Red Wings are the superior team despite loss

[87to71 0]

Detroit played like s*** and Penguins took advantage of their chances, does that make them better than the Hawk? hell no. Hawks is a very impressive team. And don't forget that detroit fell down 2-1 against the Ducks and we come back and won in 7.

Pens are just a team that gets a few lucky non-calls and took advantage of an unhealthy, tired Detroit team. I highly, highly doubt you're team can still a game in Detroit. In fact, since their will be a nice break after game 5, I like Detroit's chances of stealing a game in s***tsburgh. If not, we still have home ice

Good win tonight. I'm sure Bettman is a very happy man.

Detroit looks worn down and tired to me. The Pens are starting to frustrate them more and more with their physical play. What unlucky calls tonight you talking about?? The Wings had 4 power plays and had 4 straight minutes of power play time in the 2nd when they were up 1 and let up a short handed goal. Plus, you got Draper back tonight too so does that not count for being more healthy?? Tell Datsyuk to go quit making jokes about drinking beer and quit being a ***** and suck it up and play. It still wont matter even if he does come back he wont help the Wings win this series much like Draper was a non factor tonight as well...Pens in 6

[Trapt1307 81]

Sweet. See you after game 5. Oh wait...

[Yak19 303]

Detroit looks worn down and tired to me. The Pens are starting to frustrate them more and more with their physical play. What unlucky calls tonight you talking about?? The Wings had 4 power plays and had 4 straight minutes of power play time in the 2nd when they were up 1 and let up a short handed goal. Plus, you got Draper back tonight too so does that not count for being more healthy?? Tell Datsyuk to go quit making jokes about drinking beer and quit being a ***** and suck it up and play. It still wont matter even if he does come back he wont help the Wings win this series much like Draper was a non factor tonight as well...Pens in 6

Wings in 6

[Snazzy 0]

Wings in 6

^ This. I feel very good about our chances. Win the game at the Joe and steal one in Pittsburgh. That would really piss Bettman off!

[Ladsud2002 0]

Wings need 2 days off bad.

[Snazzy 0]

Wings need 2 days off bad.

I do agree with this. After we got shafted on the schedule, I knew it was going to wear down the boys. Detroit is the better team, but with them being tired it is making Pittsburgh look better than they are.

[Mcquade 0]

From what I've been watching (both at the games and home on tv).. this has been a great match with both teams sharing their punches. The series is tied and down to a best of 3. The momentum in this series switches period by period.

Every time the Wings have the puck I'm nervous as hell, and every time my Pens have it I'm out of my seat expecting something big. This wasn't going to be a cake walk for either side. If anyone was expecting superiority or domination then they're just being a homer and finding excuses. For me as a Pens fan the Wings have been the ultimate challenge, when they win it's becuase we didn't play hard enough and they were simply better. Superior despite losing is a load of absolute crock.

[djt813 0]

From what I've been watching (both at the games and home on tv).. this has been a great match with both teams sharing their punches. The series is tied and down to a best of 3. The momentum in this series switches period by period.

Every time the Wings have the puck I'm nervous as hell, and every time my Pens have it I'm out of my seat expecting something big. This wasn't going to be a cake walk for either side. If anyone was expecting superiority or domination then they're just being a homer and finding excuses. For me as a Pens fan the Wings have been the ultimate challenge, when they win it's becuase we didn't play hard enough and they were simply better. Superior despite losing is a load of absolute crock.

Wow, displaying an astounding lack of hockey knowledge. Playing a superior game and losing is very possible in hockey. It's all about getting breaks.

Pittsburgh's game 3 breaks came in the form of horrible zebra calls.

Ignoring nearly half a minute of 6 men on the ice, 4 of them continuously cycling the puck down low in the offensive zone, is an absolutely unforgiveable mistake. Yes, refs are human and make mistakes, but that is well beyond the realm of acceptable error for 4 of the best NHL officials in the Stanley Cup finals. Then, the same laughable refs have the audacity to put us on the penalty kill when we should be enjoying a goal lead and man advantage, potentially making it a two goal advantage. Instead, the Pens get a disgustingly unfair powerplay and tie the game.

Add to that Kunitz glaring cross check to Franzen's head that went suspiciously uncalled despite Franzen having just played the puck and the referees almost forced to see the penalty even if they were trying to ignore it.

