Mike Green scores......AGAIN!

[06TJSport 0]

To be fair, Coffey was up against the 1989 version of Chris Chelios and Ray Bourque. There is no defenseman currently playing that is the Defenseman Chelios was in his prime. He was nothing short of amazing. He was also cheap and dirty and cowardly - worse even than Pronger - but he had skills.

Lidstrom now > Chelios in his prime

Unless you are talking about Cheli's playing still which was very unlike Nick's

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Probably Coffey in 89. He didn't get a Norris for it.

It's a great accomplishment for sure but, I really don't think he deserves the Norris. I dunno, maybe I'm not able to look at this objectively because I'm so big on defense.

Agreed. Norris means "Best Defenseman", not best forward that lines up south of centre ice.

[norrisnick 1]

green needs to decide if he wants to play defence or offence.

I'm fairly certain he decided that one a while ago. He just didn't tell his coach.

[Guest micah]

Lidstrom now > Chelios in his prime

Unless you are talking about Cheli's playing still which was very unlike Nick's

Nope. Lidstrom at his peak may have been better than Cheli at his (though I think that's arguable). Chelios in 1989 was better than Listrom is today. Hands down, without a doubt. I don't know anyone who was a fan of hockey in the '80s and still a fan today that would say differently.

[swiss_fan 3]

Nope. Lidstrom at his peak may have been better than Cheli at his (though I think that's arguable). Chelios in 1989 was better than Listrom is today. Hands down, without a doubt. I don't know anyone who was a fan of hockey in the '80s and still a fan today that would say differently.

I was a fan of hockey in the late 80's and i want to tell you it s hard to say.. Their hockey style are different and Lidstrom's play and quality is for sure harder to see at the first glance than Cheli's play at the time (which was spectacular) . Cheli was much more hyped than Lids now that s for sure.

Just for the anecdote, i even had the pleasure to see Chelios' play in person in Switzerland as he came at the beginning of the 90' s, when once half of a season was cancelled.

[toby91_ca 620]

Just some stats for fun of the only defenseman in the history of the NHL to score 30 or more goals in a single season:

Bobby Orr - 5 times, won Norris each time

Paul Coffey - 4 times, won Norris 2 of those times, the other 2 he lost to Rod Langway (one of the best stay at home dman who didn't get enough credit) and Chelios (who happened to have a career high in pts that year)

Dennis Potvin - 3 times, won Norris each time

Phily Housely - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Ray Bourque - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Kevin Hatcher - 1 time, didn't win, Chelios won that year (interestingly enough, Chelios has scored 73pts twice and 72 pts one other time and he won the Norris in each of those years)

Doug Wilson - 1 time, won Norris

Based on this, if Green does score 30 this year, I think he's at least in the argument, wouldn't be my pick, but at least in the argument. I think history has shown that scoring does influence the voting, even for the Norris. That said, looking at my list, there are only a few guys on it that I would say didn't play a heck of a lot of defense.

[Guest mindfly]

Nope. Lidstrom at his peak may have been better than Cheli at his (though I think that's arguable). Chelios in 1989 was better than Listrom is today. Hands down, without a doubt. I don't know anyone who was a fan of hockey in the '80s and still a fan today that would say differently.

When was lidstrom's peak? 05-06 he scored 80pts, his career best, and that's just three seasons ago, e.g last season it was his 4th best season scoring wise...or do you think its the 99-00 when he reached the 20goal mark?

[Guest micah]

When was lidstrom's peak? 05-06 he scored 80pts, his career best, and that's just three seasons ago, e.g last season it was his 4th best season scoring wise...or do you think its the 99-00 when he reached the 20goal mark?

As recently as two seasons ago I remember thinking "Man - he hasn't aged a bit!" Last year I thought "wow - he's still the best Defenceman in the league". This year, I don't think so. If pressed to answer, I'd guess he was at the top of his game from '97ish through '07. I don't think anyone thinks that Lidstrom is playing as well this year as he has in the past.

