Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted March 22, 2009 He scored twice the other night. Picks up another goal tonight. Sitting on 28 goals. If he gets to 30 goals Does it change the Norris voting significantly? Or Does it have zero effect on the outcome whatsoever? If he were even slightly better defensively would it make him a lock? When is the last time a dman scored 30 goals? I can't remember but I can't imagine its happened very often. It's one thing to score 20 goals in the NHL from 10-12 feet in front of the net. It's an entirely different mix of skill and IMO, pure luck to bag that many from the blueline. Of course Green jumps up into the play alot, I know. But he's scored alot of goals just by teeing off from downtown. You gotta get some luck for those pucks to get thru everyone or not hit your own teammate and go in. All I can say is if he gets to 30 goals, that's 1 heck of an accomplishment. Even if he can't play a lick of D. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 He definitely has amazing offensive talent; that is something I can give him in a heartbeat. In his own end, however, I haven't heard a single story that can demonstrate his defensive capabilities. I have heard numerously that he can be a liability. I personally haven't been able to watch him so I can't formulate an opinion of his defensive play based on direct observation, so these anecdotes are all I have. I expect him to be a Norris candidate regardless, but there are plenty of good defensive players out there who, based on from what I've heard, are better suited for the title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 When is the last time a dman scored 30 goals? Probably Coffey in 89. He didn't get a Norris for it. It's a great accomplishment for sure but, I really don't think he deserves the Norris. I dunno, maybe I'm not able to look at this objectively because I'm so big on defense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rice 42 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Pretty sure the last defenseman to score 30 was Kevin Hatcher in '93. Impressive, but I don't think 30 goals should win Green the Norris. I'd still take quite a few defensemen over him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 K. Hatcher scored 30 goals? WTF?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedStormRising 7 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) Mike Green... yawn... Edited March 22, 2009 by RedStormRising Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 It's a cool story, but when you consider the fact that he plays a s*** defensive game.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daniel1 32 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Kevin Hatcher - more talented than Darian for sure, played mostly for the Caps. Wasn't as aggresive as Derian but had some size too. I forgot Darian is actually still in the league while on his long term IR with the Flyers, doubtful he'll ever play again though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shoreline Report post Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) Green is making himself almost the shoe-in for Norris. I'm pretty sure when considering his defensive capabilities, one would immediately do a comparison to Sheldon Souray, who is notoriously one of the worst defensive defenseman, widely known for mostly his offensive capabilities (i.e. rocket shot from the point) and nasty edge. They will look at statistics and see Green has more points, and a significantly better +/-. If someone were such a defensive liability, especially moreso than their offensive talent is, it would show in their +/-. If they watch the games the Caps play they'd see Green playing a pretty decent defense, and jumping up very often to support the offense. All in all if Green doesn't have an abysmal finish, or no one else has this absolutely spectacular finish, he should get the Norris. I was saying much earlier in the season if Green can hold his consistency he'd be a viable contender for the Norris, and so far he has been. Edited March 22, 2009 by Shoreline Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 He scored twice the other night. Picks up another goal tonight. Sitting on 28 goals. If he gets to 30 goals Does it change the Norris voting significantly? Or Does it have zero effect on the outcome whatsoever? If he were even slightly better defensively would it make him a lock? When is the last time a dman scored 30 goals? I can't remember but I can't imagine its happened very often. It's one thing to score 20 goals in the NHL from 10-12 feet in front of the net. It's an entirely different mix of skill and IMO, pure luck to bag that many from the blueline. Of course Green jumps up into the play alot, I know. But he's scored alot of goals just by teeing off from downtown. You gotta get some luck for those pucks to get thru everyone or not hit your own teammate and go in. All I can say is if he gets to 30 goals, that's 1 heck of an accomplishment. Even if he can't play a lick of D. Nope. I just double-checked my first inclination by spending 3 minutes and watching his goals on nhl.com. 3 goals from within 10-12 feet of the net. 18 goals from within the circles. 3 from beyond the circles. 2 EN goals (one from deep in his own zone). Most of them snap/wrist shots. Two goals are missing, but even if you put them on the blueline side of things he still doesn't score a lot from "downtown". That's part of why the Caps have given up 10 SHG. Green jumps down low and leaves AO or Semin, fellow forwards, alone up high. