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Tatonka

Questions about Hossa and Pittsburg

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Second day, but the Pens had from the end of the season (or, ostensibly, the second they traded for him) to negotiate with him exclusively. I honestly have a hard time seeing who the Pens "missed out on" by waiting for Hossa, even though Shero was negotiating with multiple players simultaneously. There's no way they were going to offer anything close to what Tampa offered Malone, and most of the other Pens to leave were inconsequential. Ask a Pens fan to identify which players the Pens didn't/couldn't sign because Hossa "led them on." Their silence is your hint that you won the argument.

As an ancillary point, the Pens would be in absolute cap hell if they had signed Hossa, and they would've lost Staal.

What it boils down to is that Hossa played very well for the team, meshed with Crosby better than anyone else has to date (he who makes everyone around him better sure has a difficult time finding someone he's comfortable with), and Pens fans are angry that he didn't stay with their Golden Boy because, in their minds, it's every hockey player's dream to play on Crosby's line.

People have spent a year and thousands of words trying to convey what you just did in a couple paragraphs. Pitt is a very good team so I'd have to say there was more to Hossa leaving than a better chance at a cup. I think using the cup was easier for him to say than what may have been the real reasons for leaving. Of course I'm guessing but that's my take on it.

Hossa chose another team over theirs and they got butt hurt. Now I can't say I wouldn't feel the same, I'm a fan after all and fans are the most irrational people on earth.

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I'm talking about before when he made that statement, "I'll take a little less to stay on a winning team." It was a tad misleading. Their management planned as if Hossa was going re-sign while he was on the phone with the Wings wondering if he could fit into their roster. Of course, it's not Hossa's fault if the management didn't exactly understand that Hossa didn't specify PIT as the certain team in that public statement. But because Hossa played so well alongside Crosby, he was in quite the position of power because they had tried for years to find someone who could play on Sid's wing. I'm not saying Hossa deserves this or that, but he (or probably his agent) wasn't exactly honest about his intentions.

You could just shrug it off and say, "Well, that's business," but he still didn't exactly do all the right things and if that had happened to the Wings while they were in a rebuilding phase then we would be upset too.

Yeah, I know what you mean but the thing to me is that they had the exclusive rights to negotiate with him up until July 1st. Assuming that they don't negotiate during the playoffs they had from the time that the playoffs ended until July 1st to get a commitment out of him and there should have been nothing to discuss on July 1st. For them they had almost a month to try to hammer out a deal, if they had one in place there is no reason to not sign it first thing in the morning July 1st, if they did not have an agreement in place after almost a month (and with full knowledge that he would be able to sign or explore offers elsewhere - which is really the only reason for him to have not signed as soon as July 1st rolled around unless they thought he was just doing it for leverage in which case they should have known he might leave). I just don't get how there is that much of a problem.

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Just wondering if I am even right in that respect. Pitt didnt make any big moves at the trade deadline either this year did they? was that a money issue as well?

Maybe this (depends on your definition of "big"). From: Pittsburgh Live.

Winger Miroslav Satan has been placed on waivers today by the Penguins. He has 24 hours to clear. If he does not, the Penguins are free to send him to the AHL, where is salary would not count against the NHL's $56.7 million.

Satan signed a one-year, $3.5 million deal with the Penguins as a free agent this summer. He scored his 17th goal Sunday in a win Dallas - his third goal in seven games since interim coach Dan Bylsma replaced Michel Therrien on Feb. 15.

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I think your thoughts on the Pens fans are wrong.

The playoffs ended on 6/4.

Hossa was quoted on 6/7 stating he would take less money to get the Cup. link

Hossa told the Pens he was checking out his free agency options on 6/21. link

Also of note in the article from 6/21. Shero is noted as saying that the offer from the Pens is subject to change if they start committing money to other contracts before Hossa signs. That doesn't sound like they thought he was going to stay. It sounds like they were going with the Holland/Franzen/Hossa process. Whoever signs first, etc etc.

Free agency didn't start until 7/1.