And finally, making a rather weak interference call on Erickson that Orpik and Gill had committed repeatedly throughout the first two periods without any repercussion in the third period was a heck of a lot to make the Wings overcome.

Granted, our second period should have led to about 2-3 goals that made all of that not matter. But it is digusting to see such an inconsistent bunch of calls in favor of one team having a profound effect on the game.

And now that game 4 is over, you would think time would make it hurt less. But the reality is we earned the win in game 3 if it weren't for referees deciding the game. And to lose tonight would have just been missing out on a sweep. As Penguins fans know very well between this year and last - there is a HUGE difference between 3-1 and 2-2 after game 4. Too bad this year isn't 3-1 like last year, and like the game 3 effort should have made it.

Maybe it sounds petty and living a bit too much in the past. That could be true, but it is also a very justified evaluation of the series.

Derek

P.S. Not a fairweather or losing face - still say Wings in 6. We just need a little rest to get our legs under us and our spirit back. Wouldn't help to get our Hart Trophy candidate back. Wonder where the flightless birds would be without their Hart candidate?

[Guest Crymson]

Still think the Hawks are more resilient then the Pens after tonight ******?? Yea it will be nice to win the Cup on home-ice and if the Pens keep playing like they are now and frustrating and out physicalling the Red Wings the Cup will be won on home ice at Mellon Arena Tuesday night in Pittsburgh. I love the Penguins chances now of going into Detroit and stealing game 5 whether Datsyuk plays in that game or not...

I've got a great idea---if you're going to behave like this, why don't you piss off back to your own team's forums?

[Pens25 0]

And now that game 4 is over, you would think time would make it hurt less. But the reality is we earned the win in game 3 if it weren't for referees deciding the game. And to lose tonight would have just been missing out on a sweep. As Penguins fans know very well between this year and last - there is a HUGE difference between 3-1 and 2-2 after game 4. Too bad this year isn't 3-1 like last year, and like the game 3 effort should have made it.

P.S. Not a fairweather or losing face - still say Wings in 6. We just need a little rest to get our legs under us and our spirit back. Wouldn't help to get our Hart Trophy candidate back. Wonder where the flightless birds would be without their Hart candidate?

So the reff's have missed some calls on the Pen's a peewee ref should have seen. They've missed some on the Wings too. Off the top of my head, 2 high sticks on Stall, and one of them gave him a bloody nose so it would have been a double minor. Guess the refs stope game 2 from the Pens.....

And as far as getting screwed by the schedule and the wings being tired, the Pens have played the basically the same schedule. Sure they had an extra day of rest before the finals started, but if the Wings sweep the hawks, then they get an extra day of rest instead. The Pens have actually played one more game than the Wings this post season.

As far as how would the pens be with out Malkin or Crosby? No one claimed they could win without one of those too. But arent the Wings suppose to be the deepest team in the NHL? If they're so deep, why is Datsuyk so important to the team then?

[Snazzy 0]

So the reff's have missed some calls on the Pen's a peewee ref should have seen. They've missed some on the Wings too. Off the top of my head, 2 high sticks on Stall, and one of them gave him a bloody nose so it would have been a double minor. Guess the refs stope game 2 from the Pens.....

And as far as getting screwed by the schedule and the wings being tired, the Pens have played the basically the same schedule. Sure they had an extra day of rest before the finals started, but if the Wings sweep the hawks, then they get an extra day of rest instead. The Pens have actually played one more game than the Wings this post season.

As far as how would the pens be with out Malkin or Crosby? No one claimed they could win without one of those too. But arent the Wings suppose to be the deepest team in the NHL? If they're so deep, why is Datsuyk so important to the team then?

Wow, you're team manages to pull off a win in your arena--when Wings decided not to show up, and now you wish to act all high and mighty. I hope your team has this same attitude as you do. Just remember, the series is only tied. Pens still have to win at the Joe, and that ain't gonna happen. I've been saying since the series started, Wings in 6. So far, so right.

I'd tone it down a bit there, champ. Don't wanna jinx your team (not that it really matters).

By the way, Crosby should have been a diver, not a hockey player. Pathetic!