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reds4Life 51 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Green is not even top5 defenseman in the league let alone future Norris winner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) Nope. I just double-checked my first inclination by spending 3 minutes and watching his goals on nhl.com. 3 goals from within 10-12 feet of the net. 18 goals from within the circles. 3 from beyond the circles. 2 EN goals (one from deep in his own zone). Most of them snap/wrist shots. Two goals are missing, but even if you put them on the blueline side of things he still doesn't score a lot from "downtown". That's part of why the Caps have given up 10 SHG. Green jumps down low and leaves AO or Semin, fellow forwards, alone up high. Note the bolded. I said earlier in the year... the Norris should go to a defenseman, not Green. Edited March 22, 2009 by Doggy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
softshoes 83 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 A lot of people who vote are hanging on this guys sack because of the way he scores goals. Wouldn't suprise me a bit if he get the Norris. The way he scores does skew his +/- numbers a bit don't you think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted March 22, 2009 A lot of people who vote are hanging on this guys sack because of the way he scores goals. Wouldn't suprise me a bit if he get the Norris. The way he scores does skew his +/- numbers a bit don't you think. +/- is +/-. So are you saying Nick Lidstrom's +/- number means something different than Mike Green's +/- number? Last time I checked it was a simple calculation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mindfly Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Doesn't mike green have good +/- because he usually play with ovechkin who scores alot? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cusimano_brothers 1,655 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 From nhl dot com: James Norris Memorial Trophy The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association at the end of the regular season. The James Norris Memorial Trophy was presented in 1953 by the four children of the late James Norris in memory of the former owner-president of the Detroit Red Wings. If Green wins the Norris this season, the League is going to have to change their definiton of who qualifies. And, before someone suggets it: Mike Green is no Bobby Orr. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Nope. I just double-checked my first inclination by spending 3 minutes and watching his goals on nhl.com. 3 goals from within 10-12 feet of the net. 18 goals from within the circles. 3 from beyond the circles. 2 EN goals (one from deep in his own zone). Most of them snap/wrist shots. Two goals are missing, but even if you put them on the blueline side of things he still doesn't score a lot from "downtown". That's part of why the Caps have given up 10 SHG. Green jumps down low and leaves AO or Semin, fellow forwards, alone up high. That's interesting. I knew he scored quite a few goals coming in late, behind the play, usually on the PP. But I thought he had more goals from farther out. Either way, it's still impressive 1st in goals 7th (tied) in assists 1st in points (9 more than Markov who is 2nd, 14 more than Lidstrom) 9th (tied) in plus/minus n 1st in even strength points 2nd in power play points 7th in ice time (Lidstrom is 16th) 107th in short handed time on ice/game. This is the glaring one. For me, this would be the biggest factor in not selecting him as the winner. And please keep in mind I never said he would or should win it. Just asking if his offense would merit more than a passing glance by the voters. You look at the names at the top right now and Nick seems to be making a move. It might be too little too late. But clearly he is still in the running. Well, that is if the voters see it as I do and throw out Markov, Rafalski, Streit, Boyle, Souray, Campbell, Niedermayer, Weber, Wideman and Kronwall. Seriously, who can you give it to? Chara has been rock solid but not blowing anybody out of the water stat wise Nick has been great but not up to his normal standards Green apparently isn't all that great defensively but is absolutely toasting everybody point wise. Essentially he's the Malkin of the D this year with nobody even close to catching him. It's going to be interesting. My fingers are crossed for Nick but wouldn't surprise me in the least if they gave it to Chara OR Green. