Hudler files for arbitration

[Wingfan191 2]

Well with Leino re-signing that gives the Wings 10 forwards, 8 d, and 2 goalies officially. We're still 2 forwards short and they only have like 3 mil left. Hudler is filing for arbitration and seeing as how he put up career numbers and will be a constant 20 goal scorer he's going to be commanding at least 3 mil a season. ESPECIALLY with Flip getting 3 mil as a comparison. The only way I see the Wings keeping Huds, is if they say to him, "look, we want to keep you around, but we can't afford to give you the 3 mil right now, so how about you re-sign for 2 years at a slight increase, then we'll up your contract after that when we have the cap space again?" So he can either wait it out for 2 years at a home town discount, or move on to another team and make his money. Since he already has a ring, it's not like he needs to go to a contender right away and might put up with just being on a "decent" team that has a shot at the playoffs.

So, if we lose Hudler, I'd almost want to gamble on a guy like Afinogenov. He's coming off 2 s***ty season in Buffalo, so he can't be asking for too much money, but he has the potential to be a Hudler like player and possibly even better if surrounded with the right players. He had back to back 20 goal season in 06 and 07, along with 61 pts in 56 games in 07 and was a +19. He'll also turn 30 in September, so he still should be in his prime, and at 6 feet, 190, he'll be a bigger body than Hudler for sure.

His last contract had a cap hit of 3.3 mil, so maybe they can talk him into a one year "try out" kind of deal to redeem himself at like 2 or 2.5 mil. Then if he responds well, we can afford to pay him 3.5 or whatever next year and sign him long term.

[Guest lilja4mvp]

Wow, you can fling insults on a message board on the internet.

Have you learned how to use the potty yet?

Zing!

[HudlerFanatic 4]

THIS JUST IN....

Penguin fans think Hudler will take a discount and go to Pittsburgh for a better shot at winning the cup.

haha

Tha's NOT EVEN FUNNY! Don't joke like that....I will be sad if he's not a Wing next year.....but I'll watch him play with anyone BUT THEM! If all else fails....I'd like to see him in Tampa since that's where I will probably be moving in 2010...

NOT F'ksberg!

[HudlerFanatic 4]

SORRY in advance if this has already been posted....thought it interesting....

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/07/re...cap_issues.html

Red Wings' potential cap issues point to trade on defense, Justin Abdelkader demotion

Posted by George James Malik July 06, 2009 19:34PM

Categories: Griffins

The Oakland Press's Pat Caputo questioned whether Red Wings forward Jiri Hudler is really worth $2-3 million on the open market, suggesting that Ken Holland should pass on signing him...And as Hudler could garner a $3.5 million salary, I don't see why Holland shouldn't at least attempt to get a $2-2.5 million deal done. As the Macomb Daily's Bruce MacLeod notes, however, the Wings will have cap issues if they sign him:

July 6, RedWingsCorner: Looking at a possible NHL roster, the Red Wings have 11 forwards, 8 defensemen and 2 goalies signed. That roster includes Leino, Darren Helm, Justin Abdelkader, Derek Meech, Jonathan Ericsson, Brett Lebda and Andreas Lilja. That roster does not include Jiri Hudler.

That roster has a cap hit of approx. $55.117 million. That leaves $1.683 million of room left under the $56.8 million cap.

With 11 forwards, the Red Wings obviously need two more and they have two slots open with the roster that I'm using. The problem is that Hudler's salary is going to make the Wings do a cap dance again. Hudler could be given a salary of $3-4 million by an arbitrator. Even if he signs for $2 million, that puts Detroit over the cap limit.

So, with $1.683 of room, the obvious place to cut salary is on defense, where eight is a luxury. Add on Hudler at $3 million and a 13th forward like Jeremy Williams at $500,000 (salary guess) and you've got a team payroll of $58.6 million. So, you've got two options ... hope that the entire league office has dyslexia and reads $58.6 million as $56.8 million ... or cut $1.817 million off the payroll.

I honestly have no idea whether the Wings are simply assuming that Andreas Lilja will not play this upcoming season, but it appears that his $1.25 million salary becomes the Wings' cap room, with Derek Meech ($483,000) and/or Brett Lebda ($650,000) possibly expendable if necessary.

I don't believe that the Wings would buy anyone out at this point, and it seems like Justin Abdelkader's $850,000 salary might be the other pressure point that would involve a demotion for the sake of adding a bargain-priced free agent grinder. The Wings want Abdelkader to play 20+ minutes per game in Grand Rapids, not 8 minutes on the fourth line in Detroit.

