Contract talks between Wings and Hossa, Franzen on hold

[JeffBridges 0]

I don't think Hossa will ever play his best with either Z or Dats. Babbock will never do it but the best option is Z&D on the #1 line, then Flip/Hossa on the second. The line of Leino - flip - Hossa was awesome when it was together.

I personally believe that Datsyuk and Zetterberg split make this team better. And since both are locked up long term, as well as Helm waiting for a spot, trading Flip makes the most sense.

You easily free up $10 million trading Flip and letting Hossa walk. Thats enough to offset the cost of Zetterberg's contract increase and Franzen's new deal.

Homer-Datsyuk-Franzen

Cleary-Zetterberg-Leino

Flip is effectively what Jordan Staal is to the Pens, hes redundant. We have two all star centermen, no reason to have three. Draper isn't going anywhere and Helm needs a spot.

[Z and D for the C 712]

^ It seems to be like you're letting a lot of talent go just to give helm a spot. I haven't ever seen any evidence to think the team is better with Z&D split up.

[JeffBridges 0]

^ It seems to be like you're letting a lot of talent go just to give helm a spot. I haven't ever seen any evidence to think the team is better with Z&D split up.

The only talent let go is Hossa... Flip wouldn't be a pure salary dump, we would receive prospects or picks in return.

Retaining Hossa at $6-7 million means losing Hudler, Samuelsson and possibly Franzen. Signing both isn't an option.

This team isn't deep enough to lose that many players to retain one. Helm is easily capable of playing the role Flip does now.

[KrazyGangsta 79]

The only talent let go is Hossa... Flip wouldn't be a pure salary dump, we would receive prospects or picks in return.

Retaining Hossa at $6-7 million means losing Hudler, Samuelsson and possibly Franzen. Signing both isn't an option.

This team isn't deep enough to lose that many players to retain one. Helm is easily capable of playing the role Flip does now.

Samuelsson we don't need, Flip we don't need I'll take huds and hossa.

[titanium2 867]

I've been impressed with Franzen's passing game lately. (I wonder if he had a personal goal of reaching 30 goals this season, and now that hes hit it, is willing to give the puck up a little more to his teammates).

Haha...

"My first assist this year that's not a rebound," Franzen joked. "He called for it. I was going to take the shot, but I was trying to shoot all night and it didn't really work for me. I heard Hossa coming, he was yelling for the puck. I faked a shot and went back to him in the middle. The goalie wasn't really ready for it."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20..._red_wings.html

[JeffBridges 0]

Samuelsson we don't need, Flip we don't need I'll take huds and hossa.

Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Homer

Cleary-Hudler-Hossa

Pretty weak...

Samuelsson offers marginal savings, with the resigning of Zetterberg, Franzen and Hudler you're looking at least $7 million added to the payroll, so Hossa is gone. If you let Franzen walk and keep Hossa, you're still losing Hudler, unless you trade Flip, which leaves you:

Homer-Datsyuk-Cleary/Leino

Hudler-Zetterberg-Hossa

Franzen has developed a chemistry with Datsyuk, its important not to over look that. Hossa can play with ANYONE on the team because he dictates the flow of play. That doesn't really work well with Zetterberg or Datsyuk.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

I personally believe that Datsyuk and Zetterberg split make this team better. And since both are locked up long term, as well as Helm waiting for a spot, trading Flip makes the most sense.

You easily free up $10 million trading Flip and letting Hossa walk. Thats enough to offset the cost of Zetterberg's contract increase and Franzen's new deal.

Homer-Datsyuk-Franzen

Cleary-Zetterberg-Leino

Flip is effectively what Jordan Staal is to the Pens, hes redundant. We have two all star centermen, no reason to have three. Draper isn't going anywhere and Helm needs a spot.

That is a terrible outcome. Clearly is borderline top 6 and what we see right now is his maximum potential. You're prepared to put Leino in the top 6 on the back of a dozen or so games? I'm sorry but those lines are pretty dodgy. Holmstrom is becoming increasingly injury prone and what happens if he misses and extended period of time; Kopecky gets top line duties? See how short on depth that team suddenly becomes?

C'mon mate, think about it for a second...

[Aussie_Wing 354]

The only talent let go is Hossa... Flip wouldn't be a pure salary dump, we would receive prospects or picks in return.

