Red Wings are the superior team despite loss

[BewareThePenguin 1]

This series has been close - until last night that is

Show me where I said that. I did feel last night was the CLOSEST to a one-sided affair, but that's as far as I went.

Go back to where I said it's been an even series so far, OK? Thanks.

[BewareThePenguin 1]

Easy there Tiger...

What I'm saying is that this series is close - as in both teams are playing to the best of their abilities, and we're seeing some great competition, and close games in which either team could potentially have been the winner - that is until last night where the Wings got blown out (dunno if they really even showed up to play).

No need to be so defensive; not all of us Wings fans wear rose-colored glasses

I hear ya.

It's just that I've been a bit "misrepresented" in some of my quotes and views from some posters here, so pardon me if I sometimes go into set-record-straight mode. I assure you it's in the best spirit of debate.

[djt813 0]

Not unable to refute - I just chose not to.

It's not necessary to respond to the whining over the calls/no calls. Each team's fans have seen their share for sure. Usually the ones still talking about it are the same ones completely ignorant to what happens on the other side. It's a never ending cycle of bickering and whining. As a Pens fan I could cry bloody murder over the quick whistles Osgood gets - last night they blew one for him with the puck still flat in the crease untouched. OMG!! Shoulda woulda coulda right???

Point it each team is playing through their share of the BS - it's the NHL afterall. Players on both sides experience it.

No team is being jobbed over the other. These have been great games. Having the cup in hand is a great feeling.. but watching the journey there is even better. Take off the homer goggles and start enjoying the action. I did last year even though I wasn't particularly happy with the outcome.

Point taken. I do realize everyone gets good and bad calls. I don't think any team is intentionally jobbed. I am not normally one to whine endlessly about officiating. I know we get away with some uncalled penalties, I know we benefit from some weak and blown calls on the opposition. Usually it balances out. But this year has not been balanced - all the big blown calls seem to line up squarely on the other side of the fence.

I'm not sure quick whistles on Osgood are enough to scream bloody murder over - is it really comparable to 30 seconds of 6 attackers and getting slammed with a PP goal against? Maybe, I don't really know. I don't see the whistles as quick - but I realize my glasses are a bit red and yours are a bit yellow and we frequesntly will not interpret the same play the same way.

Glad to see there are passionate Pens fans that can have good discussion - as opposed to some fans that visit other teams boards just to talk trash and drop expletive laden wishes. Hope Wings fans are behaving similarly well on your forums.

[Pens25 0]

Wow, you're team manages to pull off a win in your arena--when Wings decided not to show up, and now you wish to act all high and mighty. I hope your team has this same attitude as you do. Just remember, the series is only tied. Pens still have to win at the Joe, and that ain't gonna happen. I've been saying since the series started, Wings in 6. So far, so right.

I'd tone it down a bit there, champ. Don't wanna jinx your team (not that it really matters).

By the way, Crosby should have been a diver, not a hockey player. Pathetic!

EDIT: I called this too... I said if Pens found a way to steal game 4, prepare for the trolls... they are gonna come in flocks. Again I was right.

What does the Pens pulling out a win at the Igloo have to do with my arguement? I dont feel my post was "all high and mighty." I responded to a posted that basically claimed the refs cost the wings game 3, and generally speaking, made a few excuses for the Wings 2 losses. I simply came back with that if the refs cost the Wings game 3, then it could be argued that they cost the Pens game 2. Simply pointed out that there have been missed calls both ways. Not even gonna address the diving issue.

I agree with you 100%.

All of us have been preaching that we are far deeper than the Pens, and that we can still win without Datsyuk, UNTIL NOW. I still think we're deeper, but we are gassed, and that's the difference.

The refs have been bad both ways in this series. It's arguable that it might haave cost the wings game 3 if they had gotten the too many men call and scored onit, but that's a WHAT IF and there's no guarentee we woulda scored there anyways. In fact, given we're like 1 for 12 or whatever, I'd say we probably wouldn't have scored.

The Pens should be given credit. They're playing like they want it more, and the wings are playing like they're completely gassed and want no part of it. The pens should be given alot of credit for hanging in there. They faced another 2-0 deficit in the series and had a 3% chance of winning it based on history.

We'll see how game 5 goes.

One thing to note, not so much the refs, but the linesmen. They have been absolutely atrocious in the SCF. Usually the refs make almost no mistakes, but this series they have missed alot of off side plays...really they were bad in the Chicago series as well.

