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Thoughts on Downey

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You mean if he wasn't a mediocre fighter he would have been destroyed by Cam Janssen. He fought Cam Janssen, the fight went on for a while but was in no way even close to being the victor, Janssen got the better of him from what I saw.... that was the fight of the year on a team with no good fighters. Dig up some old Probert and Kocur fights to see what real fighters look like. I can't think of one fight that I have seen Downey in that I could say he clearly won, or kicked the opponents ass. He's ******* Kin Kong in comparison to anyone on this team and that is more of an insult to him then anything else... he's the only fighter we have and he is not good at it.

:blink:

I suppose Downey's fight with Boulerice in Dallas was a draw? Last year Downey didn't lose a fight the entire season. I don't know what information you're going on, but you're way off base with your assessment of the guy.

And I've seen all the Probert and Kocur fights, so I couldn't help smirk when you suggested I go watch them. If those are the only types of guys you consider to be good fighters, then there aren't any good fighters in the league right now.

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:blink:

I suppose Downey's fight with Boulerice in Dallas was a draw? Last year Downey didn't lose a fight the entire season. I don't know what information you're going on, but you're way off base with your assessment of the guy.

And I've seen all the Probert and Kocur fights, so I couldn't help smirk when you suggested I go watch them. If those are the only types of guys you consider to be good fighters, then there aren't any good fighters in the league right now.

How about Laraque, Brashear, Boogaard, Lucic... there are enough big time fighters left in the league and many many that are way better then Downey. Anyway I don't see a need for a plain old meathead in the game today. We need players like Lucic, Getzlaf and Perrey that can and will hit and fight when needed but that can also contribute to the over all game. Downey doesn't have anything else to offer except that he will drop the gloves. He doesn't intimidate anyone nor does his presence deter anyone from taking their shots at our players that matter... in order for him to even have a chance to do that he would have to be playing with the players that matter most and that will never happen because he is a terrible hockey player.

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:blink:

I suppose Downey's fight with Boulerice in Dallas was a draw? Last year Downey didn't lose a fight the entire season. I don't know what information you're going on, but you're way off base with your assessment of the guy.

And I've seen all the Probert and Kocur fights, so I couldn't help smirk when you suggested I go watch them. If those are the only types of guys you consider to be good fighters, then there aren't any good fighters in the league right now.

Wait, you are also the one that promotes Lilja as our "enforcer".... Lilja the one that started a fight with Weber and got his ass knocked out by enforcing with the technique Bruce Lee invented called "the art of fighting without fighting." See how that worked out for him. And since you claim to have seen all of Probert and Kocur's fight and you still consider Lilja and Downey as enforcers then I'm not sure how I can take anything you say seriously with regard to this subject.

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How about Laraque, Brashear, Boogaard, Lucic... there are enough big time fighters left in the league and many many that are way better then Downey. Anyway I don't see a need for a plain old meathead in the game today. We need players like Lucic, Getzlaf and Perrey that can and will hit and fight when needed but that can also contribute to the over all game. Downey doesn't have anything else to offer except that he will drop the gloves. He doesn't intimidate anyone nor does his presence deter anyone from taking their shots at our players that matter... in order for him to even have a chance to do that he would have to be playing with the players that matter most and that will never happen because he is a terrible hockey player.

:lol:

You just included Lucic with Boogaard, Brashear and Laraque. That shows what you know. Lucic is considered a spotpicker amongst fight circles in the league, and the only time he fought a real enforcer was in Erskine, who destroyed Lucic. The guy is overrated as a fighter. And why include Getzlaf and Perry? Those guys aren't even fighters? How would we even obtain such players since we already have too much talent locked up?

Once again, I don't know what you have against Downey, but he showed last year that he still has what it takes to be an enforcer in this league fight wise. He hasn't really had a chance this season to show anything.

An overall confusing post on your part.

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Yeah... don't get the guy trying to bash Downey on the one thing he is good at...

There is a reason he is still in the league and gets called up, and it's not for his amazing dangles.

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Wow, how anyone see's that as Lilja beating the s*** out of Phaneuf just shows how blind homers can be.

