Filppula has the most Even Strength points after Z, D, Hossa

[Z and D for the C 712]

the fact of the matter is, he has been demoted a line since last year, and is on pace for slightly less points

You don't think the fact that he has played on the third line has anything to do with it, when last season he played on the second?

Am I the only one who remembers how sweet the Cleary Dats Flip line was in the middle of the year when Z and homer were out?

[Ms_Hockey 0]

I want to see what Flip can do in the playoffs. I'm not ready to just throw in the towel and say "GET RID OF FLIP", but I'd like to see him produce a lot more.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Yeah, cause you know being on pace for almost the exact same of points means he's having EXPLOSION LIKE DEVELOPMENT! I can pick and choose stats too, the fact of the matter is, he has been demoted a line since last year, and is on pace for slightly less points. He SEEMINGLY (while we both know this isn't true, just statistic wise) is getting WORSE. BUD

Also about your other post about being an upper echolon player.... remember last year when he said Sammuelson was among the world's elite? Could it possibly be that he is trying to raise his value by overhyping him... OF COURSE NOT. BUD

Listen BUD, I never said he was having explosion like development. How was I picking and choosing my stats when I pointed out the FACTS? He's got 23 assists, 6 more than last year in 19 less games. Cold hard facts bud.

So what does it mean when hes on pace to score half the goals he did last year?

It means his goal scoring way down but assists way up. Simple.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Aussie_Wing

[Datsyerberger 279]

I'm going to suppose that by the reasoning of some here, since Flip is only 7th in ES points/minute, then he should be the 7th most played forward at ES, regardless of any of his other attributes.

Perhaps he's 3rd in ES time and 4th in ES points because, even though he's only 7th in ES points/minute, he produces more reliably and consistently at ES with larger amounts of ice time than those other players.. a state which furthermore allows those players who produce more with smaller amounts of ice time, particularly during the power play, to play within those sorts of situations. That's not to mention the defensive aspects in which Flip excels over most of those same players.

And maybe he doesn't get a lot of PP time because we have an absolutely offensively loaded top 9 forwards to draw a regular 6 PPers out of, and it's more valuable to save his ice time for ES and the PK because he's one of the most consistent and reliable producers in both of those situations that this team has.

But using a logical analysis shouldn't be allowed here, amiright?

Edited February 17, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Listen BUD, I never said he was having explosion like development. How was I picking and choosing my stats when I pointed out the FACTS? He's got 23 assists, 6 more than last year in 19 less games. Cold hard facts bud.

It means his goal scoring way down but assists way up. Simple.

How were you picking and choosing stats? Hmmm maybe when you conveintalty forgot to mention that despite having more assists, he is actually on pace for FEWER POINTS THAN LAST SEASON. You simply picked one positive, while ignoring the negative. Good god, I know you've probably never even watched Hockey, but have you never heard of simple logic?

[wingslionstigers 12]

lol. Read my post

Edited February 17, 2009 by wingslionstigers

[wingslionstigers 12]

Filppula is the 4th best two way forward on the Detroit Red Wings Roster. I've seen enough uneducated hockey fans around here trying to run this guy down because of one single reason. The "stat sheet."So im going to take a few minutes out of my time to try and educate you folks a little bit.

I think we can all agree that Flips has had the least 1st/2nd line ice time out of Huds/Cleary/Franzen/Sammy. Agree? Yup, its true and all of them players are the only forwards above Flip in terms of points besides the big 3 and homer. Note, I do realize Flip gets more even strength ice time. Its for a reason too. Babs trusts him on the ice more than he trusts the guys above that i listed.

Now, I don't actually have any facts to back this statement up but im willing to say that a very large portion of Huds/Cleary/Franzen/Sammys points have came from being on the 1st/2nd line. Its kind of hard not to get points when your on the ice with any portion of the big 3. f*** i could put up some points on the Wings if i was playing with them guys.

Some of you might say, "well, if hes so good why doesn't Babs ever player him on the 2nd line?" Simple. Its not because Babs doesn't think hes good enough to play there. It's because Flip is our 3rd best pivot. Hes the only player we have capable of centering out the 3rd line. Flips is the heart and sole of our third line and he will be the heart of our 2nd line once we loose some players. As of now we got Huds/Cleary/Franzen that can be playing a second line role. These players aren't nearly as important to making our third line a threat as Flips.

Another reason Flips doesn't have as many points as you guys assume a 3 mill year player should have. I don't know if you guys get off the internet and actually watch the Wings game. If you do watch the games you might notice Flip spends alot of time on the ice against other teams top lines. It does make things a little harder for you when constantly on the ice with the worlds premier players. Take that into slight consideration on top of all this.