Hossa signed with the Wings at lunchtime of the second day of free agency. link

The signs were there for a week and a half that he was going elsewhere. If the Pens management couldn't get their brains around that, then they're idiots. If the Pens management was that concerned, they certainly could have given him a deadline to respond to their offer(s). However, they didn't. So, by this logic, shouldn't Pens fans be mad at Pens management instead of Hossa?

Pens fans aren't really mad at Hossa for leaving. They're mad at the way he left.

By the time Hossa made a decision, most of the other good free agents already had contracts, thus leaving PIT with players that weren't their first or second options.

Now, you could say that Shero should've enforced a deadline on Hossa, but come on. Hossa in their eyes was perfect on Crosby's wing. They had struggled for years to find linemates for Sid and finally they had someone who can play with him. Wouldn't you take that risk of waiting for him?

Thing is, no one wants to ask this question and I don't know why, but why is it so difficult for their management to find players who can play alongside Crosby? They're having cattle call auditions for him while Malkin seems to fit with mostly everybody they've put next to him.

Edited by FireCaptain

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From where I sit, it was Hossa's attitude that got people riled up. He just completed a Cup run with a young and talented team that by all indication would be making many more Cup runs. Instead of seeing the potential in the team, he opted to go with a Detroit team that many feel was aging beyond the ability to make the same runs. It looked as if he traded long term success and hard work for a short-term shot at glory.

Things might have been different if the Pens were a sub .500 team and he was trying to get a Cup before he retired and didn't see it happening in Pittsburgh (ala Tony Gonzales of the KC Chiefs)

Now before I get shelled, this is what the perception was.

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From where I sit, it was Hossa's attitude that got people riled up. He just completed a Cup run with a young and talented team that by all indication would be making many more Cup runs. Instead of seeing the potential in the team, he opted to go with a Detroit team that many feel was aging beyond the ability to make the same runs. It looked as if he traded long term success and hard work for a short-term shot at glory.

Things might have been different if the Pens were a sub .500 team and he was trying to get a Cup before he retired and didn't see it happening in Pittsburgh (ala Tony Gonzales of the KC Chiefs)

Now before I get shelled, this is what the perception was.

Didn't Pittsburgh only retain one of their UFAs when all was said and done?

It seemed to me he realized that a certain number of people in the locker room would be leaving and as a result, the direction of where the team was headed wasn't clear.

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Didn't Pittsburgh only retain one of their UFAs when all was said and done?

It seemed to me he realized that a certain number of people in the locker room would be leaving and as a result, the direction of where the team was headed wasn't clear.

I guess you could make a case that Malone's certain departure made the team less effective looking in front of the net. I would figure it was more than that for Hossa. The cocah might have been a factor too. The casual fan wouldn't see deeper than Hossa dumping the Pens for another team and feeling betrayed. As you know, the casual fan gets quoted and repeated more than the ones who know better.

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The signs were there for a week and a half that he was going elsewhere. If the Pens management couldn't get their brains around that, then they're idiots. If the Pens management was that concerned, they certainly could have given him a deadline to respond to their offer(s). However, they didn't. So, by this logic, shouldn't Pens fans be mad at Pens management instead of Hossa?

I love how you Detroit fans think you know the Pens' situation better than Pens fans do.

Oh we should be blaming our own team now? Why -- for believing Hossa's bullcrap he spouted about how he wanted to stay a Penguin, until the last possible minute?

From the Trib article you linked above.

But I'm glad Pittsburgh got me here. This was a fun journey for myself, and a great experience. I hope I can stick with a great team like this. ...

That was Hoser's line the whole way through, until the end, when suddenly he was all about going to Detroit, 'cause you know, time was running out and he felt he wanted to be where he could win the Cup. Til he pulled the rug from out under the Pens.

Face it Wings fans -- Hossa acted like a jerk, no matter how much you want to defend the guy 'cause he plays on your side now. Pens fans have a legit beef with him -- not team management who acted in good faith with his stated desire to stay with the team.

If this Judas had done this to your team, you'd be acting the same way. Gimmee a break with the apologist behavior for this bs'ing traitor.

Edited by BewareThePenguin

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From where I sit, it was Hossa's attitude that got people riled up. He just completed a Cup run with a young and talented team that by all indication would be making many more Cup runs. Instead of seeing the potential in the team, he opted to go with a Detroit team that many feel was aging beyond the ability to make the same runs. It looked as if he traded long term success and hard work for a short-term shot at glory.