:lol:

I love that fight. Did you see the fear of God in Phaneuf's eyes right before he fell on the ice over fear of being decimated. Classic Lilja, right there.

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:lol:

You just included Lucic with Boogaard, Brashear and Laraque. That shows what you know. Lucic is considered a spotpicker amongst fight circles in the league, and the only time he fought a real enforcer was in Erskine, who destroyed Lucic. The guy is overrated as a fighter. And why include Getzlaf and Perry? Those guys aren't even fighters? How would we even obtain such players since we already have too much talent locked up?

Once again, I don't know what you have against Downey, but he showed last year that he still has what it takes to be an enforcer in this league fight wise. He hasn't really had a chance this season to show anything.

An overall confusing post on your part.

OK.... then back to the subject Downey. I just don't think Downey brings anything to our team except a willingness to do what the rest of the team won't do. He is a meathead like Laraque, Brashear and Boogaard, but these 3 are good fighters. Anyway, there is no room in this game for meatheads like them and that is why a guy like Downey will never get more than a few games per year if he is lucky. He hasn't had a chance to show anything because he has nothing to show. He doesn't even bring much to that table in GR, he's not going to bring much of anything to this team and he will never have a regular role here.

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OK.... then back to the subject Downey. I just don't think Downey brings anything to our team except a willingness to do what the rest of the team won't do. He is a meathead like Laraque, Brashear and Boogaard, but these 3 are good fighters. Anyway, there is no room in this game for meatheads like them and that is why a guy like Downey will never get more than a few games per year if he is lucky. He hasn't had a chance to show anything because he has nothing to show. He doesn't even bring much to that table in GR, he's not going to bring much of anything to this team and he will never have a regular role here.

But how can you say that, knowing that there are many players like them all around the NHL. Downey is one of many enforcers who can't do anything but fight.

BTW, Brashear is a good player for an enforcer, as is Laraque, so I wouldn't call either of them meatheads who can't play hockey. But there are plenty of others who fit that description, who play regularly in the NHL. Downey wouldn't be any different than most enforcers in that regard. You alluded to Kocur earlier, and guess what, Kocur couldn't do anything but fight. It's always been that way with enforcers, with very few exceptions.

If you were a fan of fighting and enforcers, you wouldn't be saying these things about Downey or how he doesn't belong on the roster.

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But how can you say that, knowing that there are many players like them all around the NHL. Downey is one of many enforcers who can't do anything but fight.

BTW, Brashear is a good player for an enforcer, as is Laraque, so I wouldn't call either of them meatheads who can't play hockey. But there are plenty of others who fit that description, who play regularly in the NHL. Downey wouldn't be any different than most enforcers in that regard. You alluded to Kocur earlier, and guess what, Kocur couldn't do anything but fight. It's always been that way with enforcers, with very few exceptions.

If you were a fan of fighting and enforcers, you wouldn't be saying these things about Downey or how he doesn't belong on the roster.

Thats not the case at all. But the game has change alot from the hey days of Probert and Kocur and having a player like that on our team would not enhance it in anyway. My feelings on physical play are the same but I lean more towards Lucic, Getzlaf, Perrey, Weber.... who can and will hit, fight, score, and provide everything in a game rather then one thing in a game. I was a huge fan of Probert and Kocur and what they did for the team but it was such a different game and even they wouldn't make it very far in todays game.

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Thats not the case at all. But the game has change alot from the hey days of Probert and Kocur and having a player like that on our team would not enhance it in anyway. My feelings on physical play are the same but I lean more towards Lucic, Getzlaf, Perrey, Weber.... who can and will hit, fight, score, and provide everything in a game rather then one thing in a game. I was a huge fan of Probert and Kocur and what they did for the team but it was such a different game and even they wouldn't make it very far in todays game.

I don't know about Kocur, but Probert would do just fine in today's game. He wasn't just some angry goon with no skill. The guy could put up points.