Retaining Hossa at $6-7 million means losing Hudler, Samuelsson and possibly Franzen. Signing both isn't an option.

This team isn't deep enough to lose that many players to retain one. Helm is easily capable of playing the role Flip does now.

Now this takes the cake!

"Easily capable"? Not just capable, but easily? Give me a break. Helm has played 23 regular season game for 1 assist. 41 NHL games in total for 2 goals, 3 assists. I like him, one of my favourite prospects and he'll be a Wing for a long time, but there is NO way he can replace Flip next season or probably ever. Flip has more offensive talent and is better defensively. Lets not forget Helm was a -7 during his brief stint in Detroit...

[JeffBridges 0]

That is a terrible outcome. Clearly is borderline top 6 and what we see right now is his maximum potential. You're prepared to put Leino in the top 6 on the back of a dozen or so games? I'm sorry but those lines are pretty dodgy. Holmstrom is becoming increasingly injury prone and what happens if he misses and extended period of time; Kopecky gets top line duties? See how short on depth that team suddenly becomes?

C'mon mate, think about it for a second...

Like I said, the extra cash would be used for a guy like Bouwmeester, instead of Hossa. This team is built from the defense out but the defense is terrible and its not going to get any better without injecting new blood. Ericsson has done that somewhat but what happens when Lidstrom retires?

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Like I said, the extra cash would be used for a guy like Bouwmeester, instead of Hossa. This team is built from the defense out but the defense is terrible and its not going to get any better without injecting new blood. Ericsson has done that somewhat but what happens when Lidstrom retires?

Bouwmeester is in my top 5 favourite players in the league but there's no way we'll be able to sign him, even if we let Hossa go. If we did manage to sign him we would be losing Franzen or Hudler, perhaps even both.

You can't replace a guy like Lidstrom because he is so good but you do your best. I'm not quite sure when he's going to retire and given how well he is playing and that he doesn't appear to be slowing down, it could be some time away. In any case we have a good group of guys signed for a few more years and we have potential top pairing defenceman developing in Kindl, Smith. Then there's guys like Nicastro, Pyett and Kolosov. Big name defencemen are always coming out of contract so perhaps in a few years time when we're not so tight up against the cap we'll be able to sign a gem.

[TheOwl 77]

If it comes down to not trading anyone, Franzen must be the one kept. Hossa even at 6 million is too much, we won't be able to keep ANYONE, not Leino, not Conks, not Sammy, not Leino.

Here what you do. Ericsson is a beast. He's NHL ready, and he's out-performing Kronwall and Stuart. Andreas and Lebda make next to nothing as is, let them stay. Holland needs to trade one of the two, ask Stuart to waive NTC and trade him to a good team, Devils, Boston, Montreal, somewhere he'll be happy, if not, get rid of Kronwall. I love them both. But I love the idea of cheap Ericcson a lot more. This guy is a top 6 for sure, now.

Detroit is WASTING these guys away in Grand Rapids. OK, get rid of Kronwall or Stuart, you get around 3 million in cap space. Sign Franzen, Hossa at a combined 9 million. Hossa 5.5, Franzen 3.5, long term. Holland then has around 4 million for a second goalie, 3 forwards. Goalie can be got for around 1 million, a Conklin type guy. Use the other 4 million short term contracts to sign 3 more forwards, Leino at 1 million, Hudler or Sammy at 2 million, and some other GR guy for the minimum. At least with Hudler we get picks if he won't take 2 million. Once Lidstrom contract goes away, give Hudler a raise if he'll play cheap next season.

The point really is, we have NHL ready D-men, we don't have any real top-6, or really top-9 forwards at all in the system. Get rid of Kronwall or Stuart, use their cap space to sign Franzen, straight up. Even Meech is NHL ready. Get rid of both. Wings need cheap D-rookies to make room for these perhaps once-in-a-decade forwards. Where's the next Franzen in Grand Rapids? Where's the next Hossa? You would all do it.

Edited March 25, 2009 by TheOwl

[Aussie_Wing 354]

If it comes down to not trading anyone, Franzen must be the one kept. Hossa even at 6 million is too much, we won't be able to keep ANYONE, not Leino, not Conks, not Sammy, not Leino.

