Filppula has the most Even Strength points after Z, D, Hossa

[Ms_Hockey 0]

I stopped reading after you rudely decided to label everyone "uneducated" for not agreeing with you.

I, personally, am not ready to give up on Flip. I want to see how he produces come playoff time and base my decision from there. At this moment, I'm not seeing a $3m forward - I'm just not. And I really don't understand how anybody can say that basing their opinions off of stats - cold hard math - is wrong. I like Flip - I really do. I'm rooting for him to show everybody wrong.. and I'm still waiting.

Maybe it's because of the line he plays on. Maybe it's because he's saving his energy for the playoffs. Whatever it is, to say he's producing to the capacity that he's capable of is plain wrong. He has more potential than 60% of this team - and he's proved it. I don't hate him.. I just want him to tap into it again. That's all.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

Babcock gives Flips more ice time for a reason. WHY??? Hes the best guy to have on the ice. That right there makes him our 4th best forward.

Is that why Babcock continues to put Osgood in net over Conklin? Because he's the best guy to have on the ice?

Absolutely not.

He plays the players who are falling short as much as possible when he has enough depth to cover for any mistakes. Why? To give that player extra conditioning - extra time to get on the ball. It's what coaches do. You do everything in your power help the players reach their potential. Flip would never tap into his potential sitting on the bench for 95% of the game.. and Babs knows that.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Possibly because you said HE IS THE 4th BEST FORWARD ON THE TEAM, Not 4th best two- way threat (which he isn't)

When the coach of your hockey team gives a player the 4th most ice time out of the forwards. Doesn't that mean hes your 4th "Best" forward. When your coach trusts Flip on the ice over the guys were comparing to. Doesn't that mean hes the better player? I clearly said i think hes the 4th best player. When the coash gives him the 4th most responsibilities doesn't that mean hes your 4th best forward?

To be a 4th best player requires offensive and defensive upside. Which means 2 way threat. Sorry you don't understand simple things. Maybe ill write a version for little kids to beable to understand just for you.

It's not opinion. It's simple common knoweldge. When Holland si willing to pay Flipulla over 4 million then we can talk, but until then, I trust his evaluation of talent moreso than yours.

Um Franzens not making more than Flips right now there buddy.

Considering on ES he plays with typically better or the same linemates as Hudler, he is making less use of his time in terms of offensive production. He is not ALWAYS AGAISNT THE OTHER TEAM's TOP LINE, in fact it normally is Datsyuk's line, Babcock has always said he loves going power line to power line, as he ours is the best 2- way line in the leauge. You just make up facts to support your bulls*** and biased claims.

Do you watch the games? Yes bab does like to do that, but if you pay attention to the games something he likes to do isn't always what he does do. Flips plays against top lines on a regular basis. This is fact not fiction.

I'll admit, I didnt read your whole post, just skimmed it and missed the ES part, but for you too even think what your saying is absoloutly laughable. Your first sentence destroys all your opinions crediblity for the matter, and for the record, don't flatter yourself in thinking I'd actually try to make myself sound smarter than I am to prove your point. It's uneeded with people like you

Yeah someone that rates players by the stat sheet would hold an opinion of that sort. Stick to the more general topics. If your a casual viewer stick to casual topics. You don't belong of discussion about hockey with me.

[Datsyerberger 279]

The majority of responses in this thread, so far, are a good measuring stick for how underrated Flip is on these boards.

Flip is clearly our 6th/7th best forward, which is obviously why he's 3rd in ES time for forwards. Clearly Babcock and crew thinks he sucks so much that he should play him more minutes in the most important play time in hockey than all those other obviously better players.

Did it ever occur to some of you that he doesn't get as much PP time because there are 9 PP-worthy forwards on this team? And that they're chosen ahead of him not because of overall offensive talent, but because he's the better option than most of them on the PK and at ES, and that his endurance is best saved for those crucial minutes? Maybe, even though he doesn't have higher points/min at ES than some of those players, he's played more at ES because his production is more CONSISTENT at that amount of ice time?

Or Babcock, the most successful current coach in the NHL, is just a ******* idiot.

Not usually one for quoting myself, but I'd like to see some replies to this.

