and set a Griffins franchise record for assists -- Leino is not even close to what Hudler was years ago.

And I actually think Leino could be your Franzen guy - he has good hands, goes to the net and can score the deflections and is a much better playmaker. Just does not have the size (his size is more comparable to Holmstrom).

Holmstrom is actually a better passer than Franzen - Franzen really sucks at passing. As long as we have Holmstrom, we still have a few years to train a Cleary, Kopecky, Leino, Abdelkader, whomever to get better in front of the net -- though I agree Franzen is second best at it right now.

I would love it if Franzen was a power forward - but he simply isn't. He rarely hits and certainly does not fight. He's more like a Robert Lang than a power forward - someone who uses his big body to his advantage, but is not out there punishing anyone like a Shanahan in his hey-day.

Franzen may have two inches on Cleary, but he has less than 10 pounds on him.

Helm has nowhere near the offensive abilities of Hudler -- or even the potential. Maybe Filppula, but I wouldn't go further than that.

Edited February 13, 2009 by egroen

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Doesn't Hudler have to accept said theoretical ridiculous offer sheet? Can't he just say, 'no thanks' to whomever offers it and continue on his happy way with the Wings if he so chooses? Or am I completely mental and thinking of some other thing?

Yup. He can reject it.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Agreed. I don't understand the illogic around here. It makes me question if people are focusing more on their beer burping contests or the actual game at hand. If you watch the game without any biases, its apparent that Hudler is a great offensive player. This is whats not rocket science.

It helps when a guy like Marian Hossa can set you up.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

First of all, icing the best team possible is better than potential returns. You don't judge who to trade based on trade value when one player is significantly better than the other. I suppose we should keep Samuelsson then, and trade Zetterberg, because he'd get much better in return.

Second of all, Hudler at $3M means hes a Red Wing. The Wings don't let him go for $3M.

It would be nice if you tried using some logic.

Hudler at $3M, means either Franzen walks for free or Val gets traded. Cannot pay Hossa $6M (if that is what it turns out to be) Val $3M and Huds $3M. Then you can forget about re-siging Leino, and bringing up Helm/Ericsson/Howard because there is only $9.4M available. So Hudler signs for $3M and you lose Leino to F/A and Ericsson/Howard to waiver. Yeah, Hudler is WELL worth keeping for that price. I have said all along that Val has to be traded in order to re-sign Hossa and either Huds or Franzen, but neither of which would sign for $3M. If Huds wants more than $2M (which he is worth considering Filpulla's contract) he walks. Now if you let Franzen walk and trade Val, then you could give Hudler $3M, that would wash with Val's contract. But you need that extra $3.4M to resign Leino and bring upi Helm/Ericsson and Howard (or re-sign Conklin.) Icing the best team means re-signing Hossa. Franzen and/or Hudler should see this and sign for a discount. Either way, Val just may be gone as well.

[GROwl 5]

What talent?

You mean when he was playing with Helm and McCarty in the playoffs?

With Kopecky and Filppula in the AHL and in the NHL?

With Samuelsson and Cleary?

With all of 13 minutes a game?

I've seen it before in these forums when it was suggested that Hudler's being #3 in the AHL in points in the year before he moved up to the Wings was attributable to his "better" teammates. Its not true. Hudler didn't play on the MacLean line when Don MacLean was the AHL goal leader (Matt Ellis and Nate Discasmirro were MacLean's linemates). Hudler didn't play with Kopecky and Filppula (Darryl Bootland was their linemate).

Hudler's main linemates were Eric Manlow and Kent McDonell - both of whose aggregate NHL games don't add up to one season. The year they played with Hudler was by far the best season either of them ever had. That wasn't a coincidence. The common thread was Hudler. His teammates didn't make him better. He made them better.

Whether he plays with Detroit or ends up on another team, its my opinion that his stats will continue to move upward.

Edited February 13, 2009 by GROwl

[egroen 384]

It helps when a guy like Marian Hossa can set you up.

For one game now?

[going_top_shelf 6]

His wiki page says his half brother is Devon Setoguchi....is that true? BTW, I'd be sad to see him go.

