swiss_fan 3 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 Hudler for 2.5 or Fil for 3? Hossa for 5 or Stuart for 3? These are easy questions and easy answers for me which solution do you prefer? 1/Hossa + Fil + top pick (assuming you could make a package of Hudler+Stuart, which could bring a very nice return; may be pick 5 from LA?) 2/Hossa + Stuart + top pick 3/Stuart + Fil + Hudler Samuelsson is out of the picture anyway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zetts 236 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 So in other words, you would prefer that the Wings have practically no cap space available? Plus, if Lebda and Meech are both outside the top 6, one of them will likely be traded. Lebda is the better pick to trade because Meech is just as good or better, more versatile, and cheaper. If they trade Lebda, they can keep Hudler over Samuelsson. Would you rather have Hudler, or Samuelsson and Lebda (as a 7th defenseman)? Remember, Kindl is available to come up if injuries happen on defense. He was ahead of Quincey on the Grand Rapids depth chart before Quincey was let go, and we all know how well Quincey (who I said we should have kept over Lebda) is doing. Cap space is an issue, yes, but we weren't exactly swimming in cap space this past season either. As far as Lebda or Meech being traded, I feel that's pretty unlikely. First, Lilja might not be back right away. But if he is, Lebda and Lilja (and possibly sometimes Ericsson) can rotate. It's what happened this past year with Meech/Lilja/Lebda/Chelios at varying times. It's not ideal, but we want depth on the back end. And with the injuries we seem to sustain it won't be an issue for long, especially since Meech can apparently play forward, despite really sucking at it. And I'd rather have Lebda and Samuelsson over Hudler. I'm aware that Hudler is MUCH more skilled than either of them, but with cap concerns, sometimes you're forced to go with quantity of players over quality. Besides, if Hudler's gone, we at least get some compensation in draft picks. Putting anything on Kindl is risky. The argument of him being better than Quincey is pretty iffy. He improved from what I belive was a league worst -34 to... -14. Sorry, but there's a reason he's 9th on our depth chart, and he's not ready to move up from anything I've heard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NomadFromKazoo 42 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 I beg to differ. Koko is adept at filling a roster spot so that a young inexperienced forward can gain valuable ice time in GR before being called up to fill Koko's spot when he has a season-ending injury. Totally agree. It's amazing how many people who claim to follow hockey constantly miss that point. Like with Ericsson and Cheli this year. Why is Cheli in Detroit? Ericsson is better! Answer, finish the thought, Why is Cheli in Detroit playing 6 minutes some nights and a healthy scratch others while E is playing 20+ a night in GR? The answer is in the question... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 Cap space is an issue, yes, but we weren't exactly swimming in cap space this past season either. As far as Lebda or Meech being traded, I feel that's pretty unlikely. First, Lilja might not be back right away. But if he is, Lebda and Lilja (and possibly sometimes Ericsson) can rotate. It's what happened this past year with Meech/Lilja/Lebda/Chelios at varying times. It's not ideal, but we want depth on the back end. And with the injuries we seem to sustain it won't be an issue for long, especially since Meech can apparently play forward, despite really sucking at it. And I'd rather have Lebda and Samuelsson over Hudler. I'm aware that Hudler is MUCH more skilled than either of them, but with cap concerns, sometimes you're forced to go with quantity of players over quality. Besides, if Hudler's gone, we at least get some compensation in draft picks. Putting anything on Kindl is risky. The argument of him being better than Quincey is pretty iffy. He improved from what I belive was a league worst -34 to... -14. Sorry, but there's a reason he's 9th on our depth chart, and he's not ready to move up from anything I've heard. Lebda and Samuelsson cost more than Hudler. Trading Lebda would bring back what kind of return...a third round pick? Fourth round? Hudler will likely bring back a second rounder at the kind of contract he would get. Small difference in return, HUGE difference in contribution to the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rocket Queen 30 1 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) god I hope we don't trade flip, he is a playoff performer. A lot of these people saying Datysuk looked like a superstar were probably the same wanting him not resigned because he was a playoff "choker". Flip looks great is much younger then Datsyuk, not to mention he gets to learn from Datsyuk. I bet by the time Flip is 30 he will be