Now lets talk a little bit about Flips game. He is also our 3rd best defensive forward. If i was to count how many times a game Flips creates turnovers compared to the guys i have been comparing him to, it would be a blowout. You guys needs to watch the games really close and critically. Watch more than just the guy with the puck. Watch like your the coach. His positioning is superior, he forces guys to make bad decisions out there every single shift. The puck doesn't always get turned over to Flip as a result of his great defensive skills but to be turned over to another Wing on the ice. Result, some of you casual viewers may not understand that indeed the reasoning behind why puck got turned over was in fact a direct result of what Flip did.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

he is actually on pace for FEWER POINTS THAN LAST SEASON.

He is not. Presently he's on pace for 41 points.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Well, 4th best defensive forward, I put Z, Dats, and Hossa ahead of him. Not like being behind 3 Selke nominees is a bad thing.

All in all, I don't think it's unrealistic to call him our 4th best forward, and if possible, I'm more and more wanting to see

Hudler - Flip - Hossa

kept over

Franzen - Flip - Hudler + Sammy

I really think the Wings org sees something special in his future.

You know, I think I'd be willing to see both Hudler and Franzen let go to keep Hossa and Flip. 2nd line scorers are replaceable. Leino anyone? 2nd line 2 way centers and star wingers? Not so much.

ZDH

Leino - Flip - Hossa

Cleary - Helm - Sammy

Abkadoodle - Draper - Kopecky

Maltby

Raffi - Lids

Kronwall - Stuart

Lilja - Ericsson

Meech/Cheli/Lebda (pick 2)

is a better "worst case scenario" than most rosters in the NHL!

Edited February 17, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Before you label me a Fil hater, let me just say where I stand on this arguement. Val is going to be agood player, easily a 45-65 point second line defensive center akin to Michael Handzus or Brendan Morrison, but the truth of the matter is, if Val's salary keeps us from resigning one of Hudler/Franzen, then you'd have to be an idiot to want to keep him. Val is good, no doubt, but he will never be as talented as Hudler or Franzen, and on a team full of selke finalists, his defense presence is not as needed as another team. Val very well may florusih on another team, but he WILL NEVER BE A FIRST LINER HERE.

Now let me "educate" you with all the things wrong and biased in your post. It is littered with miscontrued facts, and purposfully chosen statics.

1)Flipulla is our 4th best two way threat: Not only does this move away from your bold topic title, but it is a blatent lie. Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, are all defensivly better and far more offensivly talented. Franzen is almost on par with Flip defensivly, but his offense game BLOWS val's outta the water, giving him a clear edge. FAIL

2)Flipulla actually has played more ES time then Hudler, Cleary, and Franzen (per game in Franzen's case). He is below all of those in points per TOI. Simply put, while hes given more ES time, he makes less use of it than all the others.

3) Don't insult the average poster's intelligence of making long term deals. I understand we paid for his upside, not what he currently is, but to think that Hudler or Franzen don't have more P, is laughable.

4) Flipulla is NOT our third best defense forward. Hossa Zetterberg Datsyuk, Draper, and arguably Cleary are all ahead of him in defensive ability, with Franzen, Sammy, and now even Hudler not far behind.

[russianswede919293 95]

Filppula might not be the 4th best forward but he certainly is worth the 3 million dollars the wings spend on him. He is tremendous on the back check, and I have been saying all season that he has put up numbers in the points category that are just as good as last season, without playing on the powerplay, which he did last season.

On top of that Filppula has been building what I think is great chemistry with Hossa with these injuries.

I see next years lines as this:

ZDH

Franz-Filp-Hossa

Cleary-Helm-Hudler

Leino-Draper-Maltby

[Frozen-Man 144]

Before you label me a Fil hater, let me just say where I stand on this arguement. Val is going to be agood player, easily a 45-65 point second line defensive center akin to Michael Handzus or Brendan Morrison, but the truth of the matter is, if Val's salary keeps us from resigning one of Hudler/Franzen, then you'd have to be an idiot to want to keep him. Val is good, no doubt, but he will never be as talented as Hudler or Franzen, and on a team full of selke finalists, his defense presence is not as needed as another team. Val very well may florusih on another team, but he WILL NEVER BE A FIRST LINER HERE.

Now let me "educate" you with all the things wrong and biased in your post. It is littered with miscontrued facts, and purposfully chosen statics.