I think a lot of you are overlooking the fact that if he had just 2 more minutes of PP time a game (about 2 shifts worth), he'd be getting about the same amount of ice time as Marian Hossa, tying him for 3rd among forwards. That also means that the players he'd be replacing on those shifts would be playing less. When you factor in something fantasy hockey tends to overlook, endurance, it becomes obvious that it's much more efficient to play those other players on the PP, even if he's just as offensively talented.. because he's more useful than they are in other, more strenuous situations.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Is that why Babcock continues to put Osgood in net over Conklin? Because he's the best guy to have on the ice?

Absolutely not.

He plays the players who are falling short as much as possible when he has enough depth to cover for any mistakes. Why? To give that player extra conditioning - extra time to get on the ball. It's what coaches do. You do everything in your power help the players reach their potential. Flip would never tap into his potential sitting on the bench for 95% of the game.. and Babs knows that.

Although i don't agree. I'm glad to see that there are some people that are logical well thought thinkers around here. Your one of the few i have seen that can think outside the box.

My opinion on the goalie thing. Detroit in recent years tends to run two goalies. Create competition for the job. Which is exactly what there doing this year. Osgood and Conklin for the most part split ice time. On top of this Osgood is playing because of the way Osgood has played for years. Babs is giving him the benifit of the doubt he can get himself back to his normal self. It's not the same comparison as Flip though.

You might be thinking well thats exactly my point. Babcocks trying to get Flip going too. This is where we depart again. Flip is not in a slump, Flip is playing great. Just as good as last year if not better. Flip gets ice time because Babs can trust him on the ice. When we are in 2-2 games you don't just play Flip because you think he needs work for playoff time and want to develop him. You play him because you know at the end of his shift the scores still going to be 2-2.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Not usually one for quoting myself, but I'd like to see some replies to this.

I think a lot of you are overlooking the fact that if he had just 2 more minutes of PP time a game (about 2 shifts worth), he'd be getting about the same amount of ice time as Marian Hossa, tying him for 3rd among forwards. That also means that the players he'd be replacing on those shifts would be playing less. When you factor in something fantasy hockey tends to overlook, endurance, it becomes obvious that it's much more efficient to play those other players on the PP, even if he's just as offensively talented.. because he's more useful than they are in other, more strenuous situations.

Couldn't have said it better. You nailed it.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

Although i don't agree. I'm glad to see that there are some people that are logical well thought thinkers around here. Your one of the few i have seen that can think outside the box.

My opinion on the goalie thing. Detroit in recent years tends to run two goalies. Create competition for the job. Which is exactly what there doing this year. Osgood and Conklin for the most part split ice time. On top of this Osgood is playing because of the way Osgood has played for years. Babs is giving him the benifit of the doubt he can get himself back to his normal self. It's not the same comparison as Flip though.

You might be thinking well thats exactly my point. Babcocks trying to get Flip going too. This is where we depart again. Flip is not in a slump, Flip is playing great. Just as good as last year if not better. Flip gets ice time because Babs can trust him on the ice. When we are in 2-2 games you don't just play Flip because you think he needs work for playoff time and want to develop him. You play him because you know at the end of his shift the scores still going to be 2-2.

I'll have to respectfully disagree on most of your post. You and I do part ways when it comes to why Flip is put on the ice. But, as I said, I'm not giving up on him. I'm rooting for a great playoff run from Flip - and hoping he's just saving up his energy.

I will agree with this much, though - I have noticed that Flip's defensive skills are extremely consistent. You're absolutely right when you say that the score is going to remain 2-2 with Flip on the ice. I just really want him to tap into the offensive power that he showed in the playoffs last season as well.

[Guest MrSandMan]

if Val's salary keeps us from resigning one of Hudler/Franzen, then you'd have to be an idiot to want to keep him.

So when Holland lets Hudler or Franzen walk and keeps Filppula, then he's an "idiot? Okay

Maybe Illich should just fire the entire Red Wings' organization and hire you.

[under_par_00 45]

Or Babcock, the most successful current coach in the NHL, is just a ******* idiot.

Ahaha

Filppula is very underrated on these boards. He is great defensively, and I for one thinks he has a lot of potential. Learning from the likes of Datsyuk will only make his game better as time goes on. I would be sad to see him go.