I agree that the Wings are the deeper team. Top to Bottom, you guys have more talent, but i think alot of the Pens are underrated. This series is far from over, but the Wings have to start playing like im used to seeing them. To me, it seems like they chasing the puck more this year. They just dont seem to be able to maintain the same level of puck possession i remember from last year. If anyone can come back from being down 2-0, its the Pens, especially with the way Crosby and Malkin are playing. Crosby may not be getting the points, but it's not from lack of trying. It's from his teammates not burying the puck when he sets them up.

The reffing has been awful all Post season. I'd like to see more penalties called both ways. There is no excuse for anyone missing the 6men on the ice. Cooke's hit the Holmstram's head in game 3 was up there too (may have the players wrong on that one)

[Snazzy 0]

I am really surprised that the Penguin fans have the gull to bring up a late whistle when Wings also got jobbed out of a late whistle at a crucial point in the second. Jebus!

[87to71 0]

They made a comment last night that this is the least penalized finals in the last 60 years. And Wings fans were the ones at the start of this series who were saying as long as the refs dont decide the outcome everything will be fine. Wouldnt you know it the Wings fans are the ones crying about the refs and not getting enough calls after 4 games. Correct me if Im wrong but didnt the Wings have 4 power plays to the Pens 2 last night?? And gave up a short handed goal too?? There are some very smart intelligent Wings fans on this site but for the ones that still keep saying that Chicago and Anaheim are still better then the Penguins are just flat out dumb. Ive even had a few Wings fans on here post me in private messages and they know who they are that anybody who says that anymore is just flat out blind...

[Cern 0]

They made a comment last night that this is the least penalized finals in the last 60 years. And Wings fans were the ones at the start of this series who were saying as long as the refs dont decide the outcome everything will be fine. Wouldnt you know it the Wings fans are the ones crying about the refs and not getting enough calls after 4 games. Correct me if Im wrong but didnt the Wings have 4 power plays to the Pens 2 last night?? And gave up a short handed goal too?? There are some very smart intelligent Wings fans on this site but for the ones that still keep saying that Chicago and Anaheim are still better then the Penguins are just flat out dumb. Ive even had a few Wings fans on here post me in private messages and they know who they are that anybody who says that anymore is just flat out blind...

You still haven't won anything. Perhaps you should take some basic math before calling other people stupid. Arrogance goes both ways.

[87to71 0]

You still haven't won anything. Perhaps you should take some basic math before calling other people stupid. Arrogance goes both ways.

I know this series is far from over man believe me. I know how good the Wings are and how the Penguins are going to have to be at the top of their game to beat them in 2 of the possible next 3 games...I can say the samething about the Wings as well. If they continue to keep doing the things they have been doing such as turning the puck over, the Pens being more physical, and guys like Hossa not scoring they will have a very hard time winning this series...I love how people just assumed cause Hossa had huge games 4's against the Jackets,Ducks,and Hawks that it was an absolute lock that he was going to light the Pens up last night and score 3 or 4 goals...There is a lot of pressure on Hossa right now if you ask me to start producing in this Final based on his comments he made when he went to the Wings...

[thedatsyukian 7]

I love how all these pens fans show up after victories. Anyways. The red wings are the superior team whether the pens fans want to believe it or not but not in their current state. We are missing our selke winner, leading point getter, top +-, power play anchor, and hart trophy candidate player. All while our captain is just coming off an injury yet we are still managing to hang in this series. Obviously a loss is a loss is a loss. However, in reality, Pittsburgh should have won both of these games and they did so.

[djt813 0]

Well since you brought up the refs in both your posts, ok then... the Pens got away with 2-many men, which I admitted in a post (which got yanked so I guess you probably didn't see it). But again, you see only one side.

In game 3, the Wings got away with a blatant pick on their PP goal -- which should have ended with a penalty (even the announcers called them out for this, did you not have the sound on?). Instead the refs let them play on, and Detroit scored.

In game 2, Samuellson picked Malkin, again presenting a wide open lane for a Wings player to shoot, and score.

Two of the most blatant non calls of the series. Unlike the too-many men non-call, which didn't lead to a score.

All 4 of these games could've gone either way. So right there, you can't say Detroit "dominated" or was "superior." Just that they won a couple. Of the 4 games, last night's was the closest to a one-sided affair.

P.S. I love the Staal rationalization. Kind of like the wife who ran into her husband's fist.

Not even remotely the most blatant non calls - that is reserved for Crosby's cross check to Zetterberg's head in game 1, Kunitz's cross check to Franzen's head in game 2 or 3, and the too many men on the ice. All three are quite obviously more blatant than debating what is or is not a pick.