Here what you do. Ericsson is a beast. He's NHL ready, and he's out-performing Kronwall and Stuart. Andreas and Lebda make next to nothing as is, let them stay. Holland needs to trade one of the two, ask Stuart to trade NTC and trade him to a good team, Devils, Boston, Montreal, somewhere he'll be happy, if not, get rid of Kronwall. I love them both. But I love the idea of cheap Ericcson a lot more. This guy is a top 6 for sure, now.

Detroit is WASTING these guys away in Grand Rapids. OK, get rid of Kronwall or Stuart, you get around 3 million in cap space. Sign Franzen, Hossa at a combined 9 million. Hossa 5.5, Franzen 3.5, long term. Holland then has around 4 million for a second goalie, 3 forwards. Goalie can be got for around 1 million, a Conklin type guy. Use the other 4 million short term contracts to sign 3 more forwards, Leino at 1 million, Hudler or Sammy at 2 million, and some other GR guy for the minimum. At least with Hudler we get picks if he won't take 2 million. Once Lidstrom contract goes away, give Hudler a raise if he'll play cheap next season.

The point really is, we have NHL ready D-men, we don't have any real top-6, or really top-9 forwards at all in the system. Get rid of Kronwall or Stuart, use their cap space to sign Franzen, straight up. Even Meech is NHL ready. Get rid of both. Wings need cheap D-rookies to make room for these perhaps once-in-a-decade forwards. Where's the next Franzen in Grand Rapids? Where's the next Hossa? You would all do it.

I'm willing to bet that if Ericsson had been given more of a look-in last season he would've been here all along and there wouldn't have been a need to size, or at least re-sign Stuart. He's locked up at what, $3.75 mil which includes a NTC. I like Stuart and at his best he's a very good player to have on this team but Ericsson has fit in so well and could fill his role if need be.

[Red Crazy 201]

The Wings will never ask Stuart to waive his NTC after the first year. So I think Kronwall has to go. Ericsson has proved that he can play the same role as Kronner and for a way less money. Flip can go too. He is a good player and we might regret it in the future but we need his cap money. Leino or Helm are much cheaper and again we need the cap space.

The Wings are luckey to be in this position they are in, they have so many great players ready to come up and they have a chance to keep two very gifted forwards long term by making a couple of minor moves. I don't see that moving Flip and Kronner would be that hard on our depth when you consider their replacements.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

The Wings will never ask Stuart to waive his NTC after the first year. So I think Kronwall has to go. Ericsson has proved that he can play the same role as Kronner and for a way less money. Flip can go too. He is a good player and we might regret it in the future but we need his cap money. Leino or Helm are much cheaper and again we need the cap space.

You'd make a tremendous GM.

Stuff the long term, lets only focus on the short term!

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

You'd make a tremendous GM.

Stuff the long term, lets only focus on the short term!

I understand where you are coming from, but he has a point as well, so I can side with both. No one knows what's going to happen in the future with the cap, the team, or the NHL in general. There's something to be said with putting your team in the best position to win now or in the short term, because you may not have that opportunity again, especially in a cap era. Look at the Lions.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

I understand where you are coming from, but he has a point as well, so I can side with both. No one knows what's going to happen in the future with the cap, the team, or the NHL in general. There's something to be said with putting your team in the best position to win now or in the short term, because you may not have that opportunity again, especially in a cap era. Look at the Lions.

I get annoyed with Kronwall, a lot, but the fact remains that he's going to put up 50 points this season as a 2nd pairing defenceman. Sure at times he's a turnover machine and he will join the rush at the expense of looking after his defensive responsibilities but he has finally overcome his injury problems and not only has he set a career high in points but he will smash it. He's not going anywhere and rightfully so. When Lidstrom retires he will be in his prime and will probably be leading our defence. He's too valuable to trade away just to clear up space.

Filppula has just turned 25, is prodominantly our 3rd line centre who sees limited PP time and yet he's set a new career high in points and now that he's actually shooting the puck he's starting to score. 5 goals in 9 games backs this up. He's got the potential to be a 20 goal, 50-60 point guy who is solid defensively and will provide clutch goals in the playoffs. He too is not going anywhere.

Realistically if we want this team to be successful for as long as possible, and that means consistently challenging for Cups, then we would be better off letting Hossa go. Regrettable for sure given how successful he's been this season and how much he seems to enjoy it here, but we'd be better off with the depth that Hossa's departure ensures.