While Filppula is not a goal scorer, Franzen is and who can forget Hossa? Franzen is not a playmaker AT ALL. Filppula has decent speed, great puck control, and is a good passer. As he gets more experience, and more chances to play with better players, he will produce. I think he will become a great player, and he is already half-way there.

I would like to see Filppula centering the second line with Hossa and Hudler on his wing next year.

[Guest MrSandMan]

The majority of responses in this thread, so far, are a good measuring stick for how underrated Flip is on these boards.

I agree. Sometimes I wonder of LGW posters actually watch the game.

[p_diddy_datsyuk_13 2]

I don't disagree that Filppula will, someday, be a very good player. One thing I have noticed, however, are the fundamentals. This is an area that Val could stand to improve upon. He often struggles with puck handling, while carrying the puck up ice and even more in traffic. He is also not the strongest on his feet. While he does have very good speed, he seems to stumble, often multiple times in a shift.

It is no coincidence that Jiri Hudler has more points than Filppula. While Filppula has been trusted with more defensive responsibility than a few others, I think he has been terribly overrated. Hudler, in nearly three fewer minutes of ice-time per game, is substantially outperforming Filppula, and while often playing on the 3rd or 4th line, while Filppula has frequently, if only for a period, been on the 1st and 2nd lines this year. Hudler's defensive abilities have noticably improved this year, warranting more ice-time, but that has not happened.

Mike Babcock feels that Filppula is going to be one of the best players in the game someday, which I feel is a bit far-fetched, and has given him the preference in ice-time as a result. Hudler is now a well rounded player, that on any other team would at minimum be a second line player.

Filppula is in no way our fourth best forward, with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Franzen AND Hudler, who are ALL outperforming him offensively and all sound defensively, Filppula MIGHT be the sixth best two-way player. You have to consider who all of these guys are playing with. Franzen came here to play defense and has managed to hone his offensive skills and still play a menacing defensive game. Hudler, as previously mentioned, has played most of the year with some guys not known to have the most prowessing defensive abilities, in Samuelsson and Draper who has struggled for much of the year in that regard.

I think Filppula can become a good player in the not-too-distant future, but Hudler is a good player now, and has demonstrated this in very limited ice-time, and certainly needs to be rated above Filppula in this discussion. Mike Babcock needs to start treating Hudler as such and the team will reap the benefits. The last couple games, Hudler has seen a bit of time playing with Marian Hossa and Filppula/Leino and the two have been stellar together, and we need to see more of that.

On a related note, it is going to be very disappointing to see Hudler forced to leave this summer because the team wants to try to be greedy and keep Hossa and Franzen. The Tampa Bay Lightning tried to do this a few years ago, with Richards, St. Louis, and Lecavalier and ended up hurting their team in the process. The Wing's are going to attempt to carry five or six players with $6 Million+ cap numbers, and are willing to part with part of their future in the process. There is now little doubt that the cap will fall after next year, and tieing up so many expensive players, will eventually force them to do what the lightning had to do and parcel off one or more of them so they can just fill up their roster with NHL caliber players. I would like to see Samuelsson leave to give guys like Leino and Helm a chance, but not Hudler. Especially considering he could likely be signed for a price comparable to that of Filppula, a number that, to this point, Filppula has not lived up to.

The bottom line is, that with TIME Filppula will become a good player, KEYWORD: TIME. He isn't holding up his end of the $3 Million cap number right now. The team continues to put more and more faith in him, and in the short term, it could end up hurting the team significantly, as others who are more deserving of ice-time and more productive with less are riding the pine, in the prime example of Jiri Hudler.

Edited February 17, 2009 by p_diddy_datsyuk_13

[under_par_00 45]

I'll have to respectfully disagree on most of your post. You and I do part ways when it comes to why Flip is put on the ice. But, as I said, I'm not giving up on him. I'm rooting for a great playoff run from Flip - and hoping he's just saving up his energy.

I will agree with this much, though - I have noticed that Flip's defensive skills are extremely consistent. You're absolutely right when you say that the score is going to remain 2-2 with Flip on the ice. I just really want him to tap into the offensive power that he showed in the playoffs last season as well.