Not that I am arguing whether they were picks, I think you are fairly calling it out. I agree we have gotten away with some picks. But they have happenned in the Pittsburgh end also. There is no significant pick advantage for Detroit, both teams are picking as much as the refs will let them get away with. To say that may have cost Pittsburgh game 2 is unfair.

The too many men did lead to a goal, as the Pens got a power play a minute later upon which they scored. They should have been killing a penalty, not scoring on the PP.

Agree all four could have gone either way. Game 1 & 2 obviously could have. I think we played better, but not remotely one sided or enough to keep a couple breaks from having turned the outcome. Game 3 I thought was more in our favor for longer stretches and definitely could have gone (or should have gone) the other way. Game 4 maybe could have gone another way, but agree with you that it was the most one sided game of the series and was pretty well in Pittsburgh's pocket from mid-second period on.

As for the Staal "rationalization" - well that's just ridiculous. A high stick requires the blade of the stick to be up high hitting him in the face. Ozzie's blace was below his shins. Staal was trying to get around Ozzie while playing the puck and the top of the shaft of the stick hit him in the face. No high stick cuz the stick ain't high.

[djt813 0]

I love how all these pens fans show up after victories. Anyways. The red wings are the superior team whether the pens fans want to believe it or not but not in their current state. We are missing our selke winner, leading point getter, top +-, power play anchor, and hart trophy candidate player. All while our captain is just coming off an injury yet we are still managing to hang in this series. Obviously a loss is a loss is a loss. However, in reality, Pittsburgh should have won both of these games and they did so.

Without Datsyuk - or for that matter Zetterberg or perhaps Hossa - we are competitive. That's where the depth comes in. We're no longer obviously better. With our top guns we are obviously better. Look forward to some rest and a better effort in game 5, as they certainly didn't bring it last night. Yes, win is a win and loss is a loss. Pitt should have and did win game 4. They did not earn game 3 on their merits alone.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I love how all these pens fans show up after victories. Anyways. The red wings are the superior team whether the pens fans want to believe it or not but not in their current state. We are missing our selke winner, leading point getter, top +-, power play anchor, and hart trophy candidate player. All while our captain is just coming off an injury yet we are still managing to hang in this series. Obviously a loss is a loss is a loss. However, in reality, Pittsburgh should have won both of these games and they did so.

QFT

It amazes me that even pens fans would be so dense as to act as if the injury of Dats should just be ignored when discussing which team is superior. Drop their Hart finalist and I'm sure they wouldn't feel that way. Don't get me wrong the Wings have to find a way to get it done even if Dats can't make it back but if they were sitting tied after 4 games and Malkin hadn't played they would be bragging about it and claiming that they would be ahead if he had been playing.

[Pens25 0]

As for the Staal "rationalization" - well that's just ridiculous. A high stick requires the blade of the stick to be up high hitting him in the face. Ozzie's blace was below his shins. Staal was trying to get around Ozzie while playing the puck and the top of the shaft of the stick hit him in the face. No high stick cuz the stick ain't high.

60.1 High-sticking - A “high stick†is one which is carried above the height of the opponent’s shoulders. Players and goalkeepers must be in control and responsible for their stick. However, a player or goalkeeper is permitted accidental contact on an opponent if the act is committed as a normal windup or follow through of a shooting motion. A wild swing at a bouncing puck would not be considered a normal windup or follow through and any contact to an opponent above the height of the shoulders shall be penalized accordingly.

60.2 Minor Penalty - Any contact made by a stick on an opponent above the shoulders is prohibited and a minor penalty shall be imposed.

The rule does not specify that it needs to be the blade of the stick. Maybe I am reading the rule wrong, but i understand it as any part of the stick making contact with the head is illegal assuming it is not part of a normal shooting motion.

[thedatsyukian 7]

60.1 High-sticking - A “high stick†is one which is carried above the height of the opponent’s shoulders. Players and goalkeepers must be in control and responsible for their stick. However, a player or goalkeeper is permitted accidental contact on an opponent if the act is committed as a normal windup or follow through of a shooting motion. A wild swing at a bouncing puck would not be considered a normal windup or follow through and any contact to an opponent above the height of the shoulders shall be penalized accordingly.

60.2 Minor Penalty - Any contact made by a stick on an opponent above the shoulders is prohibited and a minor penalty shall be imposed.

The rule does not specify that it needs to be the blade of the stick. Maybe I am reading the rule wrong, but i understand it as any part of the stick making contact with the head is illegal assuming it is not part of a normal shooting motion.