1)Flipulla is our 4th best two way threat: Not only does this move away from your bold topic title, but it is a blatent lie. Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, are all defensivly better and far more offensivly talented. Franzen is almost on par with Flip defensivly, but his offense game BLOWS val's outta the water, giving him a clear edge. FAIL

2)Flipulla actually has played more ES time then Hudler, Cleary, and Franzen (per game in Franzen's case). He is below all of those in points per TOI. Simply put, while hes given more ES time, he makes less use of it than all the others.

3) Don't insult the average poster's intelligence of making long term deals. I understand we paid for his upside, not what he currently is, but to think that Hudler or Franzen don't have more P, is laughable.

4) Flipulla is NOT our third best defense forward. Hossa Zetterberg Datsyuk, Draper, and arguably Cleary are all ahead of him in defensive ability, with Franzen, Sammy, and now even Hudler not far behind.

That's a pretty big gun to call someone a liar.

You make good points and add to the discussion but why do it with name calling and bitterness. It really detracts from your argument.

[Reds4Life 51]

lol yeah

That's why Babcock does not play him on PP. What a stupid coach. Only if he read LGW.

Filppula is bad offensively, he does not shoot and is not much of a playmaker. Definitely not worth 3 million a year so far.

Hossa, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler and Cleary are all better imho.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Yzersyukstromberg 0]

Flip is lazy and he sucks. just kidding...but he's not the 4th best forward on the team either.

I'd put the following in front of him:

1) Datsyuk

2) Zetterberg

3) Hossa

4) Franzen

5) Hudler

Now, when it comes to Hudler, he's not great defensively, but he's SO much better offensively than Flip is that I have to put him in front. On top of these, there are easily a couple of other guys who could be rated above, simply because they're having a better season this year, but I won't count them.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

That's a pretty big gun to call someone a liar.

You make good points and add to the discussion but why do it with name calling and bitterness. It really detracts from your argument.

Because simply put, he is lying. Flipulla is by no means our 4th or even 5th best forward currently

[wingslionstigers 12]

1)Flipulla is our 4th best two way threat: Not only does this move away from your bold topic title, but it is a blatent lie. Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, are all defensivly better and far more offensivly talented. Franzen is almost on par with Flip defensivly, but his offense game BLOWS val's outta the water, giving him a clear edge. FAIL

Dude for one you are so lost right now you have me laughing. How you can manage to try to sound so intelligent and be so far lost ion everything i said is quite funny.

How does stating facts about Flips defensive side move away from my "bold topic title?" To be the 4th best forward you need to have a good offensive game and defensive game, theirs multiple pieces to hockey. I supported his offensive ability telling you why he doesn't have as many points as you guys claim he should, then i supported his defensive play. Combined equals a great forward. Got it?

For two. When i say 4th best forward, i mean behind Dats, Zet, and Hossa. You just listed them guys like i was saying Flip is better than them. Who do you think i said was in front of Flip when i said 4th best in my "bold topic title?" We could argue all day about Franzen but thats your opinion.

2)Flipulla actually has played more ES time then Hudler, Cleary, and Franzen (per game in Franzen's case). He is below all of those in points per TOI. Simply put, while hes given more ES time, he makes less use of it than all the others.

I noted very clearly in my post that i know Flip has more ES time than all of those guys. If you weren't half brain dead you would have noticed that. Now go back to that section and read why i said he has more ES time and what hes up against during that extra ES time. Then you'll understand my point. Less use of it? Haha. Dude read my post.

3) Don't insult the average poster's intelligence of making long term deals. I understand we paid for his upside, not what he currently is, but to think that Hudler or Franzen don't have more P, is laughable.

Well its clear you didn't acknowledge any of my writing that supports Flip. To reply to what you just wrote i would be repeating what i already said. If you want to know what i think about this, then try reading my orig post.

4) Flipulla is NOT our third best defense forward. Hossa Zetterberg Datsyuk, Draper, and arguably Cleary are all ahead of him in defensive ability, with Franzen, Sammy, and now even Hudler not far behind.

Again, im not going to write something i already said that you failed to read.

[Datsyerberger 279]

*snip*

Franzen and Hudler are excellent players, but saying they're better than Flip (or rather, that Flip will never be as good as them) while comparing Flip to Handzus pretty much makes Huddles and Franzen legitimate first liners, which they're probably not. We're seeing the best Franzen has to offer in his career, in all likelihood, and Hudler is always going to be in a battle with his own size.

The fact is, we're looking at 3 forwards who could all be borderline 1st liners on some teams in the league.