Things might have been different if the Pens were a sub .500 team and he was trying to get a Cup before he retired and didn't see it happening in Pittsburgh (ala Tony Gonzales of the KC Chiefs)

Now before I get shelled, this is what the perception was.

No, you've summed it up about perfectly.

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Pens fans = Hossa's jealous ex-girlfriends

Nothing like someone with the arrogance to tell Pens fans they have no business feeling a certain way.

That applies whether you're trying to take the "logical" approach with quotes and numbers all that, or this guy who's trying the ha-ha route.

Hosser = Jerk. That applies whether he gets to lift the Cup or not.

"Jealous exes"? Nah. Plenty of players have left the Pens. None have ever left with as little class, like Hoser did.

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I love how you Detroit fans think you know the Pens' situation better than Pens fans do.

Oh we should be blaming our own team now? Why -- for believing Hossa's bullcrap he spouted about how he wanted to stay a Penguin, until the last possible minute?

From the Trib article you linked above.

That was Hoser's line the whole way through, until the end, when suddenly he was all about going to Detroit, 'cause you know, time was running out and he felt he wanted to be where he could win the Cup. Til he pulled the rug from out under the Pens.

Face it Wings fans -- Hossa acted like a jerk, no matter how much you want to defend the guy 'cause he plays on your side now. Pens fans have a legit beef with him -- not team management who acted in good faith with his stated desire to stay with the team.

If this Judas had done this to your team, you'd be acting the same way. Gimmee a break with the apologist behavior for this bs'ing traitor.

You're absolutely right that he would've been booed by Wings fans if the situations had been reversed, but that's not really helpful here. The point isn't that Penguins fans shouldn't be upset--they should be. The point that gets missed is WHY they should be upset:

People call Hossa a "mercenary", but that term couldn't be further from the truth. Apart from the fact that Hossa willingly requested to come to Detroit but never "chose" Pittsburgh to be his team, a mercenary is a person who does things for money with no concern with principle. Clearly, Hossa has principles...he wanted to win a Cup, especially after suffering in Atlanta. And by taking less money to win said Cup, he is by no means being a mercenary.

But the part that REALLY hurts Pens fans is that you're only supposed to ask off of your current team to go to a contender if you're on a team that has no chance of winning . The Pens obviously are a contender for the Cup and will continue to be for many years, but Hossa left that situation anyway because he felt like the Wings were a significantly better organization. I don't dislike the Pens, really, and I think they're good for the NHL, but it's THAT message that Hossa was sending them that is really hitting home. And it's not a message that's usually sent when you're talking about a team (the Pens) that are only two wins away from the Stanley Cup (even if Detroit only needs one).

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I readn an article (back when Hos just signed with the Wings) that credited Kopecky with the signing. Tomas works out with Hossa in the off season (countrymen) and told Hos about how great the wings organization is. How wonderful it is to play here, the commitment to the players and to winning. Hossa cited that as one of the reasons he wanted to become a red wing. He has a friend here who he wanted to skate with.

No one faulted scott niedermayer for signing with the ducks so he could win a cup with his brother. I just don't understand why Pens fans are mad that a rental left. We lost big bert, kyle calder, an others and we have a team that contends each year (just like Berg right now) yet we could not keep some players. (We may not have wanted them but still) :)

Hossa went to the wings because he wanted to skate with his friend, he wanted to learn the championship skills from an experienced team and he likely wanted to escape therrien!

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You're absolutely right that he would've been booed by Wings fans if the situations had been reversed, but that's not really helpful here. The point isn't that Penguins fans shouldn't be upset--they should be. The point that gets missed is WHY they should be upset:

People call Hossa a "mercenary", but that term couldn't be further from the truth. Apart from the fact that Hossa willingly requested to come to Detroit but never "chose" Pittsburgh to be his team, a mercenary is a person who does things for money with no concern with principle. Clearly, Hossa has principles...he wanted to win a Cup, especially after suffering in Atlanta. And by taking less money to win said Cup, he is by no means being a mercenary.