EDIT: I called this too... I said if Pens found a way to steal game 4, prepare for the trolls... they are gonna come in flocks. Again I was right.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Snazzy

[Firehawk 305]

So the reff's have missed some calls on the Pen's a peewee ref should have seen. They've missed some on the Wings too. Off the top of my head, 2 high sticks on Stall, and one of them gave him a bloody nose so it would have been a double minor. Guess the refs stope game 2 from the Pens.....

And as far as getting screwed by the schedule and the wings being tired, the Pens have played the basically the same schedule. Sure they had an extra day of rest before the finals started, but if the Wings sweep the hawks, then they get an extra day of rest instead. The Pens have actually played one more game than the Wings this post season.

As far as how would the pens be with out Malkin or Crosby? No one claimed they could win without one of those too. But arent the Wings suppose to be the deepest team in the NHL? If they're so deep, why is Datsuyk so important to the team then?

I agree with you 100%.

All of us have been preaching that we are far deeper than the Pens, and that we can still win without Datsyuk, UNTIL NOW. I still think we're deeper, but we are gassed, and that's the difference.

The refs have been bad both ways in this series. It's arguable that it might haave cost the wings game 3 if they had gotten the too many men call and scored onit, but that's a WHAT IF and there's no guarentee we woulda scored there anyways. In fact, given we're like 1 for 12 or whatever, I'd say we probably wouldn't have scored.

The Pens should be given credit. They're playing like they want it more, and the wings are playing like they're completely gassed and want no part of it. The pens should be given alot of credit for hanging in there. They faced another 2-0 deficit in the series and had a 3% chance of winning it based on history.

We'll see how game 5 goes.

One thing to note, not so much the refs, but the linesmen. They have been absolutely atrocious in the SCF. Usually the refs make almost no mistakes, but this series they have missed alot of off side plays...really they were bad in the Chicago series as well.

[Snazzy 0]

What is the percentage of teams that came back from a 0-2, to tie it 2-2 and STILL lose?

I'm only asking because I am sure there might be a good number (more than you think), but at the end of the series, it's still recorded as a loss in the books.

I can't help but think that Wings will get two 3-day breaks after gm5 and gm6. Also, I think home ice for game 5 is really going to give the team a boost.

[Mcquade 0]

Wow, displaying an astounding lack of hockey knowledge. Playing a superior game and losing is very possible in hockey. It's all about getting breaks.

Pittsburgh's game 3 breaks came in the form of horrible zebra calls.

Ignoring nearly half a minute of 6 men on the ice, 4 of them continuously cycling the puck down low in the offensive zone, is an absolutely unforgiveable mistake. Yes, refs are human and make mistakes, but that is well beyond the realm of acceptable error for 4 of the best NHL officials in the Stanley Cup finals. Then, the same laughable refs have the audacity to put us on the penalty kill when we should be enjoying a goal lead and man advantage, potentially making it a two goal advantage. Instead, the Pens get a disgustingly unfair powerplay and tie the game.

Add to that Kunitz glaring cross check to Franzen's head that went suspiciously uncalled despite Franzen having just played the puck and the referees almost forced to see the penalty even if they were trying to ignore it.

And finally, making a rather weak interference call on Erickson that Orpik and Gill had committed repeatedly throughout the first two periods without any repercussion in the third period was a heck of a lot to make the Wings overcome.

Granted, our second period should have led to about 2-3 goals that made all of that not matter. But it is digusting to see such an inconsistent bunch of calls in favor of one team having a profound effect on the game.

And now that game 4 is over, you would think time would make it hurt less. But the reality is we earned the win in game 3 if it weren't for referees deciding the game. And to lose tonight would have just been missing out on a sweep. As Penguins fans know very well between this year and last - there is a HUGE difference between 3-1 and 2-2 after game 4. Too bad this year isn't 3-1 like last year, and like the game 3 effort should have made it.

Maybe it sounds petty and living a bit too much in the past. That could be true, but it is also a very justified evaluation of the series.

Derek

P.S. Not a fairweather or losing face - still say Wings in 6. We just need a little rest to get our legs under us and our spirit back. Wouldn't help to get our Hart Trophy candidate back. Wonder where the flightless birds would be without their Hart candidate?