[Guest Shoreline]

Filppula has just turned 25, is prodominantly our 3rd line centre who sees limited PP time and yet he's set a new career high in points and now that he's actually shooting the puck he's starting to score. 5 goals in 9 games backs this up. He's got the potential to be a 20 goal, 50-60 point guy who is solid defensively and will provide clutch goals in the playoffs. He too is not going anywhere.

Realistically if we want this team to be successful for as long as possible, and that means consistently challenging for Cups, then we would be better off letting Hossa go. Regrettable for sure given how successful he's been this season and how much he seems to enjoy it here, but we'd be better off with the depth that Hossa's departure ensures.

This (to top), and this (sadly, to bottom).

To put in perspective, a certain group of people have been ragging on Flip all season long. It's got to be simply a fad like Lilja and Osgood bashing. Flip is fine, and Flip is going to be a Wing for a while. Get over it, haters.

And again, sadly, our Wings may lose Hossa, but that is a reality people should have been prepared for from the start. I said it at the beginning that people should NOT get too infatuated with Hossa and keep their expectations low, else they may be whining like Pens fans when they lose an excellent scorer and playmaker. Right now he is ONLY A RENTAL. Until he signs a contract for more than one year, keep the mindset that he's going to go.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

I get annoyed with Kronwall, a lot, but the fact remains that he's going to put up 50 points this season as a 2nd pairing defenceman. Sure at times he's a turnover machine and he will join the rush at the expense of looking after his defensive responsibilities but he has finally overcome his injury problems and not only has he set a career high in points but he will smash it. He's not going anywhere and rightfully so. When Lidstrom retires he will be in his prime and will probably be leading our defence. He's too valuable to trade away just to clear up space.

Filppula has just turned 25, is prodominantly our 3rd line centre who sees limited PP time and yet he's set a new career high in points and now that he's actually shooting the puck he's starting to score. 5 goals in 9 games backs this up. He's got the potential to be a 20 goal, 50-60 point guy who is solid defensively and will provide clutch goals in the playoffs. He too is not going anywhere.

Realistically if we want this team to be successful for as long as possible, and that means consistently challenging for Cups, then we would be better off letting Hossa go. Regrettable for sure given how successful he's been this season and how much he seems to enjoy it here, but we'd be better off with the depth that Hossa's departure ensures.

I'm with you on the player perspective. I was just agreeing with his analogy that you do what you can to give your team the best chance to win the cup in the short term, not necessarily his feeling on players. I ideally don't want to see Kronwall or Flip go.

[chrisdetroit 189]

The title of the thread says that the talks are "on hold". That's not what the article says. It says that they are "stalled". This is a big difference.

"On Hold" means that they have decided to suspend negotiations.

"Stalled" means that they are at a point where they are not making any progress. But they still may be talking.

[egroen 384]

I don't want Filppula to stay simply because he signed first. If there is a way to fit one of Hossa/Franzen and Hudler in if Filppula is traded I am all for it. Especialy if those guys are willing to sign for a nice hometown discount (which Filppula did not). Reward those who are willing to sign for less.

I would prefer to keep Filppula on the team, without a doubt - I just do not think his postential is that of Franzen or Hudler.

[South Dakota wings fan 7]

Reports were Holland was meeting with Hossa's agent today. Rich Winter lives in Edmonton. Guess it didn't go all that well.

I'm leaning towards Franzen and the extra money for Hudler/Leino/other players. I'm not trying to take away from what Hossa can do, but I think Franzen isn't done getting better and he'll come slightly cheaper. Like the article said, "Every $100,000 matters." I'd rather have a more well rounded team.

I think after the playoffs, the Wings will have a better grip on whether they should use that money for the forwards or maybe a goalie. Better to wait.

Kenny has said more than once he is looking for the best hockey deal. I think Hossa is more of a game breaker, but for around 2 mil less, I think Mule is the better deal. We know the Mule has a knack for being clutch, 2 ot game winners in the playoffs, and keeps getting better. Mule is a little more fragile, but that could be because he is in front of the net like Homer. Less is more in this case. We must remember, they won the cup without Hossa, and could do the same in the future.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

The wings are by far the deepest team in the league. I think they can spare a bit of the depth. They'll still end up being one of the deepest teams in the league.