[titanium2 867]

Tha's NOT EVEN FUNNY! Don't joke like that....I will be sad if he's not a Wing next year.....but I'll watch him play with anyone BUT THEM! If all else fails....I'd like to see him in Tampa since that's where I will probably be moving in 2010...

NOT F'ksberg!

If he does somehow find his way to Tampa, any chance you could somehow meet him and convince him to convince their management to trade Hedman to the Wings for say... Some role player and a first round draft pick?

[LeftWinger 4,963]

SORRY in advance if this has already been posted....thought it interesting....

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/07/re...cap_issues.html

Red Wings' potential cap issues point to trade on defense, Justin Abdelkader demotion

Posted by George James Malik July 06, 2009 19:34PM

Categories: Griffins

The Oakland Press's Pat Caputo questioned whether Red Wings forward Jiri Hudler is really worth $2-3 million on the open market, suggesting that Ken Holland should pass on signing him...And as Hudler could garner a $3.5 million salary, I don't see why Holland shouldn't at least attempt to get a $2-2.5 million deal done. As the Macomb Daily's Bruce MacLeod notes, however, the Wings will have cap issues if they sign him:

July 6, RedWingsCorner: Looking at a possible NHL roster, the Red Wings have 11 forwards, 8 defensemen and 2 goalies signed. That roster includes Leino, Darren Helm, Justin Abdelkader, Derek Meech, Jonathan Ericsson, Brett Lebda and Andreas Lilja. That roster does not include Jiri Hudler.

That roster has a cap hit of approx. $55.117 million. That leaves $1.683 million of room left under the $56.8 million cap.

With 11 forwards, the Red Wings obviously need two more and they have two slots open with the roster that I'm using. The problem is that Hudler's salary is going to make the Wings do a cap dance again. Hudler could be given a salary of $3-4 million by an arbitrator. Even if he signs for $2 million, that puts Detroit over the cap limit.

So, with $1.683 of room, the obvious place to cut salary is on defense, where eight is a luxury. Add on Hudler at $3 million and a 13th forward like Jeremy Williams at $500,000 (salary guess) and you've got a team payroll of $58.6 million. So, you've got two options ... hope that the entire league office has dyslexia and reads $58.6 million as $56.8 million ... or cut $1.817 million off the payroll.

I honestly have no idea whether the Wings are simply assuming that Andreas Lilja will not play this upcoming season, but it appears that his $1.25 million salary becomes the Wings' cap room, with Derek Meech ($483,000) and/or Brett Lebda ($650,000) possibly expendable if necessary.

I don't believe that the Wings would buy anyone out at this point, and it seems like Justin Abdelkader's $850,000 salary might be the other pressure point that would involve a demotion for the sake of adding a bargain-priced free agent grinder. The Wings want Abdelkader to play 20+ minutes per game in Grand Rapids, not 8 minutes on the fourth line in Detroit.

Honestly, Haven't I been saying this all along? I have been preaching this until I was blue in the face. I have said time and time again, I do believe Hudler's worth is great than $1.5 to $2.0M, but we cannot give him more because it will eat up most of our cap and we still need to fill the forwards positions. Each and everytime I would get flamed up and down by the Hudler-gard. Each time I try to explain that exact fact that Hudler IS worth $3.0 or more, but Holland cannot pay him that much, so if he wants it, he best leave.

I've read thousands of anti-Hossa posts on here calling him every name in the book, inluding "Chump" because he didn't want to play for $4.5 salary, which is over 50% of his market worth, BUT those same anti-Hossa's yelled and screamed and called me names when I suggested that Hudler should also be expected to sign for 50% of his market worth if he wants to play in Detroit and allow Holland to complete the roster with the best possible forwards with the most amount of money to offer them. Again, I was told tons of different things and called things and told to get my head out of my ass, asked if I ever post anything that makes sense...

...so if takes Pat Caputo to pretty much repeat everything I and my fellow "goodbye Hudler" members have been saying to start convincing people that it is just not going to work here unless he takes that discounted contract. Basically, we have 3 forward positions to fill with (leaving Abby out) roughly $2.5M left, assuming Lilja is healthy to play. We trade one of Lebda or Meech and you gain between $450,000 and $650,000 more. So, three forward spots for roughly $3M, you just can't be giving one of those guys $2 to $2.5 of it.