I dont get why some people on these boards think that Filppula had a great playoff run last year. Dont get me wrong, I think he played well in the playoffs, but it isnt like he produced a hell of a lot more.

He had 11 points (5g 6a) in 22 playoff games.

He had 36 points (19g 17a) in 78 regular season games.

That looks pretty consistent to me.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

I dont get why some people on these boards think that Filppula had a great playoff run last year. Dont get me wrong, I think he played well in the playoffs, but it isnt like he produced a hell of a lot more.

He had 11 points (5g 6a) in 22 playoff games.

He had 36 points (19g 17a) in 78 regular season games.

That looks pretty consistent to me.

Forgive me.. I wasn't here during the regular season last year - I was in France.. so my dad would tell me the games rather than me watching them. I came home in March and watched the playoffs - which is when I became initially impressed with Flip to begin with.

That's why I said it that way. I didn't mean anything else by it - I'm sorry.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Because simply put, he is lying. Flipulla is by no means our 4th or even 5th best forward currently

That's just pretty brash and uncalled for especially when the topic and discussion is so subjective.

[DreamsofHope 2]

Babcock must just be an idiot. I mean its not like hes an NHL coach or anything. LGW posters seem to know alot more than Babs.

See the funny thing here is. All you guys run Flips down and argue my post. I have Babcock on my side. You guys have score sheets influencing your minds with no logical explanations or concepts behind any of your reasoning.

Babcock gives Flips more ice time for a reason. WHY??? Hes the best guy to have on the ice. That right there makes him our 4th best forward.

I don't think it is fair to put a clear cut definition on best though. I think it is relative. Everyone has a role to play. Holmstrom, when in front of the net is the 'best'. How many goals are scored from him alone, whether he touches it or not. He is the best net front presence in the league. So, I don't think you can put 'Best' into a box.

[seeinred 1,488]

lol yeah

That's why Babcock does not play him on PP. What a stupid coach. Only if he read LGW.

Filppula is bad offensively, he does not shoot and is not much of a playmaker. Definitely not worth 3 million a year so far.

Hossa, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler and Cleary are all better imho.

You would not be saying this if Val weren't a Finn.

Is that why Babcock continues to put Osgood in net over Conklin? Because he's the best guy to have on the ice?

Absolutely not.

He plays the players who are falling short as much as possible when he has enough depth to cover for any mistakes. Why? To give that player extra conditioning - extra time to get on the ball. It's what coaches do. You do everything in your power help the players reach their potential. Flip would never tap into his potential sitting on the bench for 95% of the game.. and Babs knows that.

I think it's different with goalies and forwards. You make a forward a healthy scratch for a game or 2 to get him to shape up. In Flip's case, he gets that much ice time because Babs knows he's the 4th best player he could put out there.

[Guest MrSandMan]

Mike Babcock feels that Filppula is going to be one of the best players in the game someday, which I feel is a bit far-fetched

Source? I can't find anything where Babcock said that he feels Filppula will EVER be better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Please provide a source.

Edited February 17, 2009 by MrSandMan

[seeinred 1,488]

Souce? I can't find anything where Babcock said that Filppula will EVER be better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

Where did he say better than Hank and Pavs? He said "one of the best players in the game." That doesn't mean he'd have to be better than them.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Filppula is the 4th best two way forward on the Detroit Red Wings Roster. I've seen enough uneducated hockey fans around here trying to run this guy down because of one single reason. The "stat sheet."So im going to take a few minutes out of my time to try and educate you folks a little bit.

I think we can all agree that Flips has had the least 1st/2nd line ice time out of Huds/Cleary/Franzen/Sammy. Agree? Yup, its true and all of them players are the only forwards above Flip in terms of points besides the big 3 and homer. Note, I do realize Flip gets more even strength ice time. Its for a reason too. Babs trusts him on the ice more than he trusts the guys above that i listed.

Now, I don't actually have any facts to back this statement up but im willing to say that a very large portion of Huds/Cleary/Franzen/Sammys points have came from being on the 1st/2nd line. Its kind of hard not to get points when your on the ice with any portion of the big 3. f*** i could put up some points on the Wings if i was playing with them guys.