[Reds4Life 51]

Nope. Lidstrom at his peak may have been better than Cheli at his (though I think that's arguable). Chelios in 1989 was better than Listrom is today. Hands down, without a doubt. I don't know anyone who was a fan of hockey in the '80s and still a fan today that would say differently.

Chelios took way too many minor penalties. I think someone did the math and it was over 3 minutes a game. Imagine that style of play post-lockout. Chelios was a beast, but Lidstrom in his prime was better imho.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Guest micah]

Chelios took way too many minor penalties. I think someone did the math and it was over 3 minutes a game. Imagine that style of play post-lockout. Chelios was a beast, but Lidstrom in his prime was better imho.

I can see some strong arguments for Lidstrom being better in his prime than Chelios. I can't see any for Lidstrom being better today than a prime Chelios.

[toby91_ca 620]

Chelios took way too many minor penalties. I think someone did the math and it was over 3 minutes a game.

Not even close, his career penalty minutes per game is 1.76. He did take a lot of lazy minor penalties, but that penalty minute per game stat would be a lot lower if you exclude his fighting majors, misconducts, etc. He has about 50 fights for his career and I'm sure he's got plenty of 10 minute misconducts.

[toby91_ca 620]

I can see some strong arguments for Lidstrom being better in his prime than Chelios. I can't see any for Lidstrom being better today than a prime Chelios.

I don't think there should be much of an argument, Lidstrom in his prime was better than Chelios in his, but Lidstrom this year is not better than Chelios in his prime.

[Reds4Life 51]

Not even close, his career penalty minutes per game is 1.76. He did take a lot of lazy minor penalties, but that penalty minute per game stat would be a lot lower if you exclude his fighting majors, misconducts, etc. He has about 50 fights for his career and I'm sure he's got plenty of 10 minute misconducts.

I was talking about his prime, not overall career.

[toby91_ca 620]

I was talking about his prime, not overall career.

He's only played 2 seasons where his PIMs were greater than 3 per game. My comments would still be the same, his major penalties would be largely occuring during those years as well, so I'm not sure his minor penalties were any greater back in his prime.....perhaps simply becasue he was on the ice more though.

[bellarina 1]

Chelios in his prime was nothing short of spectacular.Defensively he was sound and scary to play against. He made nasty hits (just ask Brian Propp). He is a true allstar in every sense of that word.

But

Lidstrom is one of those players that are a level above allstar. He is a talent that needs to be compared to with names such as Bobby Orr, Doug Harvey or Raymond Bourque.

I have met many NHL Players and I have asked them about Stevie, Dats, Zetta and Lids.

The answer I get range from amazing hands and vision for Dats, the Heart of Stevie, determination of Zetta, but when they speak of Lids,The most common answer is that he is right up there with #4 as the best all time.

Now I'm much more of a Stevie fan, and a Dats Fan than a Lids fan.

BUT

We are soooo lucky to have him.

Edited March 23, 2009 by bellarina

[dat's sick 1,002]

I don't think there should be much of an argument, Lidstrom in his prime was better than Chelios in his, but Lidstrom this year is not better than Chelios in his prime.

Lidstrom's "prime" was from '95 to '08. He's probably one of the most consistant players in the history of the NHL.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Just some stats for fun of the only defenseman in the history of the NHL to score 30 or more goals in a single season:

Bobby Orr - 5 times, won Norris each time

Paul Coffey - 4 times, won Norris 2 of those times, the other 2 he lost to Rod Langway (one of the best stay at home dman who didn't get enough credit) and Chelios (who happened to have a career high in pts that year)

Dennis Potvin - 3 times, won Norris each time

Phily Housely - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Ray Bourque - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Kevin Hatcher - 1 time, didn't win, Chelios won that year (interestingly enough, Chelios has scored 73pts twice and 72 pts one other time and he won the Norris in each of those years)

Doug Wilson - 1 time, won Norris

Based on this, if Green does score 30 this year, I think he's at least in the argument, wouldn't be my pick, but at least in the argument. I think history has shown that scoring does influence the voting, even for the Norris. That said, looking at my list, there are only a few guys on it that I would say didn't play a heck of a lot of defense.