[dawings1905 2]

Yeah, these are good problems to have!

Again, Leino is actually older than Hudler -- Hudler is already producing at a similar pace in the NHL (with third line minutes) to what Leino is producing at in the AHL (with first line minutes). When Hudler was years younger than what Leino is now, he was leading the AHL in scoring and set a Griffins franchise record for assists -- Leino is not even close to what Hudler was years ago.

And I actually think Leino could be your Franzen guy - he has good hands, goes to the net and can score the deflections and is a much better playmaker. Just does not have the size (his size is more comparable to Holmstrom).

Holmstrom is actually a better passer than Franzen - Franzen really sucks at passing. As long as we have Holmstrom, we still have a few years to train a Cleary, Kopecky, Leino, Abdelkader, whomever to get better in front of the net -- though I agree Franzen is second best at it right now.

I would love it if Franzen was a power forward - but he simply isn't. He rarely hits and certainly does not fight. He's more like a Robert Lang than a power forward - someone who uses his big body to his advantage, but is not out there punishing anyone like a Shanahan in his hey-day.

Franzen may have two inches on Cleary, but he has less than 10 pounds on him.

Helm has nowhere near the offensive abilities of Hudler -- or even the potential. Maybe Filppula, but I wouldn't go further than that.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There are a couple things I would like to clear up though. I wish I could read my other post while posting this because I am trying to find out why you think I said Helm was as good as Huds. Because I agree with you that Helm doesn't have the abilities of Huds. While I mentioned him as a possible replacement, that does not mean I think he is as good. If that were the case then that would mean that in your post from before you though Kopecky was as good as Franzen. Which I don't think is what you were trying to say, was it? Do you see where I am coming from on that? I think we were just talking about possible replacements (usually the replacement isn't as good, or else they wouldn't be a replacement) I also think that your definition of Power Forward may be different than mine. Everyone has their own definition of Power Forward (But will agree that by your definition Franzen doesn't fit the bill), and it doesn't mean they are right, I am right, or you are right. Just different opinions on what it is. Same goes for Playmaker. Holmstrom is the better passer, but I still think playmaker has more to it than passing, and yes I know the definition of a player getting a "playmaker" during the game. I am talking about the ability to make plays one on one, and not needing someone else to set you up. Put it this way, I would rather have Franzen streaking down the ice one on one than Holmstom. Just my opinion (don't bash me too much. LOL). As for the Power Forward I see in him...... He is strong on the puck, very tough to get him off the puck (And has that immovable object ability). He is strong in front of the net. Bottom line is Homer is going to be gone soon, and if Franzen goes that leaves Cleary. I guess we will have to wait and see who the wings managment deems to be the more important piece. Even then though it does not make one's assessment incorrect.

Bottom line is it is going to suck to lose either. I can also see where you are coming from as you have a lot of valid points. Keep in mind, my opinion from above is based mostly on what I saw last season. I have only gotten to see a couple of games this year (maybe 4 or 5), I live in Alaska, and if it isn't on TV I do not get to watch. Hope I didn't make anyone angry with my opinion as that wasn't my intention. After this post I will move on.

[egroen 384]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There are a couple things I would like to clear up though. I wish I could read my other post while posting this because I am trying to find out why you think I said Helm was as good as Huds. Because I agree with you that Helm doesn't have the abilities of Huds. While I mentioned him as a possible replacement, that does not mean I think he is as good. If that were the case then that would mean that in your post from before you though Kopecky was as good as Franzen. Which I don't think is what you were trying to say, was it? Do you see where I am coming from on that? I think we were just talking about possible replacements (usually the replacement isn't as good, or else they wouldn't be a replacement) I also think that your definition of Power Forward may be different than mine. Everyone has their own definition of Power Forward (But will agree that by your definition Franzen doesn't fit the bill), and it doesn't mean they are right, I am right, or you are right. Just different opinions on what it is. Same goes for Playmaker. Holmstrom is the better passer, but I still think playmaker has more to it than passing, and yes I know the definition of a player getting a "playmaker" during the game. I am talking about the ability to make plays one on one, and not needing someone else to set you up. Put it this way, I would rather have Franzen streaking down the ice one on one than Holmstom. Just my opinion (don't bash me too much. LOL). As for the Power Forward I see in him...... He is strong on the puck, very tough to get him off the puck (And has that immovable object ability). He is strong in front of the net. Bottom line is Homer is going to be gone soon, and if Franzen goes that leaves Cleary. I guess we will have to wait and see who the wings managment deems to be the more important piece. Even then though it does not make one's assessment incorrect.