But the part that REALLY hurts Pens fans is that you're only supposed to ask off of your current team to go to a contender if you're on a team that has no chance of winning . The Pens obviously are a contender for the Cup and will continue to be for many years, but Hossa left that situation anyway because he felt like the Wings were a significantly better organization. I don't dislike the Pens, really, and I think they're good for the NHL, but it's THAT message that Hossa was sending them that is really hitting home. And it's not a message that's usually sent when you're talking about a team (the Pens) that are only two wins away from the Stanley Cup (even if Detroit only needs one).

I never called Hossa a mercenary. He could go to Ottawa for all I care, for all the money in the world. That would be fine.

Again -- it wasn't THAT Hossa left, it was HOW he left. Instead of just going, he hung around til the last minute, leaving the Pens hanging themselves -- which affected their subsequent free-agent signings. PLUS the fact that Hossa couldn't just leave, no he had to announce to the city why he was doing so, just for an extra little rub-in on the way out. Capisce?

You admit yourself Hossa wasn't leaving some sub-.500 team either.

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I readn an article (back when Hos just signed with the Wings) that credited Kopecky with the signing. Tomas works out with Hossa in the off season (countrymen) and told Hos about how great the wings organization is. How wonderful it is to play here, the commitment to the players and to winning. Hossa cited that as one of the reasons he wanted to become a red wing. He has a friend here who he wanted to skate with.

No one faulted scott niedermayer for signing with the ducks so he could win a cup with his brother. I just don't understand why Pens fans are mad that a rental left. We lost big bert, kyle calder, an others and we have a team that contends each year (just like Berg right now) yet we could not keep some players. (We may not have wanted them but still) :)

Hossa went to the wings because he wanted to skate with his friend, he wanted to learn the championship skills from an experienced team and he likely wanted to escape therrien!

Did Niedermayer announce to his ex-team and their fans "so long suckers, I'm going to where I really have a chance to win the Cup? Nyahhh!" or take negotiations to the last possible minute, just to screw up his old team's FA signings?

Get back to me on that one.

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I love how you Detroit fans think you know the Pens' situation better than Pens fans do.

Oh we should be blaming our own team now? Why -- for believing Hossa's bullcrap he spouted about how he wanted to stay a Penguin, until the last possible minute?

From the Trib article you linked above.

That was Hoser's line the whole way through, until the end, when suddenly he was all about going to Detroit, 'cause you know, time was running out and he felt he wanted to be where he could win the Cup. Til he pulled the rug from out under the Pens.

Face it Wings fans -- Hossa acted like a jerk, no matter how much you want to defend the guy 'cause he plays on your side now. Pens fans have a legit beef with him -- not team management who acted in good faith with his stated desire to stay with the team.

If this Judas had done this to your team, you'd be acting the same way. Gimmee a break with the apologist behavior for this bs'ing traitor.

I feel the need to inform you of a couple of things.

1. NHL rules restrict any teams from talking to potential free agents until their current contracts expire. A team can request permission from the current contract holder for special permission (usually give up a draft pick for this chance) but that is the rule. This means that Hossa not signing before July 1st meant nothing to the Pens. They could not talk to anyone until July 1st so the delay cost them nothing.

2. What someone says to media and the truth is always different. "He has an upper body injury", "I will not change my lines", have you never seen a press conference? Coaches, players and everyone uses the media to get a message out, hide a truth, or misguide the other team. Anything for the edge. In this case Hossa likely wanted to return to Berg but was hoping for a chance to join his friend in Detroit. It is not selfish to want to skate with a good friend. I promise you (without any proof, so grains of salt are all over) Hossa told the Pens management long before July 1st that he was thinking about leaving. Pens Management knew that Hossa wanted to play on Detroit during the trade deadline when he tried to get traded there. The Pens were aware of his desire to skate with Tomas. You have seen the good trades the Pens management has made, they are not stupid. The knew full well they were not likely to get him back. They play it up in themedia to keep people from being mad, but come one give them some credit.

Hossa is not Judas, he did not send anyone to be killed. He simply exercised his right as a veteran player to play hockey for the same team as his friend, and learn what it takes to win the Cup from an organization that has done it.