What a freaking sob story. I tried to take the high road by giving both teams their credit as it's been an amazing series to watch. After reading this wahhbaby piss and moan I have to be real - Detroit has carried no more than a single period in each of these games, the rest belonging to the Pens. It's 2-2 and frankly you should be glad it's only that.

I know all about playing better yet still taking the loss - the Pens experienced it in both games 1 & 2. I simply felt each team is playing hard and it was some sad homer BS to be readin how Detroit was the better team despite any scoreboard.

There has not been a single game in this series where Detroit was superior. They played better in a period here and there.. nothing different than what the Pens have done.

When your team is giving up shorthanders you should maybe rethink your whine of how the games have been called.

[BigWinston 15]

If they're the better team (which I don't doubt on paper), then they need to play like it!

At the moment they've played pretty badly this series and are still in with a shout. If they can elevate themselves a little past the horrific display that was game 4 (giving up 3 odd-man rush goals in 5 mins, plus a ton of other sloppy stuff) then they can still win it.

[djt813 0]

What a freaking sob story. I tried to take the high road by giving both teams their credit as it's been an amazing series to watch. After reading this wahhbaby piss and moan I have to be real - Detroit has carried no more than a single period in each of these games, the rest belonging to the Pens. It's 2-2 and frankly you should be glad it's only that.

I know all about playing better yet still taking the loss - the Pens experienced it in both games 1 & 2. I simply felt each team is playing hard and it was some sad homer BS to be readin how Detroit was the better team despite any scoreboard.

There has not been a single game in this series where Detroit was superior. They played better in a period here and there.. nothing different than what the Pens have done.

When your team is giving up shorthanders you should maybe rethink your whine of how the games have been called.

If it is just a whiner sob story, they why were you unable to refute a single point in the argument?

Yes, the Wings have been superior team 3 of the 4 games. They did not dominate, and were not superior at every point in the game. But they did play better in games 1-3. Take game 3 for example - Det outplayed Pit fairly well in the first, Pitt turned tables and carried play in the third pretty well, those periods wash, but Det DOMINATED the second. Net result = Det outplayed Pit in the game.

One shorty does not establish a trend. I'll take all the powerplays I can get as we score on about a quarter of them and have given up one shorty in the entire playoffs.

And you might understand Detroit frustration in the playoffs considering we've been on the short end of most major calls since Anaheim series. Having a valid tying goal with 40 seconds left waived off by a ref who is out of position. Same game's winning goal scored on an Ana PP where Stuart was called for interference for checking a player that had CLEARLY just played the puck. Already being down Lidstrom in the lineup against Chi and having Kronwall called for a major for interference and being kicked out of the game. And I have yet to hear one person of the opinion it was even a minor penalty. Malkin going after Zetterberg at the end of game 2, getting a very appropriate instigator, only to see the league construct a nice sounding explanation to cover their marketing decision to keep Malkin in for game 3. Sorry, but it was not the heat of the moment, Malkin deliberately sought out Z to pummel him - Z didn't do anything that Malkin was responding to. And those are only the biggest highlights, there have been more (admittedly at some point it gets down to nitpicking every little play).

Yes, Pittsburgh has played hard. And they completely deserved to win game 4 last night. We made some terrible errors that they capitalized on. Uncharacteristic, but very stupid mistakes. [by the way, Pitt first goal was scored on an offsides play clearly shown by Eddie O on the Vs broadcast last night - another in the string of us on the short end of the calls.] I can admit when we don't deserve to win, and despite outshooting Pitt we were not the better team. Last night. The previous games, I think we were... but alas it is tied up and now the best of 3. Good luck to the Pens & I hope we can have consistent, fair refereeing for both sides.

[BewareThePenguin 1]

If it is just a whiner sob story, they why were you unable to refute a single point in the argument?

Yes, the Wings have been superior team 3 of the 4 games. They did not dominate, and were not superior at every point in the game. But they did play better in games 1-3. Take game 3 for example - Det outplayed Pit fairly well in the first, Pitt turned tables and carried play in the third pretty well, those periods wash, but Det DOMINATED the second. Net result = Det outplayed Pit in the game.