Great stuff Toby. Thanks for doing the legwork to dig this up.

I wouldn't give Green the Norris but then again, I don't get a say.

[Guest micah]

Lidstrom's "prime" was from '95 to '08. He's probably one of the most consistant players in the history of the NHL.

Okay, I'll buy that.

So what?

[Guest micah]

Just some stats for fun of the only defenseman in the history of the NHL to score 30 or more goals in a single season:

Bobby Orr - 5 times, won Norris each time

Paul Coffey - 4 times, won Norris 2 of those times, the other 2 he lost to Rod Langway (one of the best stay at home dman who didn't get enough credit) and Chelios (who happened to have a career high in pts that year)

Dennis Potvin - 3 times, won Norris each time

Phily Housely - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Ray Bourque - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Kevin Hatcher - 1 time, didn't win, Chelios won that year (interestingly enough, Chelios has scored 73pts twice and 72 pts one other time and he won the Norris in each of those years)

Doug Wilson - 1 time, won Norris

Based on this, if Green does score 30 this year, I think he's at least in the argument, wouldn't be my pick, but at least in the argument. I think history has shown that scoring does influence the voting, even for the Norris. That said, looking at my list, there are only a few guys on it that I would say didn't play a heck of a lot of defense.

I want to quote this again even though it was already quoted and complimented. That's a great post.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

FWIW, Kevin Hatcher was fourth in Norris voting for his 1992-93 season of 34 goals, 45 assists and little in the way of actual defence apart from fighting. Ahead of him were Chelios, Bourque and Larry Murphy.

And don't oversimplify the argument. There are a lot more defencemen out there than Chara and Lidstrom. Duncan Keith, Dan Boyle, and even Rob Blake should get some consideration.

All in all- it's a farily wide-open race.

I'm not oversimplifying anything. "Some consideration" doesn't equate exactly to a wide-open race or a giant field of legitimate candidates. Rafalski could get consideration. Souray could. Markov could. Weber could. Do any of them realistically have a shot of winning? I'd bet a hefty sum that no, they don't.

Look at the top 15 (points-wise) guys

Markov is 2nd in points but a minus 2. He doesn't get the consideration b/c he shouldn't. His being 2nd in points doesn't outweigh the elite of the field and the fact that he isn't on par defensively with some of the others.

Streit is pretty much in the same boat and he's behind Markov so cross him off.

Niedermayer is -15 and the Ducks prolly don't make the playoffs. Nix him.

Dennis Wideman? No shot

Rob Blake is 15th offensively and his numbers are behind Green, Lidstrom, Chara, and Wideman. Who realistically thinks he has any chance? He has ZERO chance.

Nick Kronwall. No need to elaborate. Kudos to him for having a great year though.

Chris Pronger. No chance.

Shea Weber, really good numbers but he trails the top names in most categories other than goals. And goals wouldn't be a deciding factor for him when he's 9 behind Green. Take him off the list.

Sheldon Souray, same boat as Weber with a worse +/-. Not too mention his lack of defensive ability. Nope.

Brian Rafalksi, 3rd in points, good +/- but he isn't better than Nick. He would not get more consideration than Lidstrom.

Brian Campbell, 9th in points and EVEN on the season. He's solid all around but no way has he outshined the top 3.

Dan Boyle, never knew of him to be a stalwart defensively. He's more of an offensive dman and his numbers are essentially the same offensively as Lidstrom's only Nick is +28 while Boyle is +9. Zero chance for Boyle. Boyle is the 3rd option for the Sharks on the PK after Blake and Vlasic. His offensive numbers don't outweigh that fact.

so what's left

Nick Lidstrom, tied for 5th in points, +28 ranks 2nd among the top 15 on this list. Biggest factors against Nick are himself as he hasn't run away with the field like he usually does. And the Wings D is ranked like 18th or something. Bad PK and lots of goals against.

Zdeno Chara, of the 15 guys listed, he's 4th in goals, 3rd in +/- at 24. #1 ranked Defense. Factors working against Chara are that he isn't leading in any category. However, of the 15 guys listed here, Chara is #1 in total ice time.