Are people starting to see that he needs to "take on for the team" and sign maybe a 1 year deal for $1.5, with the promise that next season they give him his raise. Signing for $1.5, leaves $1.5 to fil out the roster, one of which as Caputo mentioned above would have to be a $500,000 player in order to possibly find a Joe UFA for around $1 to $1.1M. TOo bad Hudler went to arbitration beause #1, he's either going to sign with Detroit for whatever the arbitraitor says and then be traded ( I suggest him, Stuart (convince him to waive the NTC) to LA for Jack Johnson.) or Holland will decide to not sign Hudler and lose him to UFA, especially if he signs for more than $3.1, that would take the 1st and 3rd picks away from us!

[LeftWinger 4,963]

If he does somehow find his way to Tampa, any chance you could somehow meet him and convince him to convince their management to trade Hedman to the Wings for say... Some role player and a first round draft pick?

Thats a whole lot of convincing, just what are suggesting she do in addition to the above package?

I called for the trade on draft day. I traded rights to Hudler, Kronwall, our 1st,2nd picks to Tampa for the #2 overall pick. What was I told? Never Happen, go back to NHL 09, etc... etc... No all of a sudden you guys want to make a trade for Hedman. It's too late, should've made the trade at the draft. Sure we'd miss Kronner, but Hedman would make up fo it, PLUS he will be the defensive leader once Lidstrom steps away from the game, but until then:

Lidstrom - Rafaski

Stuart - Ericsson

Hedman - Lilja

Lebda (Meech)

Wow, #'s 4 thru 6 are giant! We'd easily rival Anaheim defense corps from last year in size and weight!

[titanium2 867]

go back to NHL 09, etc... etc... No all of a sudden you guys want to make a trade for Hedman.

You know I wasn't really serious.

She mentioned she planned to move to Tampa and hoped that if Hudler goes anywhere she hoped it was Tampa and these days, when I think of the Lightning I think of Hedman. (Sorry Vinny and Marty).

[wingsownnhl43 14]

If it came down to deciding between Hudler and Filppula, I take Hudler.

There goes any credibility you might have had.

[HudlerFanatic 4]

I just read these and WOW....I was just stating that I would be moving next spring...and if he could go anywhere...I would love it to be Tampa b/c Im sure we'll have season tickets! LOL! I must read up on this Hedman dude....haha!

And as for the trade convincing.....I don't think that'll happen....!

[Probie 7]

Hey folks who keep saying we can trade hudler if he gets too much awarded by the abirter, it cant happen. I know some of us think we can because a blog from mlive told us we could, but its just a blog, its not the be all and end all source of information. Ive asked name known well known knowledgeable hockey people like Specter and others to settle the debate on RFA's, arbitration, and tradeability, and have pm'd a bunch of the more knowledgeable folks at hockeysfuture's board too. So unless they are ALL crazy, then maybe I'm wrong, but everything points to saying no. Below is my Q&A with Specter aka Lyle Richardson:

This is an enquiry e-mail via http://www.spectorshockey.net/ from:

Brad Stewart <dirtydirtydawg@gmail.com>

Seeing as you know your stuff, there is an argument amongst redwing fans regarding what will happen with Hudler and our serious cap issues... could you please settle this debate.

Basically Hudler has filed for Arbitration, and if he gets his 3+ Million, it puts the wings over the cap with a 22man roster. Our argument is this: Some people believe once a player files for arbitration, and the team elects to pay that amount (and not decline and lose the player to UFA), then that player cannot be traded for a period of one year. Ive searched the net but cant find confirmation. A few posters at hockeybuzz agreed with me, some did not. If they cant trade him for a year, and they are over the cap, they have to trade other players to get under it...thats what we are worried about. Thanks for your help.

Wait, how about this question: Could they trade him before the team enters the arbitration process in a few days? Thanks.

The Response:

It's true, once a player is awarded a salary under arbitration and the team doesn't walk away from the award he cannot be moved for one year. Once he's filed for arbitration he cannot be dealt.

Even if the Wings re-sign Hudler before arbitration they'll still be over the cap so they'd have to move out some salary prior to the start of next season to get under the cap regardless.