Anyway, I guess you and I disagree, but I don't see how you can deny that there are enforcers out there in the NHL who don't do much else besides fight. I see plenty of them all the time. I just don't understand why we can't have a guy like that too. We can spare a roster spot for a goon better than less skilled teams can.

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LOL! Biggest Homer EVER!

I say it was a clear win. Phaneuf was scared and Lilja landed on top of him. That's enough for me.

Phaneuf was probably wondering during the squareoff whether Elisha Cuthbert would ever have anything to do with him again, if Lilja was to decimate him.

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I don't know about Kocur, but Probert would do just fine in today's game. He wasn't just some angry goon with no skill. The guy could put up points.

Anyway, I guess you and I disagree, but I don't see how you can deny that there are enforcers out there in the NHL who don't do much else besides fight. I see plenty of them all the time. I just don't understand why we can't have a guy like that too. We can spare a roster spot for a goon better than less skilled teams can.

No, I do agree that there are enforcers out there that are employed just for their fighting but I don't think they are adding much to their respective teams. I'm not for a goon on our 4th line as I think a productive 4th line helps the over-all team and would rather a physical player that will still chip in occassionally with point as wells as fights. Hey, maybe Kopecky could become that but he has a very long way to go and should register for a Gold's gym membership, plus enroll in Probert's school for on ice-fisticuff's in the off-season.... don't hold your breath though.

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I don't know about Kocur, but Probert would do just fine in today's game. He wasn't just some angry goon with no skill. The guy could put up points.

Anyway, I guess you and I disagree, but I don't see how you can deny that there are enforcers out there in the NHL who don't do much else besides fight. I see plenty of them all the time. I just don't understand why we can't have a guy like that too. We can spare a roster spot for a goon better than less skilled teams can.

I'm kind of torn here, I understand what you are saying and part of me agrees that we can spare the roster spot more than less skilled teams. We have more talent in the rest of our players so that spot is hurt as bad being lost to a guy who doesn't do much else but fight. And as a guy who would like to see a hockey fight every game (or more like every period which is why I like going to minor league games so much :yowza::blush: ) it would be great to have someone you send out knowing each time there is a great likelihood of a fight. However, then I also think that maybe having the roster spot tied up with with a goon would hurt us more than the less skilled teams. Not all but a lot of those less skilled teams have no illusions of winning the Cup. They know realistically they are not going to win the whole thing - the Wings do not have that luxury lately, every year it is considered a failure by most if we don't win the Cup or at least go to the finals. This means we HAVE to win games more than most teams and really want to be first overall. If having that spot taken by a guy who doesn't "do much else besides fight" costs the Wings a couple of games it might mean the difference between home ice for a couple of rounds which might be the difference between advancing and not. I mean teams like the Blues, the Preds, and the Blue Jackets just to name a few from our division don't have the same expectations and goals as the Wings and therefore don't have to be as good.

I do get what you are saying and don't disagree but think that the reason I stated above is why the Wings don't have a roster spot for a guy who doesn't do much but fight.

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I'm kind of torn here, I understand what you are saying and part of me agrees that we can spare the roster spot more than less skilled teams. We have more talent in the rest of our players so that spot is hurt as bad being lost to a guy who doesn't do much else but fight. And as a guy who would like to see a hockey fight every game (or more like every period which is why I like going to minor league games so much :yowza::blush: ) it would be great to have someone you send out knowing each time there is a great likelihood of a fight. However, then I also think that maybe having the roster spot tied up with with a goon would hurt us more than the less skilled teams. Not all but a lot of those less skilled teams have no illusions of winning the Cup. They know realistically they are not going to win the whole thing - the Wings do not have that luxury lately, every year it is considered a failure by most if we don't win the Cup or at least go to the finals. This means we HAVE to win games more than most teams and really want to be first overall. If having that spot taken by a guy who doesn't "do much else besides fight" costs the Wings a couple of games it might mean the difference between home ice for a couple of rounds which might be the difference between advancing and not. I mean teams like the Blues, the Preds, and the Blue Jackets just to name a few from our division don't have the same expectations and goals as the Wings and therefore don't have to be as good.