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Did Niedermayer announce to his ex-team and their fans "so long suckers, I'm going to where I really have a chance to win the Cup? Nyahhh!" or take negotiations to the last possible minute, just to screw up his old team's FA signings?

Get back to me on that one.

Read my post (#44) for an explanation of free agent rules in the NHL. Hossa did nothing to prevent the Pens from signing other players.

Also when Hossa spoke of signing with Detroit because he had a better chance to win the cup he was speaking in relation to Edmonton. The Oilers offered him $70 million for 7 years ($10 million per season) to play for them. Hossa then was asked about it and that is where that much over used statement comes from. Hossa signed with Detroit over Edmonton because he felt the Wings organization had a better chance (then Edmonton) of winning a cup. Hossa was right, the Oilers organization is in a heavy rebuilding stage right now.

Edited by zaxx

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I feel the need to inform you of a couple of things.

1. NHL rules restrict any teams from talking to potential free agents until their current contracts expire. A team can request permission from the current contract holder for special permission (usually give up a draft pick for this chance) but that is the rule. This means that Hossa not signing before July 1st meant nothing to the Pens. They could not talk to anyone until July 1st so the delay cost them nothing.

2. What someone says to media and the truth is always different. "He has an upper body injury", "I will not change my lines", have you never seen a press conference? Coaches, players and everyone uses the media to get a message out, hide a truth, or misguide the other team. Anything for the edge. In this case Hossa likely wanted to return to Berg but was hoping for a chance to join his friend in Detroit. It is not selfish to want to skate with a good friend. I promise you (without any proof, so grains of salt are all over) Hossa told the Pens management long before July 1st that he was thinking about leaving. Pens Management knew that Hossa wanted to play on Detroit during the trade deadline when he tried to get traded there. The Pens were aware of his desire to skate with Tomas. You have seen the good trades the Pens management has made, they are not stupid. The knew full well they were not likely to get him back. They play it up in themedia to keep people from being mad, but come one give them some credit.

Hossa is not Judas, he did not send anyone to be killed. He simply exercised his right as a veteran player to play hockey for the same team as his friend, and learn what it takes to win the Cup from an organization that has done it.

Let me re-state my stance from another post:

That applies whether you're trying to take the "logical" approach with quotes and numbers all that, or this guy who's trying the ha-ha route.

I see apologist type #1 has weighed in now. Frankly I prefer the jokester approach, at least I get a chance at a little chuckle.

On second thought, I did get a little laugh out of this one:

I promise you (without any proof, so grains of salt are all over) Hossa told the Pens management long before July 1st that he was thinking about leaving.

Again, Wings fans who know the team better than Pens fans. Way to speculate, bud. I promise you (without any proof, grains of salt etc.) that Hossa sprouted wings, and monkeys flew out of his butt on the flight to Detroit, which he made without use of a plane.

Wow, now you know what Hoser said behind the scenes to Pens' management. Move over Syliva Browne, there's a new psychic in town now!

What's the NHL by-law on taking little verbal cheap shots at your ex-team on the way out the door btw? Does it say the player must do that, too?

Seriously, the lengths you people will go to defend this guy now that he's one of yours is amazing. Can't you just admit the possibility he acted like a jerk, and be done with it?

Edited by BewareThePenguin

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Whoever is saying that Hossa couldn't talk to anyone before July 1 is wrong. He couldn't talk to anyone other than the team he was playing for. A team can always talk to a player they have under contract.

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Let me re-state my stance from another post:

I see apologist type #1 has weighed in now. Frankly I prefer the jokester approach, at least I get a chance at a little chuckle.

On second thought, I did get a little laugh out of this one:

Again, Wings fans who know the team better than Pens fans. Way to speculate, bud. I promise you (without any proof, grains of salt etc.) that Hossa sprouted wings, and monkeys flew out of his butt on the flight to Detroit, which he made without use of a plane.

Wow, now you know what Hoser said behind the scenes to Pens' management. Move over Syliva Browne, there's a new psychic in town now!

What's the NHL by-law on taking little verbal cheap shots at your ex-team on the way out the door btw? Does it say the player must do that, too?

Seriously, the lengths you people will go to defend this guy now that he's one of yours is amazing. Can't you just admit the possibility he acted like a jerk, and be done with it?