Bottom line is it is going to suck to lose either. I can also see where you are coming from as you have a lot of valid points. Keep in mind, my opinion from above is based mostly on what I saw last season. I have only gotten to see a couple of games this year (maybe 4 or 5), I live in Alaska, and if it isn't on TV I do not get to watch. Hope I didn't make anyone angry with my opinion as that wasn't my intention. After this post I will move on.

There are live streams to each game if you have internet access - there is a thread here with the site somewhere.

I think Holmstrom will be around for a few more years at the very least. It's not like his game relies on speed - and Cicarrelli was certainly able to enjoy a long career. Regardless, I do not think anyone is crazy for wanting to keep Franzen around in favor of Hudler... I just see so much more potential in Hudler, that I am getting the jitters thinking of him tearing it up with some other team. I really think he is a unique talent. The points he has put up, with the minutes and linemates he has had, is truly unique. I just have this same feeling about him that I did when Datsyuk was in his first couple years - just a guy that has nowhere to go but up. I really think we have seen everything there is to see on Franzen, and it is good, but if Hudler comes cheaper or at the same price, there really is no question in my opinion.

Finally - Hudler had another point today. Franzen was blanked, again, because he is injured, again.

Edited February 14, 2009 by egroen

[dawings1905 2]

There are live streams to each game if you have internet access - there is a thread here with the site somewhere.

I think Holmstrom will be around for a few more years at the very least. It's not like his game relies on speed - and Cicarrelli was certainly able to enjoy a long career. Regardless, I do not think anyone is crazy for wanting to keep Franzen around in favor of Hudler... I just see so much more potential in Hudler, that I am getting the jitters thinking of him tearing it up with some other team. I really think he is a unique talent. The points he has put up, with the minutes and linemates he has had, is truly unique. I just have this same feeling about him that I did when Datsyuk was in his first couple years - just a guy that has nowhere to go but up. I really think we have seen everything there is to see on Franzen, and it is good, but if Hudler comes cheaper or at the same price, there really is no question in my opinion.

Finally - Hudler had another point today. Franzen was blanked, again, because he is injured, again.

I do hear you on the potential with Huds. I would hate to see him go as well. With that said, I defer to wings mangament, as more times than not..... they get it right. I don't know that we have seen the full potential in either player. If Franzen can stay healthy? They may be a big if, or maybe the guy stays healthy from here on out. Who knows really? It will be interesting to analyze their careers from here on out (would be nice if the analysis came while both wearing the winged wheel). I do know that it is somewhat of a crapshoot. Who would have thought Lapointe would have fizzled like he did? Who would have thought Feds would basically be a solid contributor after he left? You just never know, but it is fun to speculate. BTW, the only way I thought you could watch was through the NHL.com, and I don't have the money for that. Is there somewhere else your are talking about???? I would really love to be able to see more of the games, and any info would be greatly appreciated. The winters are cold, boring, and dark here with nothing but hockey to sooth the soul. I do get to attend alot of games here, and my kid plays. Actually got to see Kopecky play alot when he was in the E. (Idaho Steelheads)

Oh, if Franzen could bottle up what he did towards the end of last year then I don't think we would even be having this friendly debate. That was something special.

Appreciate the friendly debate my friend.

[dawings1905 2]

One more thing. You think Homer has more than a couple years left in the tank? Sure would like to see him as long as possible. As long as he doesn't hang on as long as chelly.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

It helps when a guy like Marian Hossa can set you up.

But even better with a guy like Datsyuk to set you up.