I do get what you are saying and don't disagree but think that the reason I stated above is why the Wings don't have a roster spot for a guy who doesn't do much but fight.

Why do you assume having Downey on the roster will cost us games? Last year Downey played 56 games and we finished with 115 points, the President's Trophy, and the Stanley Cup. I can't imagine the Wings' management looks at that, shakes their heads, and say "nope, not doing that again".

Edited by lets go pavel

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Why do you assume having Downey on the roster will cost us games? Last year Downey played 56 games and we finished with 115 points, the President's Trophy, and the Stanley Cup. I can't imagine the Wings' management looks at that, shakes their heads, and say "nope, not doing that again".

I didn't say Downey cost us games, I said I can see the argument of saying that because of expectations the Wings can't afford to have a constant roster spot for a guy who doesn't "do much else besides fight." It was a comment to GMR as to why maybe other less skilled teams can spare a roster spot more than the Wings could. My comment was not that Downey cost the Wings games, maybe he didn't or maybe he did and we would have gotten more points (which didn't matter last year when we won by 11 points but might this year when the standings are closer and 1 or 2 points might make a huge difference) who knows - my point was merely if that spot is taken all year long by a guy (any guy) who doesn't "do much else besides fight" that it might cost us a few games.

I can't imagine the Wings' management looks at that, shakes their heads, and say "nope, not doing that again".

Hate to tell you but they kind of did say not doing that again, at least they decided not to do it this year. For better or for worse, after playing 56 games last year he has only played 4 games for the Wings this year, just got sent down to GR, and there are only 16 games left. Even if they bring him right back up after tonight and play him from here on out (very unlikely) he would still only play 1/3 of the games he played last year (and I doubt he even plays 10 games total for the Wings this year). In reality for whatever reason the Wings did say "we are not going to play Downey 56 games (or anywhere near that) this year."

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I didn't say Downey cost us games, I said I can see the argument of saying that because of expectations the Wings can't afford to have a constant roster spot for a guy who doesn't "do much else besides fight." It was a comment to GMR as to why maybe other less skilled teams can spare a roster spot more than the Wings could. My comment was not that Downey cost the Wings games, maybe he didn't or maybe he did and we would have gotten more points (which didn't matter last year when we won by 11 points but might this year when the standings are closer and 1 or 2 points might make a huge difference) who knows - my point was merely if that spot is taken all year long by a guy (any guy) who doesn't "do much else besides fight" that it might cost us a few games.

I see what you mean, but I'm still not sure I'm buying it. If he doesn't cost us games, then obviously there's no harm in giving him a roster spot. If he does cost us games, I think you could still argue similarly to GMR that the Wings are in a better position than the lesser skilled teams to give him the spot. Sure, the expectations are higher, but a point or two means significantly less to us, even as we're trying to win the division, than it does to the myriad of teams trying to scratch their way into the bottom half of the playoffs.

Hate to tell you but they kind of did say not doing that again, at least they decided not to do it this year. For better or for worse, after playing 56 games last year he has only played 4 games for the Wings this year, just got sent down to GR, and there are only 16 games left. Even if they bring him right back up after tonight and play him from here on out (very unlikely) he would still only play 1/3 of the games he played last year (and I doubt he even plays 10 games total for the Wings this year). In reality for whatever reason the Wings did say "we are not going to play Downey 56 games (or anywhere near that) this year."

I disagree. I think his lack of games this year has more to do with the players/contracts we had already committed playing time to, combined with the glut of forwards we already didn't have playing time for. If they had actually made a decision not to play him, why would they bring him up for the last couple games? Why even give him a contract at all?

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I see what you mean, but I'm still not sure I'm buying it. If he doesn't cost us games, then obviously there's no harm in giving him a roster spot. If he does cost us games, I think you could still argue similarly to GMR that the Wings are in a better position than the lesser skilled teams to give him the spot. Sure, the expectations are higher, but a point or two means significantly less to us, even as we're trying to win the division, than it does to the myriad of teams trying to scratch their way into the bottom half of the playoffs.