Some of you might say, "well, if hes so good why doesn't Babs ever player him on the 2nd line?" Simple. Its not because Babs doesn't think hes good enough to play there. It's because Flip is our 3rd best pivot. Hes the only player we have capable of centering out the 3rd line. Flips is the heart and sole of our third line and he will be the heart of our 2nd line once we loose some players. As of now we got Huds/Cleary/Franzen that can be playing a second line role. These players aren't nearly as important to making our third line a threat as Flips.

Another reason Flips doesn't have as many points as you guys assume a 3 mill year player should have. I don't know if you guys get off the internet and actually watch the Wings game. If you do watch the games you might notice Flip spends alot of time on the ice against other teams top lines. It does make things a little harder for you when constantly on the ice with the worlds premier players. Take that into slight consideration on top of all this.

Now lets talk a little bit about Flips game. He is also our 3rd best defensive forward. If i was to count how many times a game Flips creates turnovers compared to the guys i have been comparing him to, it would be a blowout. You guys needs to watch the games really close and critically. Watch more than just the guy with the puck. Watch like your the coach. His positioning is superior, he forces guys to make bad decisions out there every single shift. The puck doesn't always get turned over to Flip as a result of his great defensive skills but to be turned over to another Wing on the ice. Result, some of you casual viewers may not understand that indeed the reasoning behind why puck got turned over was in fact a direct result of what Flip did.

The sentence in bold above pretty much sums up this entire post. Not only are you wrong in close to everything you are saying here, but you are so far of base it is actually comical.That said, I do have stats to show just how asinine your declaration really is.

Valtteri Filppula:

* 6 Goals and 23 Assists (29 points total). Flip averages about 16:00 of ice time a night. He hasn't scored a goal in the last 12 games, but has increased his assist totals -- but then again who wouldn't with Hossa as a line mate.

Let's with total ice time, and point production. As you see above Flip gets 16 minutes a night, that puts him ahead of the following:

* Mikael Samuelsson (15:18) --> who has 16 goals, 20 assists (36 points) on the year. He also makes quite a bit less then Flip salaray wise.

* Jiri Hudler (13:28) --> who has 19 goals, 28 assists (47 points) and also makes less money they Flip.

* Tomas Holmstrom (15:18) --> has 14 goals, 16 assists (30 points). Homer makes slightly a bit more ($250 K) but due to injury has played fewer games (17 less) then Flip.

Here are the forwards that receive equal or more ice time then Flip, and their totals:

* Johan Franzen (17:51) --> who has 22 goals, 12 assists (34 points). It also should be noted that Franzen, like Homer, has only played 46 games this year (11 less then Flip).

* Pavel Datsyuk (19:15) --> 24 goals, 46 assists (70 points).

* Marian Hossa (18:24) --> 33 goals, 27 assists (60 points).

* Henrik Zetterberg (19:50) --> 20 goals, 29 assists (49 points)

Now, let's move on and look at where Flip sits in overall ranking with the other forwards in regards to point totals, special team play, points per game, shooting percentages, etc:

* Flip currently is averaging .508 points per game. That puts him in 10th place of all Red Wing forwards in the points per game category (results and numbers below):

Dats - 1.25

Hossa - 1.05

Zetterberg - .942

Hudler - .823

Holmstrom - .750

Franzen - .744

Samuelsson - .643

Leino - .625 (has only played 8 games)

Cleary - .612

Fillipula - .508

* Flip is 9th among Red Wings forwards in goals scored, and 11th among all positions (Rafalski and Lids both have more goals). Forwards that are ahead of Flip in this category are the obvious (Hossa, Dats, Zetterberg), as well as Franzen, Hudler, Sammy, Holmstrom and Cleary.

* Flip is 6th among Red Wing forwards and 9th among all position Red Wings in +/- with a plus 11. The forwards that are above him in this category are Dats (+30), Hossa (+18), Homer (+16), Zetterberg (+15), and Franzen (+11).

* Flip is 9th among Red Wings forwards in total points and 12 among all position players (Kronwall, Lidstrom and Rafalski) all have more the Flip.