[djt813 0]

60.1 High-sticking - A “high stick†is one which is carried above the height of the opponent’s shoulders. Players and goalkeepers must be in control and responsible for their stick. However, a player or goalkeeper is permitted accidental contact on an opponent if the act is committed as a normal windup or follow through of a shooting motion. A wild swing at a bouncing puck would not be considered a normal windup or follow through and any contact to an opponent above the height of the shoulders shall be penalized accordingly.

60.2 Minor Penalty - Any contact made by a stick on an opponent above the shoulders is prohibited and a minor penalty shall be imposed.

The rule does not specify that it needs to be the blade of the stick. Maybe I am reading the rule wrong, but i understand it as any part of the stick making contact with the head is illegal assuming it is not part of a normal shooting motion.

I guess I was pointing out the blade vs the top of the stick because it wasn't follow through of Ozzie swinging his stick that caused the shot to the head. It was truly Staal skating into the top of the stick held (relatively!) still on the forecheck. Goalies hold their sticks with just the one hand in the middle, so the top sticks up where the contact was made. But the contact was not caused by wildly swinging or a follow through of a shooting motion.

It's happened to lots of players (ours included) and is pretty much the danger/cost of trying to be aggressive on the forecheck.

EDIT - Also, the rule states the stick is carried over the opponents shoulder - an action bringing your stick up to the level of the face. If Ozzie had lifted even the top shaft part with the intention of hitting Staal I would buy your argument. But he just brush the puck along away from the next and never lifted his stick above his knees much less shoulders.

Edited June 5, 2009 by djt813

[thedatsyukian 7]

Out of his post, is that really the play that you want to debate about? Why not pick a topic of even minor importance? Or are we just looking for an argument on the Detroit boards?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

They made a comment last night that this is the least penalized finals in the last 60 years. And Wings fans were the ones at the start of this series who were saying as long as the refs dont decide the outcome everything will be fine. Wouldnt you know it the Wings fans are the ones crying about the refs and not getting enough calls after 4 games. Correct me if Im wrong but didnt the Wings have 4 power plays to the Pens 2 last night?? And gave up a short handed goal too?? There are some very smart intelligent Wings fans on this site but for the ones that still keep saying that Chicago and Anaheim are still better then the Penguins are just flat out dumb. Ive even had a few Wings fans on here post me in private messages and they know who they are that anybody who says that anymore is just flat out blind...

Pittsburgh are much, much better then Chicago. Anaheim is a different story. They may not be a better team, but they'd beat Pittsburgh in a playoff series. Getzlaf, Perry and Ryan are hard to stop, and Jordan Staal couldnt handle a big man like Getzlaf. They'd have sucess against the Selanne line, but the Marchant line would easily shutdown Crosby/Malkin whichever was pinned against them. Anaheims defence would stiffle the hell out of Pittsburgh, considering Crosby and Malkin are amazing down low and scoring/passing/creating from in close to the net, it'd be tough for them. They'd see little rebounds, Anaheims defence is that good. Goaltending is closer, because Fleury can be great, or he can be terrible, Hiller was kind of the same. It'd be tight, but I'd put money on Anaheim winning, consider I absolutely hate Anaheim.

[Mcquade 0]

Pittsburgh are much, much better then Chicago. Anaheim is a different story. They may not be a better team, but they'd beat Pittsburgh in a playoff series. Getzlaf, Perry and Ryan are hard to stop, and Jordan Staal couldnt handle a big man like Getzlaf. They'd have sucess against the Selanne line, but the Marchant line would easily shutdown Crosby/Malkin whichever was pinned against them. Anaheims defence would stiffle the hell out of Pittsburgh, considering Crosby and Malkin are amazing down low and scoring/passing/creating from in close to the net, it'd be tough for them. They'd see little rebounds, Anaheims defence is that good. Goaltending is closer, because Fleury can be great, or he can be terrible, Hiller was kind of the same. It'd be tight, but I'd put money on Anaheim winning, consider I absolutely hate Anaheim.

I agree the Ducks may have been a bad match up for us. Plus all that traveling from Pa to Cali. Wings and Ducks are the only set of teams who worried me from your 2nd round though. Pretty nice you 2 had to face each other.

I feel your pain from the battle in that series. I thought that was how our Carolina games would go. Was a big surprise to see Ward melt like that. For the Pens getting through Varlamov was a heart attack waiting to happen. The kid played lights out against us up to game 7. Pens have been pretty determined ever since getting down to the Caps 0-2. All I can say about this season is thank you Disco Dan! He's the fit at coach this team was build for.