For the life of me I can't understand how you can claim this. Games 1 and 2 could've gone either way, in Game 1 the Wings scored one goal on a fluke bounce off the boards (a dump, not even a shot) and scored another off a puck that flew in the air and right to Applesauce who couldn't have been luckier to be in the right spot, at the right time. Hardly a statement of total domination there. Game 2 the post god was on the Wings side. Wins yes, deserved fine, but as for them being statements of "superiority" I seriously doubt it.

Game 3 the Wings outplayed the Pens one period. That was the second. The Pens owned the third, when really it matters more.

This "we lost but we're the better team somehow" business never fails to amaze me.

The Pens have been the better team for half this series. I think some people have trouble accepting the fact that they're a better team than they'd originally thought.

Edited June 5, 2009 by BewareThePenguin

[Zack is Great 14]

.... and scored another off a puck that flew in the air and right to Applesauce who couldn't have been luckier to be in the right spot, at the right time. Hardly a statement of total domination there.

I'm sorry, but you can't chalk that up to luck. It was a through and through hockey play.

being in the right spot at the right time isn't luck, it's being a professional hockey player.

[djt813 0]

For the life of me I can't understand how you can claim this. Games 1 and 2 could've gone either way, in Game 1 the Wings scored one goal on a fluke bounce off the boards (a dump, not even a shot) and scored another off a puck that flew in the air and right to Applesauce who couldn't have been luckier to be in the right spot, at the right time. Hardly a statement of total domination there. Game 2 the post god was on the Wings side. Wins yes, deserved fine, but as for them being statements of "superiority" I seriously doubt it.

Game 3 the Wings outplayed the Pens one period. That was the second. The Pens owned the third, when really it matters more.

This "we lost but we're the better team somehow" business never fails to amaze me.

The Pens have been the better team for half this series. I think some people have trouble accepting the fact that they're a better team than they'd originally thought.

Superior and dominate are two completely different concepts. Superior means they were better. That simple. As you said they deserved the wins in games 1 & 2. They were better. I'll stick with that term rather than saying superior.

Game 3 the Wings were better in the first, dominated the second, and the Pens were better in the third. Pens did not dominate the third the way Detroit dominated the second. That adds up to the Wings definitely being the better team. Especially when overcoming some lopsided refereeing that made the Wings job tougher and gave some pretty good breaks to Pitt. I have yet to hear a constructive objection to the refereeing injustice of game 3. I can only imagine how Pitt fans would whine if we had 6 men on the ice for 30 seconds and then got a powerplay goal while we should have been killing off our too-many-men penalty, topped off by a game winning PP goal on interference call that was let go many times throughout the game.

The Pens have been the better team part of the series. I would put it at 35-40% of the series. Not half. Not even after game 4 in which they had a huge 6 minute stretch in the second period that blew the game up. The Wings still managed to carry the play for good portions of the game, if rather ineffectively on the scoreboard.

By the way, Fleury is by far the Pitt MVP in the last two games. Without his stellar goaltending it would have been very different games. He has really stepped up and is quite impressive. Although I suppose there is an element of that to Osgood's role in games 1 and 2.

The "we're better but we lost game three" is neither show business, BS, nor unjustified. Simply an honest evaluation of the factors that led to the outcome. Notice I didn't make that argument for game 4. And I haven't whined about the refs blown offsides call on the Pens first goal in the overall outcome - even though subtracting that and the empty netter would leave us tied 2-2! I just didn't think we had the jump & desire, it was obvious Pens were hungrier for game 4 victory.

[djt813 0]

I'm sorry, but you can't chalk that up to luck. It was a through and through hockey play.

being in the right spot at the right time isn't luck, it's being a professional hockey player.

Right on. If that is just luck then so are half of the goals in hockey. He followed the play while Staal (I think it was Jordan) didn't have a clue where it went. And he buried it.

The game 2 Abdelkader goal was a good bit of luck, but it happens. God knows we've sufferred several bad goals.

[djt813 0]

So the reff's have missed some calls on the Pen's a peewee ref should have seen. They've missed some on the Wings too. Off the top of my head, 2 high sticks on Stall, and one of them gave him a bloody nose so it would have been a double minor. Guess the refs stope game 2 from the Pens.....