Cheers,

Lyle Richardson

Spector's Hockey

www.spectorshockey.net

[HudlerFanatic 4]

Hey folks who keep saying we can trade hudler if he gets too much awarded by the abirter, it cant happen. I know some of us think we can because a blog from mlive told us we could, but its just a blog, its not the be all and end all source of information. Ive asked name known well known knowledgeable hockey people like Specter and others to settle the debate on RFA's, arbitration, and tradeability, and have pm'd a bunch of the more knowledgeable folks at hockeysfuture's board too. So unless they are ALL crazy, then maybe I'm wrong, but everything points to saying no. Below is my Q&A with Specter aka Lyle Richardson:

This is an enquiry e-mail via http://www.spectorshockey.net/ from:

Brad Stewart <dirtydirtydawg@gmail.com>

Seeing as you know your stuff, there is an argument amongst redwing fans regarding what will happen with Hudler and our serious cap issues... could you please settle this debate.

Basically Hudler has filed for Arbitration, and if he gets his 3+ Million, it puts the wings over the cap with a 22man roster. Our argument is this: Some people believe once a player files for arbitration, and the team elects to pay that amount (and not decline and lose the player to UFA), then that player cannot be traded for a period of one year. Ive searched the net but cant find confirmation. A few posters at hockeybuzz agreed with me, some did not. If they cant trade him for a year, and they are over the cap, they have to trade other players to get under it...thats what we are worried about. Thanks for your help.

Wait, how about this question: Could they trade him before the team enters the arbitration process in a few days? Thanks.

The Response:

It's true, once a player is awarded a salary under arbitration and the team doesn't walk away from the award he cannot be moved for one year. Once he's filed for arbitration he cannot be dealt.

Even if the Wings re-sign Hudler before arbitration they'll still be over the cap so they'd have to move out some salary prior to the start of next season to get under the cap regardless.

Cheers,

Lyle Richardson

Spector's Hockey

www.spectorshockey.net

I think I saw the posts were you were talking about on the HF boards (im not sure where) and even copied that into one of these damn threads (quoting you of course) b/c I couldn't remember seeing any posts by you on here...but now I do....I understand! Thanks for posting it here as well!!

[titanium2 867]

Maybe this deserves its own thread but I probably get more annoyed than the mods do when a couple of threads need to be merged.

http://www2.canada.com/windsorstar/news/sp...fd-9055e58b934d

HUDLER'S RETURN

Red Wings general manager Ken Holland said he's also confident he'll get a contract done with forward Jiri Hudler.

"Hudler, at some point, will be done," Holland said.

The 25-year-old Hudler will be looking for a raise from the US$1.15 million he made a year ago after posting a career-high 23 goals and 57 points in 82 games.

Hudler filed for arbitration Sunday, which means the restricted free agent cannot receive an offer sheet from another club.

Holland and Hudler's representatives will continue to negotiate with arbitration cases set to be heard July 20 to Aug. 4 in Toronto.

"I've talked to his agent and I think he wants to be in Detroit," Holland said.

"With the cap system, there's only so much space.

"I know he's made a great case for a significant raise. We've compared numbers with his agent and we're probably a little lower than he wants and he's a little higher than we think."

[Probie 7]

I think I saw the posts were you were talking about on the HF boards (im not sure where) and even copied that into one of these damn threads (quoting you of course) b/c I couldn't remember seeing any posts by you on here...but now I do....I understand! Thanks for posting it here as well!!

Yeah I saw you copy that blurb I wrote at the HF boards, I know what you are talking about. I guess we are right fu<ked with the cap? Who do we trade? Its not good. I wish it was wrong about the Hudler situation and mlive was right, cause we lose someone important. Only scenario that works ok with me is Homer retires, saves us 2.25 Mil, Hudler somehow accepts 2.5 Mill, and it leaves us 1.56M under the cap with a 21 man roster with the usual sujects plus abs and Lieno. It leaves is 1.56M for another forward. How about Pyatt for that much? Hes big, and can score a bit and is improving. Size and youth is something we could use. If Homer stays, we cant trade Pavs, Z, Mule, Cleary, Drapes, Stuart, Rafs, Lids, due to extreme loyalty or NTC's,and Gator and Erricson are untouchables, plus the other guys make so little they dont count in this discussion. That leaves us with kronwall, or Filpulla, unless we go for a 21 man roster. Can anyone tell me if thats really such a good idea? I'm all ears.

I wanted to trade Huds before or at the draft. We could have used a couple picks (2nd 3rd) to grab a couple more picks in a deep draft. I like him, but as mentioned he has a few drawbacks like size and speed, but also it would almost be good for him to go to a team where he could get more time and opportunity. I have nothing against him, and hope he does well so dont take me wrong when i say I hoped he got traded before the draft, its just perhaps one way of thinking, that could have worked out better for the team and himself. He is a sniper though, his teammates have said it.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Probie

[egroen 384]

There goes any credibility you might have had.