I see what you're saying and in my original post I said that I can see both sides of it. I can see the Wings management saying that it is just not worth giving the roster spot to a guy that only fights but I can also see them saying we have so much power elsewhere if he doesn't hurt us too bad it's worth it for retribution (keep the flies away) and because most of the fans love it. :yowza:

I disagree. I think his lack of games this year has more to do with the players/contracts we had already committed playing time to, combined with the glut of forwards we already didn't have playing time for. If they had actually made a decision not to play him, why would they bring him up for the last couple games? Why even give him a contract at all?

That is not what I meant what I meant was that they decided not to give him a roster spot. The decided to make him a GR guy and the only reason he even cracked the lineup is because of LTIR. I do agree that it has "to do with the players/contracts we had already committed playing time to, combined with the glut of forwards we already didn't have playing time for." But that's my point they didn't want to give a roster spot to him this year because they had other forwards that they thought offered more than just fighting, because if they gave the spot based upon fighting alone it would definitely be Downey's spot.

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I didn't say Downey cost us games, I said I can see the argument of saying that because of expectations the Wings can't afford to have a constant roster spot for a guy who doesn't "do much else besides fight." It was a comment to GMR as to why maybe other less skilled teams can spare a roster spot more than the Wings could. My comment was not that Downey cost the Wings games, maybe he didn't or maybe he did and we would have gotten more points (which didn't matter last year when we won by 11 points but might this year when the standings are closer and 1 or 2 points might make a huge difference) who knows - my point was merely if that spot is taken all year long by a guy (any guy) who doesn't "do much else besides fight" that it might cost us a few games.

You seem to be forgetting that the 4th line has stunk this season. You can blame those guys that we don't have more points, although a lot of it is also the defense and goaltending's fault.

The 4th line can't really cost a team points, unless that 4th line has done a piss poor job all season of showing up physically, thus being less of a physical motivator for the rest of the team to follow. And guess what, that's pretty much what has happened this season. I think we'd be better off if Downey had been on the roster all season. Then maybe we'd see a little more grit and work ethic out of the other grinders. It just hasn't been there, though.

And personally, I don't think having the President's trophy is going to make or break us. Yeah, it'd be nice to finish first so that we can have home ice against San Jose, but that's too far off to speculate. Unless the guy sitting for Downey would be a Robitaille or a Larionov, like we had in 02, there's nothing wrong with keeping a guy like him on the 4th line.

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That is not what I meant what I meant was that they decided not to give him a roster spot. The decided to make him a GR guy and the only reason he even cracked the lineup is because of LTIR. I do agree that it has "to do with the players/contracts we had already committed playing time to, combined with the glut of forwards we already didn't have playing time for." But that's my point they didn't want to give a roster spot to him this year because they had other forwards that they thought offered more than just fighting, because if they gave the spot based upon fighting alone it would definitely be Downey's spot.

Maybe ... but I guess my point was that there was really noone else who could have gone down because of contracts, not so much because of what they bring to the table. Maltby and Draper aren't going to GR. Meech stayed because he plays F and D. That pretty much leaves Kopecky, and I think we would have risked losing him to waivers had we tried to send him down. Looking at it that way, I'm not sure they decided to give Downey's spot to someone else, but rather there was never a spot for him to begin with this year, particularly once we signed Hossa.

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Maybe ... but I guess my point was that there was really noone else who could have gone down because of contracts, not so much because of what they bring to the table. Maltby and Draper aren't going to GR. Meech stayed because he plays F and D. That pretty much leaves Kopecky, and I think we would have risked losing him to waivers had we tried to send him down. Looking at it that way, I'm not sure they decided to give Downey's spot to someone else, but rather there was never a spot for him to begin with this year, particularly once we signed Hossa.

I think that we are saying different versions of the same thing. They had a spot for Downey last year and the team played awesome, but for whatever reason when they decided who was in and who was out Downey was the guy they felt they could do without. I didn't mean to imply that they didn't put Downey on the main roster because he was so bad last year that they didn't want him, I merely meant when they looked over their options this year he was the guy they thought they could do without (for better or for worse).

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