Franzen is the largest and most explosive of the 3, though his offense is somewhat streaky (his defensive play isn't, though).

Hudler is the most outright talented, I think, and has killer vision.. but he's small, and that will always be a knock on him, even if he plays past it.

Flip is the smoothest and most defensively skilled of the 3, and in my opinion has the ability to become the most overall gifted of the 3... and that's the sort of players the Wings org likes. His $3m/yr is already looking like a bargain, especially if you compare it to players of similar caliber who aren't on their entry level contracts (Jordan Staal, who gets similar minutes and a similar role, immediately comes to mind).

[Blueliner 69]

Before you label me a Fil hater, let me just say where I stand on this arguement. Val is going to be agood player, easily a 45-65 point second line defensive center akin to Michael Handzus or Brendan Morrison, but the truth of the matter is, if Val's salary keeps us from resigning one of Hudler/Franzen, then you'd have to be an idiot to want to keep him. Val is good, no doubt, but he will never be as talented as Hudler or Franzen, and on a team full of selke finalists, his defense presence is not as needed as another team. Val very well may florusih on another team, but he WILL NEVER BE A FIRST LINER HERE.

Now let me "educate" you with all the things wrong and biased in your post. It is littered with miscontrued facts, and purposfully chosen statics.

1)Flipulla is our 4th best two way threat: Not only does this move away from your bold topic title, but it is a blatent lie. Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, are all defensivly better and far more offensivly talented. Franzen is almost on par with Flip defensivly, but his offense game BLOWS val's outta the water, giving him a clear edge. FAIL

4) Flipulla is NOT our third best defense forward. Hossa Zetterberg Datsyuk, Draper, and arguably Cleary are all ahead of him in defensive ability, with Franzen, Sammy, and now even Hudler not far behind.

Franzen is not very good defensively. He doesn't back-check and he can't clear the zone late in games.

Other than his ability to win faceoffs, Draper's defensive game has made a pretty big tumble. Just look at his +/-.

And to say Cleary is a better defender than Filppula is a joke. If he was better defensively why does Filppula play a hell of a lot more on the PK than he does.

Filppula is a pretty damn good defender. He's quick and it looks like he's learning from Pavel on how to steal the puck by lifting a guy's stick. I hope he's here for years to come.

[wingslionstigers 12]

lol yeah

That's why Babcock does not play him on PP. What a stupid coach. Only if he read LGW.

Filppula is bad offensively, he does not shoot and is not much of a playmaker. Definitely not worth 3 million a year so far.

Hossa, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler and Cleary are all better imho.

Why? Because we have guys that are better on the power play. Notice i said Flip is our best 2 way forward in my post.

Never once did i say Flip is the 4th best offensive talent. Hes got alot better offensive talent than some you like to believe. The Thing is he is a better two way complete player. With his offensive and defensive ability's combined he is our 4th best player.

Flip would easily have 45 points or so right now if he has been on our 2nd line all season long like the guys im comparing him against.

Flips offensive ability is underestimated for one reason. Simply because of his point total. I guess i was kidding myself when i thought i could make some of you noobs understand something about hockey besides. What is shown on the score sheet.

Hudlers defence?

[Datsyerberger 279]

The majority of responses in this thread, so far, are a good measuring stick for how underrated Flip is on these boards.

Flip is clearly our 6th/7th best forward, which is obviously why he's 3rd in ES time for forwards. Clearly Babcock and crew thinks he sucks so much that he should play him more minutes in the most important play time in hockey than all those other obviously better players.

Did it ever occur to some of you that he doesn't get as much PP time because there are 9 PP-worthy forwards on this team? And that they're chosen ahead of him not because of overall offensive talent, but because he's the better option than most of them on the PK and at ES, and that his endurance is best saved for those crucial minutes? Maybe, even though he doesn't have higher points/min at ES than some of those players, he's played more at ES because his production is more CONSISTENT at that amount of ice time?

Or Babcock, the most successful current coach in the NHL, is just a ******* idiot.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Franzen is not very good defensively. He doesn't back-check and he can't clear the zone late in games.

Other than his ability to win faceoffs, Draper's defensive game has made a pretty big tumble. Just look at his +/-.

And to say Cleary is a better defender than Filppula is a joke. If he was better defensively why does Filppula play a hell of a lot more on the PK than he does.

Filppula is a pretty damn good defender. He's quick and it looks like he's learning from Pavel on how to steal the puck by lifting a guy's stick. I hope he's here for years to come.

Good post.

Let me add Hudlers defensive play to that. Horrible enough said.