And as far as getting screwed by the schedule and the wings being tired, the Pens have played the basically the same schedule. Sure they had an extra day of rest before the finals started, but if the Wings sweep the hawks, then they get an extra day of rest instead. The Pens have actually played one more game than the Wings this post season.

As far as how would the pens be with out Malkin or Crosby? No one claimed they could win without one of those too. But arent the Wings suppose to be the deepest team in the NHL? If they're so deep, why is Datsuyk so important to the team then?

If high stick on Staal is the best you can come up with - keep trying. Staal's bloody nose came from him running into the top end of Ozzie's goalie stick. Not a high stick, just Staal forechecking and running into it. No penalty. Have another suggestion?

Any team, even Detroit and its depth, will miss the best defensive forward in the game and one of the best offensive players. Especially deep in the playoffs. Whether we can win without him or not - I think we can, but it brings us down closer to other teams skill level. It is a definitive yes we can win when he is in the lineup - no one can hang with the Wings full roster.

Edited June 5, 2009 by djt813

[BewareThePenguin 1]

If high stick on Staal is the best you can come up with - keep trying. Staal's bloody nose came from him running into the top end of Ozzie's goalie stick. Not a high stick, just Staal forechecking and running into it. No penalty. Have another suggestion?

Well since you brought up the refs in both your posts, ok then... the Pens got away with 2-many men, which I admitted in a post (which got yanked so I guess you probably didn't see it). But again, you see only one side.

In game 3, the Wings got away with a blatant pick on their PP goal -- which should have ended with a penalty (even the announcers called them out for this, did you not have the sound on?). Instead the refs let them play on, and Detroit scored.

In game 2, Samuellson picked Malkin, again presenting a wide open lane for a Wings player to shoot, and score.

Two of the most blatant non calls of the series. Unlike the too-many men non-call, which didn't lead to a score.

All 4 of these games could've gone either way. So right there, you can't say Detroit "dominated" or was "superior." Just that they won a couple. Of the 4 games, last night's was the closest to a one-sided affair.

P.S. I love the Staal rationalization. Kind of like the wife who ran into her husband's fist.

Edited June 5, 2009 by BewareThePenguin

[Mcquade 0]

If it is just a whiner sob story, they why were you unable to refute a single point in the argument?

Not unable to refute - I just chose not to.

It's not necessary to respond to the whining over the calls/no calls. Each team's fans have seen their share for sure. Usually the ones still talking about it are the same ones completely ignorant to what happens on the other side. It's a never ending cycle of bickering and whining. As a Pens fan I could cry bloody murder over the quick whistles Osgood gets - last night they blew one for him with the puck still flat in the crease untouched. OMG!! Shoulda woulda coulda right???

Point it each team is playing through their share of the BS - it's the NHL afterall. Players on both sides experience it.

No team is being jobbed over the other. These have been great games. Having the cup in hand is a great feeling.. but watching the journey there is even better. Take off the homer goggles and start enjoying the action. I did last year even though I wasn't particularly happy with the outcome.

[BewareThePenguin 1]

Any team, even Detroit and its depth, will miss the best defensive forward in the game and one of the best offensive players. Especially deep in the playoffs. Whether we can win without him or not - I think we can, but it brings us down closer to other teams skill level. It is a definitive yes we can win when he is in the lineup - no one can hang with the Wings full roster.

One more thing and I promise to move on.

Before the playoffs, all the talk was that the Pens were just another Eastern Conference patsy and no prob to handle, regardless of who was in the lineup or not. After all the Wings had that incredible depth, deepest team in the league and all that etc.

Now you have an out after a loss -- play the injury card. I find this assumption rather unfounded, and frankly disappointing that you'd resort to it.

There's another thread here about "No Datsyuk No Cup" which I don't agree with -- it says to me "if we lose we can say we're still better because we all KNOW we'd win with him, and of course, leaves the door open for chest beating just in case we do pull it out." A tidy, quaint, no-lose situation.

Maybe the "other team's skill level" was a little underestimated here? Just a thought.

Edited June 5, 2009 by BewareThePenguin

[BewareThePenguin 1]

As a Pens fan I could cry bloody murder over the quick whistles Osgood gets - last night they blew one for him with the puck still flat in the crease untouched.

I caught that one too.

That was screamed about on the Pens boards, you're probably the first to mention it here. I'm sure.