Now for what I think is one of the more glaring numbers that stick out in regards to Flip. Apologists for Flip will constantly retreat to the "he doesn't shoot enough, and he will get better about it like Dats did in the future." Well this really isn't true - not the fact he doesn't shoot much (Flip is 8th among Red Wing forwards in Total Shots on Goal), but rather his overall shooting %. Take a look at the Red Wings forwards and their shooting % figures:

Leino - .250 (only 8 games played)

Homer - .237

Hudler - .176

McCarty - .167 (only 13 games played)

Dats - .149

Franzen - .147

Hossa - .135

Maltby - .111

Zetterberg - .099

Samuelsson - .095

Cleary - .091

Fillipula - .073

OK, so that's it for right now. I think it's safe to say - that while looking at the multiple categories above, and the individuals numbers that accompany them that Fillipula is probably more like our 7th our 8th best forward.

But do not worry, I will be back in a short bit to put together an informative comparison between Flip and forwards throughout the league - their point production, TOI, and overall rank among their teams forwards.

[ben_usmc 253]

I think I'm the only person that thinks Franzen is overrated at 4million. Granted he is offensively better then Flip, he doesn't play as hard, is always injured, is only a shooter not a passer at all, and is older. I think he should make 3.5 max, because if moved he will be another Lapointe.

[seeinred 1,488]

*snip*

But do not worry, I will be back in a short bit to put together an informative comparison between Flip and forwards throughout the league - their point production, TOI, and overall rank among their teams forwards.

No one said that Val should be kept around because he's going to put up tons of points. He's here because he's VERY defensively responsible and can chip in with a decent amount of points too. It's not all about numbers, people. There are certain things that can't be measured when assessing a player's worth.

[Guest MrSandMan]

Where did he say better than Hank and Pavs? He said "one of the best players in the game." That doesn't mean he'd have to be better than them.

He's implying that Babcock "feels" that Filppula will be "one of the best players in the game". That's a bold statement that Babcock never said (at least I cannot find it). So Fippula will be as good as Ovenchin, Crosby, Thornton, Datsyuk, Zetterberg?

I'll wait for the source. Because I don't think such statement exists.

This person's statement is exactly the fallacy as to why Filppula will never please a large number of LGW members, he'd doomed as "failure" if he doesn't live up Datsyuk. LGW members expect him to be as good as the aforementioned players. News flash: he'll never be "one of the best players in the game" when there are players like Ovenchin, Crosby, Thornton, Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the game today.

He'll be great, but he'll never be in the same level as Datsyuk and Zetterberg

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Ahhh, yes. Valtteri Filppula. The great 29 point scorer. The guy who is a month shy of turning a mere 22...er, 25...years old. The guy who scores at a rate that puts him 7th among all forwards at even strength. The guy who needs more even strength ice time than anyone else not considered a top 10 scorer to remain relevant offensively. The guy whose powerplay time climbs every game, yet his lone powerplay point remains single. The guy whose 6 goals puts him in a class with the great Brett Lebda and Kirk Maltby. The guy whose shooting percentage of 7.3% couldn't quite beat out the Shinpad Assasin himself, Mikael Samuelsson. The guy who is so talented offensively that hes been used in the shootout twice in 3 years, and made neither count. The guy who, until paired with Mr. Do-It-Myself Marian Hossa, was on pace for a breakthrough season of...36 points, despite his 3rd line teammates continuing to produce without a 100 point man on their line.

Yes, oh yes, Valtteri Filppula. How you wow us with your scoring prowess, with your ability to elevate your teammates, and with your skill that is double that of any of our other top 9 forwards, simply because you have double the consonants in both of your names.

Yes, Valterri Filppula. As a member of Babcock's coveted favorites, you join the ranks of other known greats, Mikael Samuelsson and Jason Williams. And for that, I salute you.

[wingslionstigers 12]

The sentence in bold above pretty much sums up this entire post. Not only are you wrong in close to everything you are saying here, but you are so far of base it is actually comical.That said, I do have stats to show just how asinine your declaration really is.

Valtteri Filppula:

* 6 Goals and 23 Assists (29 points total). Flip averages about 16:00 of ice time a night. He hasn't scored a goal in the last 12 games, but has increased his assist totals -- but then again who wouldn't with Hossa as a line mate.