Now Cleary? Hes decent both ways. Hes not offensively nor defensively as talented as Flip. Hes a hard working grinder thats all.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Dude for one you are so lost right now you have me laughing. How you can manage to try to sound so intelligent and be so far lost ion everything i said is quite funny.

How does stating facts about Flips defensive side move away from my "bold topic title?" To be the 4th best forward you need to have a good offensive game and defensive game, theirs multiple pieces to hockey. I supported his offensive ability telling you why he doesn't have as many points as you guys claim he should, then i supported his defensive play. Combined equals a great forward. Got it?

Possibly because you said HE IS THE 4th BEST FORWARD ON THE TEAM, Not 4th best two- way threat (which he isn't)

For two. When i say 4th best forward, i mean behind Dats, Zet, and Hossa. You just listed them guys like i was saying Flip is better than them. Who do you think i said was in front of Flip when i said 4th best in my "bold topic title?" We could argue all day about Franzen but thats your opinion.

It's not opinion. It's simple common knoweldge. When Holland si willing to pay Flipulla over 4 million then we can talk, but until then, I trust his evaluation of talent moreso than yours.

I noted very clearly in my post that i know Flip has more ES time than all of those guys. If you weren't half brain dead you would have noticed that. Now go back to that section and read why i said he has more ES time and what hes up against during that extra ES time. Then you'll understand my point. Less use of it? Haha. Dude read my post.

Considering on ES he plays with typically better or the same linemates as Hudler, he is making less use of his time in terms of offensive production. He is not ALWAYS AGAISNT THE OTHER TEAM's TOP LINE, in fact it normally is Datsyuk's line, Babcock has always said he loves going power line to power line, as he ours is the best 2- way line in the leauge. You just make up facts to support your bulls*** and biased claims.

Well its clear you didn't acknowledge any of my writing that supports Flip. To reply to what you just wrote i would be repeating what i already said. If you want to know what i think about this, then try reading my orig post.

I'll admit, I didnt read your whole post, just skimmed it and missed the ES part, but for you too even think what your saying is absoloutly laughable. Your first sentence destroys all your opinions crediblity for the matter, and for the record, don't flatter yourself in thinking I'd actually try to make myself sound smarter than I am to prove your point. It's uneeded with people like you

Again, im not going to write something i already said that you failed to read.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Or Babcock, the most successful current coach in the NHL, is just a ******* idiot.

Babcock must just be an idiot. I mean its not like hes an NHL coach or anything. LGW posters seem to know alot more than Babs.

See the funny thing here is. All you guys run Flips down and argue my post. I have Babcock on my side. You guys have score sheets influencing your minds with no logical explanations or concepts behind any of your reasoning.

Babcock gives Flips more ice time for a reason. WHY??? Hes the best guy to have on the ice. That right there makes him our 4th best forward.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Franzen and Hudler are excellent players, but saying they're better than Flip (or rather, that Flip will never be as good as them) while comparing Flip to Handzus pretty much makes Huddles and Franzen legitimate first liners, which they're probably not. We're seeing the best Franzen has to offer in his career, in all likelihood, and Hudler is always going to be in a battle with his own size.

The fact is, we're looking at 3 forwards who could all be borderline 1st liners on some teams in the league.

Franzen is the largest and most explosive of the 3, though his offense is somewhat streaky (his defensive play isn't, though).

Hudler is the most outright talented, I think, and has killer vision.. but he's small, and that will always be a knock on him, even if he plays past it.

Flip is the smoothest and most defensively skilled of the 3, and in my opinion has the ability to become the most overall gifted of the 3... and that's the sort of players the Wings org likes. His $3m/yr is already looking like a bargain, especially if you compare it to players of similar caliber who aren't on their entry level contracts (Jordan Staal, who gets similar minutes and a similar role, immediately comes to mind).

While I disagree with your assumption that Val will be the best of the three YOU ALONE have made valid points. I respectfully disagree with your opinion =)

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Babcock must just be an idiot. I mean its not like hes an NHL coach or anything. LGW posters seem to know alot more than Babs.

See the funny thing here is. All you guys run Flips down and argue my post. I have Babcock on my side. You guys have score sheets influencing your minds with no logical explanations or concepts behind any of your reasoning.

Babcock gives Flips more ice time for a reason. WHY??? Hes the best guy to have on the ice. That right there makes him our 4th best forward.

Babcock does not give him the 4th most time... only the 4th most even strength time. When you have the ability to roll 4 lines you do it to wear it out. If anything this detracts your arguement, as when Z and D are toghter Flipulla should center the second line... which in general he does not.