Do you understand that our offense is the only reason we have the record we have this year? Depleting our offensive depth with fat contracts, especially when the cap is without a doubt going down, means no room to address goaltending OR defense, in the off-season OR the deadline.

[Enforcer#24 0]

Does anyone know what the expected boost in Hudler´s pay will appr. be?

The same pay check as Flip or even higher?

IMO we should not spend all the remaining money for those forward guys (even if my heart will bleed to see some of them go!). At the end of the day it´ll all about the numbers and the home discounts the players (and Kenny) are willing to accept...

I honestly believe that a possible change in the line-up could be a great chance as well. "New" hungry players like Helm, Leino, Ericcson, Howard...and the better opportunities for e.g. Filppula, Hudler could help to relume the old fire.

Additionally I would like to see some really new faces in the next season (primarily some tough grit players!!)

If the job is done right and the mission completed I think it isn´t unrealistic that some players will consider an earlier retirement...(that doesn´t include the captain of course. He will have to play for the rest of his life...)

So Kenny would get some more opportunities within the cap...(top goaltender??)

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Forwards signed:

Datsyuk - Hank - Homer

Cleary - Draper - Filppula

Maltby - Helm

Dmen signed:

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Stuart - Kronwall

Ericsson - Lilja

Lebda - Meech

Goalies signed:

Osgood

Howard

Total: 48.96M, after trading Lebda.

Option I. Sign ONLY Franzen to 4M, whatever length

-Cap = 52.96, 9 forwards

-Sign Leino = + 975k

-Hope that Hudler is willing to take a 1 year, ~2.2M deal

-sign a 12th and 13th forward to 500k apiece

-Total = 57.136M (2 goalies, 7 Dmen, 13 forwards)

-And still not under the current cap

-Lost = Primary: Hossa, Samuelsson Secondary: Lebda, Chelios, McCarty, Kopecky, Downey.

Option II.

-Signing Hossa and Franzen - lets say, to a combined, idealistic 10M - giving you 10 signed forwards.

-Cap = 58.96M without two 4th line forwards and a 13th forward.

-Sign 3 forwards @ 500k apiece = 60.46M (13 forwards, 7Dmen, 2 goalies)

-Lost = Primary: Hudler, Leino, Samuelsson Secondary: Lebda, Chelios, McCarty, Kopecky, Downey.

-And still not under the cap

Option II Solution

-Trade Filppula

-Salary = 55.96, forwards = 9

-4 forwards x 500k apiece = 57.96

-Lost = Primary: Hudler, Filppula, Leino, Samuelsson Secondary: Lebda, Chelios, McCarty, Kopecky, Downey.

-And still not under the cap

Option III. Signing ONLY Hossa, ~ 6M, whatever length

Total = 54.96 (2 goalies, 7 Dmen, 9 forwards)

- Is a condition of Hossa re-signing that Kopecky is re-signed? Give Kopecky 750k. Total = 55.71, now with 10 forwards.

- If Detroit signs Leino to a similar contract he had this year (975k), then that puts Detroit at 56.685. Now 11 forwards.

- But Detroit still needs 2 more forwards, so 2 forwards at 500k = 57.685

- If Detroit wants to get closer to the cap in this scenario, then they DON'T re-sign Leino, but trade him. Thus 3 forwards x 500k

- Total = 57.21

-Lost = Primary: Franzen, Hudler, Leino, Samuelsson Secondary: Lebda, Chelios, McCarty, Kopecky, Downey.

- And Detroit still isn't under the cap.

And keep in mind, anyone we trade in these scenarios is going to require prospects or picks in return - no salary.

[titanium2 867]

Kenny has said more than once he is looking for the best hockey deal. I think Hossa is more of a game breaker, but for around 2 mil less, I think Mule is the better deal. We know the Mule has a knack for being clutch, 2 ot game winners in the playoffs, and keeps getting better. Mule is a little more fragile, but that could be because he is in front of the net like Homer. Less is more in this case. We must remember, they won the cup without Hossa, and could do the same in the future.

A couple weeks ago I had a late night where I just couldn't sleep for the life of me. I pretty much looked at all the goals scored by Hossa and Franzen. Hossa leans more around the perimeter while Franzen operates much closer to the crease on many of his goals whether it's a PP or even strength. It will be very interesting to see how those two differ in stats during the playoffs, which is when guys like Franzen who gravitate more towards the crease may become more effective.