near Datsyuk's level. Datsyuk looked lke a superstar regular season guy but, was getting punked in the playoffs his first 2 seasons... He totally looked like a playoff choker but look at him now.. He's the shiz.... Anyone insterested in trading Filppula or who believes that's going to happen has a screw loose. Flip isn't going anywhere and he's going to get better. There's absolutely no reason to lose Filppula for Hossa. Hossa played 1 season for us and choked when the pressure was on... No thanks... I don't mind if he stays, but if it means losing Val... kick rocks Marian... P.S. Lebda sucks Edited June 20, 2009 by Rocket Queen 30 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zetts 236 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 Lebda and Samuelsson cost more than Hudler. Trading Lebda would bring back what kind of return...a third round pick? Fourth round? Hudler will likely bring back a second rounder at the kind of contract he would get. Small difference in return, HUGE difference in contribution to the team. I want to make sure I’m clear here, because this discussion is jumping around a bit. So, essentially, what I’ve gotten from this is that you want: Hudler and Hossa Whereas I would want: Stuart, Filppula, Lebda and Samuelsson If that’s the case, I think we’ll just have to disagree. I’d take defensive depth and respectable offense over absolutely no defensive depth and offense with questions about playoff performance any day. Looks like our two sets would likely have a nearly identical cap hit too. And you still need other players to fill roster spots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 Holland would be a maroon to not consider trading Filppula. Hudler and Flip are in the exact same boat, and both are being gauged for trade value, I guarantee it. I'm with you. I am sure that Kenny is or has at least considered it. If he keeps Hossa he has to shed some significant salary and if Stuart, Kronwall, Ralfi, Homer, Draper and Malts are off the table - and I think they are, Flip has to be considered because of his salary. Losing Sammy and Huds isn't going to be enough. This is why this is a tough decision. If he keeps Hossa, he may have no choice but to trade Flip. Hossa or Flip? I'd take Hossa but it would also suck to lose Flip. That's why Kenny makes the big bucks... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 I beg to differ. Koko is adept at filling a roster spot so that a young inexperienced forward can gain valuable ice time in GR before being called up to fill Koko's spot when he has a season-ending injury. That WAS true but not anymore. Babcock has already said that Helm Ericsson and Jay are not going back to GR. Therefore, we need spots for them and we don't need anybody to help fill spots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
55fan 5,133 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 That WAS true but not anymore. Babcock has already said that Helm Ericsson and Jay are not going back to GR. Therefore, we need spots for them and we don't need anybody to help fill spots. Just pointing out that he wasn't entirely useless. He was also Hossa bait, not to mention allowing Hossa to live there (I assume free of charge) so that Hossa could afford to take a huge paycut to come here. Imagine paying rent on a measly 7.45! He could still hold a roster space for Abby. That kid looked pretty darn good. If Hossa stays, we need really cheap guys to fill spots. If Hossa goes, then Koko becomes expendable. I was actually being sarcastic in my original response, but there's a grain of truth to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FunkedUp 29 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 Despite Abby's performance I still think he will be in GR next year, but will be the first call up. Judging by what's happening I don't think Kenny is going to bring in anyone from outside our orginization. It really depends on a few players. If Hossa will take Franzen money, then you have to pull that trigger. If not, then so long Marian. To be honest I think Hossa is going to take a gargantuan pay-cut to stay with us, and it will suprise the hockey world. The other question marks are Kopy and Leino. We don't have much cap space so they both won't be getting much of a raise, if at all. Leino has made it clear that he will only play in the NHL or he's heading back to the land of cold and snow. It will be interesting to see what happens. Bottom line is that I think we will see Sammy, Huds, and Chelios gone for sure. Kopy and Leino are toss ups but will come at the expense of the other. Howard will be gone too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 That WAS true but not anymore. Babcock has already said that Helm Ericsson and Jay are not going back to GR. Therefore, we need spots for them and we don't need anybody to help fill spots. A) Babcock doesn't make the roster decisions. B) Kopecky played ahead of Abdelkader and Leino in the playoffs, and has outplayed Maltby for two years now and was IMHO better than Draper last season. Keep that in mind when saying "Kopecky is useless and Babcock wants to get rid of him." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 A) Babcock doesn't make the roster decisions. B) Kopecky played ahead of Abdelkader and Leino in the playoffs, and has outplayed Maltby for two years now and was IMHO better than Draper last season. Keep that in mind when saying "Kopecky is useless and Babcock wants to get rid of him." That puzzles me. Are you saying that Babcock doesn't decide who plays and who goes to GR? I never said Kopy was useless, I just commented that we don't need him to just fill a spot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted June 20, 2009 Ok, find me someone who brings what Kopecky offers (size, good physical game, good skater, decent skill, decent defensively) for $575k or under then because that's what Kopecky would cost. Sorry you don't like the guy, but the fact is he very well might be the best player in the league in his price range. He could play third line with no trouble and could play on some teams' second lines and contribute well. It's not like he's an Aaron Downey where he's got zero skill and all he can do is fight. The guy can actually play hockey. Wrong on that one Eva. Kopy is an unrestricted Free Agent and made $500 k last year (cap hit). No way that he signs for $575. He's probably $700k or so at least. Everybody gets a raise when they become UFA's Best player in the league for $500k? You should check your facts first. Here's a couple guys that are MUCH better for the same money. Kris Versteeg $490k Scott Clemmenson $500k Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 Wrong on that one Eva. Kopy is an unrestricted Free Agent and made $500 k last year (cap hit). No way that he signs for $575. He's probably $700k or so at least. Everybody gets a raise when they become UFA's Best player in the league for $500k? You should check your facts first. Here's a couple guys that are MUCH better for the same money. Kris Versteeg $490k Scott Clemmenson $500k Yes, and Kyle Quincey is the best defenseman in the league per dollar. He posted a ton of points and was solid defensively and only made $525k. But there are some holes in your rebuttal. 1) Clemmensen is a goalie. 2) Versteeg is a rookie. Malkin made barely more than Filppula last year, would you say they are in the same talent range? Flip makes more than Toews and Kane, too. Find me someone the Wings could REPLACE KOPECKY WITH for the same kind of cash. And he'll stick around for under $600k. People expect Hossa to take a $3.5m paycut, and don't think Kopecky would be satisfied with only a small raise? WTF? I suppose I did walk into that by not ruling out rookies...but ok. Find me some forwards who have played at least two seasons who makes the same kind of cash ($600k or less) that Kopecky will be signing for who are better than Kopecky. Best player in his price range may have been a stretch...but irreplaceable at his price? That's certainly another story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 Looking at the figures... If Hossa signs for the $4m people are throwing around... That means his cap hit and Zetterberg's cap hit combined are actually less than last season. Plus, it means that trading Stuart and letting Chelios go, letting Samuelsson go and replacing Conklin with Howard, potentially allows the Wings to keep everyone but Samuelsson, Chelios, and Conklin; All three of which will likely receive offers outside of what the Wings can afford to pay them for their roles on the team anyway. If Maltby and/or Holmstrom retire, that opens up considerably more cap space to work with. Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Cleary Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Holmstrom Helm/Draper/Kopecky Maltby Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard If Maltby retires: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Cleary Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Holmstrom Helm/Draper/Kopecky Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard If Homer retires: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Cleary Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Kopecky Helm/Draper/Maltby Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard If Maltby and Homer retire: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Cleary Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Kopecky Helm/Draper/Abdelkader Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casey 145 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 That puzzles me. Are you saying that Babcock doesn't decide who plays and who goes to GR? I never said Kopy was useless, I just commented that we don't need him to just fill a spot. Pretty much. Babs said late in the season that Ericsson would have been up in 07-08 if he'd been able to bring him up. Considering Meech still had some ability to go down, it must have been Holland. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EuroTwin 240 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 I beg to differ. Koko is adept at filling a roster spot so that a young inexperienced forward can gain valuable ice time in GR before being called up to fill Koko's spot when he has a season-ending injury. This is unfortunately true, even though I know you were being funny. Koko does have the unfortunate ability to break himself. Don't think the poor kid has played a season without getting pretty greviously injured. He broke his face this year, busted his knee up at least twice, broke his collarbone that one time... Poor dear Koko Just when I felt like he was coming back fully from his knee injury in the 07-08 season, he breaks himself again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HudlerFanatic 4 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 WooHoo! There's still Hope for Huds! (hey, I should make a shirt w/ that!) LMAO! Sorry, bored and reading posts....had to throw it in there! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKWING 8 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 Looking at the figures... If Hossa signs for the $4m people are throwing around... That means his cap hit and Zetterberg's cap hit combined are actually less than last season. Plus, it means that trading Stuart and letting Chelios go, letting Samuelsson go and replacing Conklin with Howard, potentially allows the Wings to keep everyone but Samuelsson, Chelios, and Conklin; All three of which will likely receive offers outside of what the Wings can afford to pay them for their roles on the team anyway. If Maltby and/or Holmstrom retire, that opens up considerably more cap space to work with. Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Cleary Franzen/Hudler/Hossa Leino/Filppula/Holmstrom Helm/Draper/Kopecky Maltby Lidstrom/Rafalski Kronwall/Ericsson Meech/Lilja Lebda Osgood Howard surely that roster would be over the cap? even assuming that hossa takes $4m, you would still need hudler to take around $1.5m and kopecky and leino to be content not to get a raise. i would love to keep hudler but he deserves at least $2.5m and i would not be surprised to see another team give him an offer sheet for around that amount knowing that the wings could not afford to match it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 You know what? At first I didn't want Downey to have a role next year but now I've somewhat changed my mind. I wouldn't mind if Aaron Downey has a spot next year, but only because of a theoretical domino effect it may have. If we assume that Downey is a 4th liner and see that Draper, as a 4th line fixture, averaged 12 minutes a game, and had Downey play 5-7 minutes a game, that means 5-7 minutes are available for some of the guys who flip flop between the 2nd/3rd line. Like Filppula. Some say he plays better with more minutes. What if having Downey on the roster allows for Filppula to average 17-18 minutes a game, which is in the class of Franzen and Hossa and one minute less than Datsyuk and Zetterberg? And it's not just Filppula. What about Cleary or Helm? What if having Downey on the roster allows for some of our other players to get the bigger minutes they need to really thrive? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 surely that roster would be over the cap? even assuming that hossa takes $4m, you would still need hudler to take around $1.5m and kopecky and leino to be content not to get a raise. i would love to keep hudler but he deserves at least $2.5m and i would not be surprised to see another team give him an offer sheet for around that amount knowing that the wings could not afford to match it. If the Wings can't afford to match it, then trade Filppula for picks and prospects (better return than just a 2nd pick for an equal caliber player of the same age) and move Kopecky to center the third line (on a trial basis) as he's shown more offensive ability than Helm and would likely be a better fit with Leino and Homer. If Leino/Kops/Homer doesn't work out, try it with Helm instead. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted June 21, 2009 If the Wings can't afford to match it, then trade Filppula for picks and prospects (better return than just a 2nd pick for an equal caliber player of the same age) and move Kopecky to center the third line (on a trial basis) as he's shown more offensive ability than Helm and would likely be a better fit with Leino and Homer. If Leino/Kops/Homer doesn't work out, try it with Helm instead. Isn't it obvious by now that the Wings don't consider Filppula and Hudler "equal caliber players"? And Helm had 4 goals in the playoff, Kopecky had 5 & 6 in his last two full seasons... I think it's safe to say Helm is better in all facets of the game Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