I did not and would never apologize for anything Hossa did. You should not be debating an isue if you state that logical arguments with numbers would never sway you.

I am sorry I did not put "lol" around my grains of salt statement. I was having some fun.

The fact remains that unless Pens management is stupid, they knew Hossa wanted to play in Detroit. Heck Detroit media knew he wanted to play in Detroit, everyone knew except for Pens fans it seems. I will say that we can agree Pens management is not stupid, they must be smart to make the correct moves that got them to the finals 2 years in a row. There is no way that they did not know that Hossa wanted to leave for Detroit. Whether Hossa told them (I would put money on this), or they knew from the trade deadline negotiations when Detroit and Hossa talked at length (TSN spoke about it, if they knew then the Pens GM knew). Somewhere along the way the Pens management knew he wanted to play in Detroit, they would have been planning for the deadline with the assumption that he may leave and looking at this season, they did alright. Suck it up and get over the loss of a rental.

Hossa never said "The Penguins organization suck", or "The Penguins organization is worse then the Wings". He was speaking about an Oilers offer for $10 million that he had turned down when he said that he choose Detroit over the Oilers because they have a better chance at the cup.

I am not defending the guy, these are the facts. If you did not know he was leaving the Pens before the deadline then you must not be reading hockey journalists. Just reading the Pens forums does not count as a source of news.

Edited by zaxx

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The thing I find funny is how much Pens fans rip Hossa saying he sucks because he doesnt show up in the postseason. He was in Pitt for one playoff run.

20 games 12 goals 14 assists 26 points

They are really ripping a guy who was probably their best player last year in the postseason

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I did not and would never apologize for anything Hossa did. You should not be debating an isue if you state that logical arguments with numbers would never sway you.

I am sorry I did not put "lol" around my grains of salt statement. I was having some fun.

The fact remains that unless Pens management is stupid, they knew Hossa wanted to play in Detroit. Heck Detroit media knew he wanted to play in Detroit, everyone knew except for Pens fans it seems. I will say that we can agree Pens management is not stupid, they must be smart to make the correct moves that got them to the finals 2 years in a row. There is no way that they did not know that Hossa wanted to leave for Detroit. Whether Hossa told them (I would put money on this), or they knew from the trade deadline negotiations when Detroit and Hossa talked at length (TSN spoke about it, if they knew then the Pens GM knew). Somewhere along the way the Pens management knew he wanted to play in Detroit, they would have been planning for the deadline with the assumption that he may leave and looking at this season, they did alright. Suck it up and get over the loss of a rental.

Hossa never said "The Penguins organization suck", or "The Penguins organization is worse then the Wings". He was speaking about an Oilers offer for $10 million that he had turned down when he said that he choose Detroit over the Oilers because they have a better chance at the cup.

I am not defending the guy, these are the facts. If you did not know he was leaving the Pens before the deadline then you must not be reading hockey journalists. Just reading the Pens forums does not count as a source of news.

Wow, where do I begin with this arrogance?

Well first, about that message board thing.... see here we go again, Detroit fans who know more about the Pens than we do. No, contrary to what you think, I didn't need some stinkin' message board -- I, unlike you and your fellow Wings fans, saw all the Hossa interviews on local TV, and read the papers. I put up one quote before from Hossa talking about how swell he thought playing for the Pens was, and how he'd just be tickled if he could get re-signed. (So yeah, I read the "hockey journalists" and all that.) That was pretty much the way he talked all June, spreading roses and perfume about the team. Oh he was just so tickled to be here!

Why then would you assume Pens' management knew he was going to leave?

Any way you look at it, Hossa smells bad here. If he knew he was leaving for Detroit all along, then he just used the Pens for leverage while talking out the other side of his mouth. If he was sincere about how gushy he felt, then he changed his mind at the last second, leaving the team to scramble with its free-agent plans. That's just common decency which would apply to any employee-company relationship. There's a reason companies ask for a two-week notice.

And as for your "he only was speaking about the Oilers" -- nice try. Did he or did he not ALSO have an offer from the Pens? C'mon man.

Again, why can't you just admit the possibility he acted like a ******? And be done with it.

Edited by BewareThePenguin

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