Mike Green, obviously he doesn't have the defensive credentials on par with Nick and Zdeno and many others on the list. However, he is so far ahead goals and points wise, while still maintaining the 4th best +/- of the group. It doesn't matter how we think he got to his +/-, it is what it is. And for a team whose weak spot is defense and boasts no names akin to Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart and Kronwall, the Caps have given up just 4 more goals than the vaunted Red Wings. And they have played 2 more games already.

IMO, this is your horse race right now. I don't think enough time is left in the season for anybody to make a late season push.

The way I see it, its probably Chara's as he's had the most well rounded season, combined with his icetime (he trails only Niedermayer and Pronger in total ice time) and his Boston team has the #1 defense.

I can't say with any certainty if Nick or Green is in 2nd. My heart would tell me that Nick should blow Green out of the water but thinking along the lines of the voters, i'd say Green is going to give Chara a run for his money.

Edited March 23, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[dat's sick 1,002]

Okay, I'll buy that.

So what?

Just saying it's funny to talk about "Lidstrom's prime" like it was a couple of magical years at a certain point in his career.

Lidstrom's prime IS his career. I guess you could say he's headed downhill now, but he's not been that much worse than usual this year.

Certainly his numbers don't really show much of a decline.

[Dabura 12,232]

Nick Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the NHL. Talk is going around that he's having an off-season -- maybe so, but an off-season for Nick is still better than any other defenseman's season. Mike Green scores a lot. That's it. I'm not sure he even knows how to play D.

[bellarina 1]

Nick Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the NHL. Talk is going around that he's having an off-season -- maybe so, but an off-season for Nick is still better than any other defenseman's season. Mike Green scores a lot. That's it. I'm not sure he even knows how to play D.

I'm with you.

[eva unit zero 271]

Just some stats for fun of the only defenseman in the history of the NHL to score 30 or more goals in a single season:

Bobby Orr - 5 times, won Norris each time

Paul Coffey - 4 times, won Norris 2 of those times, the other 2 he lost to Rod Langway (one of the best stay at home dman who didn't get enough credit) and Chelios (who happened to have a career high in pts that year)

Dennis Potvin - 3 times, won Norris each time

Phily Housely - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Ray Bourque - 1 time, didn't win, same year that Langway won

Kevin Hatcher - 1 time, didn't win, Chelios won that year (interestingly enough, Chelios has scored 73pts twice and 72 pts one other time and he won the Norris in each of those years)

Doug Wilson - 1 time, won Norris

Based on this, if Green does score 30 this year, I think he's at least in the argument, wouldn't be my pick, but at least in the argument. I think history has shown that scoring does influence the voting, even for the Norris. That said, looking at my list, there are only a few guys on it that I would say didn't play a heck of a lot of defense.

There is nobody on that list, in those years, that Green even comes CLOSE to in defensive ability except for one person. Phil Housley. That's it. The only 30-goal scoring defenseman Mike Green is anywhere near is Phil Housley. Sorry, but that is a step below Norris-level, which is what Lidstrom is at.

Orr, Potvin, Bourque, Wilson were all very good defensively. Coffey and Hatcher in their primes were much better than average defensively, and that includes their 30-goal seasons. Green has put up big numbers...but his defense has been atrocious. I would put him in the same level of defensemen as Rafalski and Kronwall, just below that top handful of guys who are actually valid contenders.

It's like I have said. Lidstrom is the reason Dats has a 0% chance at the Hart. Because Dats is not even Detroit's MVP, he can't be the league's MVP.

[Guest Shoreline]

Just to stir the pot..

TSN Player Rankings

1. Alex Ovechkin

2. Mike Green

3. Zach Parise

4. Evgeni Malkin

5. Pavel Datsyuk

What's also funny is I recall someone (probably akustyk) talking about TSN's Canadian bias. The top 5 is laden with 1 Canadian, 3 Russians, and 1 American.

Btw, I have a feeling Green will win the Norris.

Edited March 26, 2009 by Shoreline