Let's with total ice time, and point production. As you see above Flip gets 16 minutes a night, that puts him ahead of the following:

* Mikael Samuelsson (15:18) --> who has 16 goals, 20 assists (36 points) on the year. He also makes quite a bit less then Flip salaray wise.

* Jiri Hudler (13:28) --> who has 19 goals, 28 assists (47 points) and also makes less money they Flip.

* Tomas Holmstrom (15:18) --> has 14 goals, 16 assists (30 points). Homer makes slightly a bit more ($250 K) but due to injury has played fewer games (17 less) then Flip.

Here are the forwards that receive equal or more ice time then Flip, and their totals:

* Johan Franzen (17:51) --> who has 22 goals, 12 assists (34 points). It also should be noted that Franzen, like Homer, has only played 46 games this year (11 less then Flip).

* Pavel Datsyuk (19:15) --> 24 goals, 46 assists (70 points).

* Marian Hossa (18:24) --> 33 goals, 27 assists (60 points).

* Henrik Zetterberg (19:50) --> 20 goals, 29 assists (49 points)

Now, let's move on and look at where Flip sits in overall ranking with the other forwards in regards to point totals, special team play, points per game, shooting percentages, etc:

* Flip currently is averaging .508 points per game. That puts him in 10th place of all Red Wing forwards in the points per game category (results and numbers below):

Dats - 1.25

Hossa - 1.05

Zetterberg - .942

Hudler - .823

Holmstrom - .750

Franzen - .744

Samuelsson - .643

Leino - .625 (has only played 8 games)

Cleary - .612

Fillipula - .508

* Flip is 9th among Red Wings forwards in goals scored, and 11th among all positions (Rafalski and Lids both have more goals). Forwards that are ahead of Flip in this category are the obvious (Hossa, Dats, Zetterberg), as well as Franzen, Hudler, Sammy, Holmstrom and Cleary.

* Flip is 6th among Red Wing forwards and 9th among all position Red Wings in +/- with a plus 11. The forwards that are above him in this category are Dats (+30), Hossa (+18), Homer (+16), Zetterberg (+15), and Franzen (+11).

* Flip is 9th among Red Wings forwards in total points and 12 among all position players (Kronwall, Lidstrom and Rafalski) all have more the Flip.

Now for what I think is one of the more glaring numbers that stick out in regards to Flip. Apologists for Flip will constantly retreat to the "he doesn't shoot enough, and he will get better about it like Dats did in the future." Well this really isn't true - not the fact he doesn't shoot much (Flip is 8th among Red Wing forwards in Total Shots on Goal), but rather his overall shooting %. Take a look at the Red Wings forwards and their shooting % figures:

Leino - .250 (only 8 games played)

Homer - .237

Hudler - .176

McCarty - .167 (only 13 games played)

Dats - .149

Franzen - .147

Hossa - .135

Maltby - .111

Zetterberg - .099

Samuelsson - .095

Cleary - .091

Fillipula - .073

OK, so that's it for right now. I think it's safe to say - that while looking at the multiple categories above, and the individuals numbers that accompany them that Fillipula is probably more like our 7th our 8th best forward.

But do not worry, I will be back in a short bit to put together an informative comparison between Flip and forwards throughout the league - their point production, TOI, and overall rank among their teams forwards.

Heres a prime example of one of your stat sheet boys. Knows nothing about the game just googles the stats and catches the highlights on sports center. You failed to mention anything you know about these players from actual experience, All you have is these stats.

See the thing is im aware of the stats you just shown me. Also when i said i don't actually have any facts. If you read what i wrote following that you would understand that i was talking about how many points each player has from being on the 1st/2nd line.

I know your not the brightest guy in the world but my entire post was pretty much explaining why Flip doesn't have the numbers that the rest of these players have.

Your entire post looks like you read my topic title and then went on to write your post.

[Guest MrSandMan]

Because simply put, he is lying. Flipulla is by no means our 4th or even 5th best forward currently

He's not lying. You have an opinion and he has an opinion. His opinion is more logical than yours.

Because simply put, he is lying. Flipulla is by no means our 4th or even 5th best forward currently

If we look at every aspect of player-to-player, I would put Frazen as 4th best and Fil as 5th best. But due to Frazen's injury prone, he loses a bit of edge. So imo, it's a toss up who's 4th best player.