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted March 22, 2009 From nhl dot com: James Norris Memorial Trophy The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association at the end of the regular season. The James Norris Memorial Trophy was presented in 1953 by the four children of the late James Norris in memory of the former owner-president of the Detroit Red Wings. If Green wins the Norris this season, the League is going to have to change their definiton of who qualifies. And, before someone suggets it: Mike Green is no Bobby Orr. Well, you might have to get ready for that name change then. Didn't Coffey once win it? I never knew Coffey to be a stalwart defensively. My guess is he put up so many points that they gave it to him. Now, Green isn't putting up those numbers but comparatively speaking, from one era to this one, he's putting up pretty big numbers...well, goal numbers anyway. Wouldn't be surprised in the least if they gave it to him. And if they do....LGW is going to be one sad, pissed off place to visit the next day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest micah Report post Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) Probably Coffey in 89. He didn't get a Norris for it. To be fair, Coffey was up against the 1989 version of Chris Chelios and Ray Bourque. There is no defenseman currently playing that is the Defenseman Chelios was in his prime. He was nothing short of amazing. He was also cheap and dirty and cowardly - worse even than Pronger - but he had skills. Edited March 22, 2009 by micah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest micah Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Well, you might have to get ready for that name change then. Didn't Coffey once win it? I never knew Coffey to be a stalwart defensively. My guess is he put up so many points that they gave it to him. Now, Green isn't putting up those numbers but comparatively speaking, from one era to this one, he's putting up pretty big numbers...well, goal numbers anyway. Wouldn't be surprised in the least if they gave it to him. And if they do....LGW is going to be one sad, pissed off place to visit the next day. Coffey won 3. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dat's sick 1,002 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 You could put Ovechkin on the D and he'd score 50 goals and probably have a pretty decent +/-. Doesn't mean he should win the Norris. Green isn't even the go-to guy on the PK for the Caps. He's Lebda with a better shot and more playmaking ability. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted March 22, 2009 You could put Ovechkin on the D and he'd score 50 goals and probably have a pretty decent +/-. Doesn't mean he should win the Norris. Green isn't even the go-to guy on the PK for the Caps. He's Lebda with a better shot and more playmaking ability. Very true. But how then will we explain it if he becomes a finalist? Would that mean we are all just so much smarter than those who decide? Does it mean we're all not as smart as we think we are? Would it mean that, as many have suggested over the years, that the trophy isn't always properly awarded or that there should be two trophies, 1 for offensive D and 1 for defensive D? All I know is Green is making a case, based on past finalists, for being nominated. How then do we reconcile that? There's so many people on LGW that feel Green isn't worth mentioning as a top 5 candidate for the Norris, let alone a top 3. If he gets nominated, I want to know what those people think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dat's sick 1,002 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Very true. But how then will we explain it if he becomes a finalist? Would that mean we are all just so much smarter than those who decide? Does it mean we're all not as smart as we think we are? Would it mean that, as many have suggested over the years, that the trophy isn't always properly awarded or that there should be two trophies, 1 for offensive D and 1 for defensive D? All I know is Green is making a case, based on past finalists, for being nominated. How then do we reconcile that? There's so many people on LGW that feel Green isn't worth mentioning as a top 5 candidate for the Norris, let alone a top 3. If he gets nominated, I want to know what those people think. I'm fully expecting him to be a finalist because of the hype and the simple fact he is the clear leader in points among d-men. I just hope that's as far as it goes. He deserves some recognition for having had a great season, but consider that Washington's big problem is their defense. No one would say they have a ton of great d-men, and still Green is only 4th in Short-handed time played. 6th in avg SH time per game. A Norris winner, just like a Selke winner, should be a player that the coach is not only comfortable having on the ice in crucial moments like PKs, but someone he actually wants to have on the ice at those times. I wouldn't be shocked to see him win, it would be right in line with the "offense first"-thinking that the NHL seems to be all about, but I definitely think there are several candidates much more deserving of the award than Green. Also, wouldn't it just feel very wrong if Mike Green was the player that ended Lids domination of the Norris? It feels strange just to mention the two of them in the same sentence.. "Mike Green, Norris Winner"... no, just sounds wrong. Give it to anyone but Green please. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjlegend 155 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 FWIW, Kevin Hatcher was fourth in Norris voting for his 1992-93 season of 34 goals, 45 assists and little in the way of actual defence apart from fighting. Ahead of him were Chelios, Bourque and Larry Murphy. And don't oversimplify the argument. There are a lot more defencemen out there than Chara and Lidstrom. Duncan Keith, Dan Boyle, and even Rob Blake should get some consideration. All in all- it's a farily wide-open race. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
finalfilppula 2 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 green needs to decide if he wants to play defence or offence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