You might be surprised with how many agree with me here.

Smallish defensive forwards with good skating are more common in the NHL than someone who puts up 55+ points with limited minutes.

[Wombat 26]

Probie, thanks for the research. If it is true that now he cannot be traded, then this is a bad situation for the Wings. I was really hoping they could get some draft picks for him because I just don't see how he's going to fit into the Cap situation unless they make a handshake and wink deal for 1 year cheap with the agreement to sign for more money the following season when some contracts expire.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

You might be surprised with how many agree with me here.

Smallish defensive forwards with good skating are more common in the NHL than someone who puts up 55+ points with limited minutes.

Dont take offense to this. Ive read some of your posts on here, and you seem like a good guy.

However, it boggles my mind that for a fan base as blessed with great hockey and such a rich tradition as ours has, that so many people cant see how obvious it is that Filppula is heads and shoulders better than Hudler.

I realize that people can simply watch hockey and be entertained by players skating around the rink at a fast pace scoring goals. My girlfriend likes watching but really doesnt have a clue how the game is played.

If you are knowledgeable enough and watch how plays are developed, how the team breaks out of their zone, how players play their position, how players battle along the boards, win races to the puck, how certain players make heady plays that dont show up on the score sheet.. etc, this really isnt even a debate.

If you arent able to watch the little things that go on in a game. To me, proof is in the pudding when Hudler cant be counted upon to play more than 12 minutes a game, and that some of those minutes are logged while we have a 5 on 4 advantage. At times, he is a liability.

While I'd like to have Hudler back, it is pure idiocy to say he should be kept over Filppula. Filppula still hasnt even peaked offensively.

[egroen 384]

Dont take offense to this. Ive read some of your posts on here, and you seem like a good guy.

However, it boggles my mind that for a fan base as blessed with great hockey and such a rich tradition as ours has, that so many people cant see how obvious it is that Filppula is heads and shoulders better than Hudler.

I realize that people can simply watch hockey and be entertained by players skating around the rink at a fast pace scoring goals. My girlfriend likes watching but really doesnt have a clue how the game is played.

If you are knowledgeable enough and watch how plays are developed, how the team breaks out of their zone, how players play their position, how players battle along the boards, win races to the puck, how certain players make heady plays that dont show up on the score sheet.. etc, this really isnt even a debate.

If you arent able to watch the little things that go on in a game. To me, proof is in the pudding when Hudler cant be counted upon to play more than 12 minutes a game, and that some of those minutes are logged while we have a 5 on 4 advantage. At times, he is a liability.

While I'd like to have Hudler back, it is pure idiocy to say he should be kept over Filppula. Filppula still hasnt even peaked offensively.

If I was limited to the choice of building an entire team full of either Filppulas or Hudlers, I would choose Filppula with very little hesitation -- but the thing is, we already have a bunch of Filppulas, only better -- Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Cleary -- all guys who play great defense and chip in more offensively. Maltby and Draper are still on the team with Helm and Abdelkader, and the pipeline is chock-full of defensively responsible, speedy players who can chip in offensively.

But a good team still needs some Holmstroms, Brett Hulls (in his Detroit years) and Hudlers -- high-end offensive guys, but do not cost $6m+ because their defensive skills are lacking. Holmstrom is next to retired and Leino is completely unproven in the NHL (and scored much less than Hudler in the AHL, at a much older age). There are very few high-end offensive threats in our pipe-line.

I believe I have seen Filppula's peak, or very close to it -- He will never be a playmaker and he will never be a goal scorer. Hudler is both of those. That is valuable and worth keeping.

Edited July 7, 2009 by egroen

[egroen 384]

The other thing about if it comes down to Filppula or Hudler -- is I get some nice picks for trading Filppula. I get nothing for losing Hudler.

Hudler + picks > Filppula

[wingsownnhl43 14]

I dont know what else needs to be said, building off of my previous post. It really isnt a debate amongst the informed. You dont trade a way a guy capable of playing 20 mpg to sign a guy that is barely trusted in 5-5 situations. You can never have enough two-way players and we saw this first hand in the SCF. The Pens depth exposed our depth players that have subpar defensive ability and that includes Hudler and Samuelsson.

[egroen 384]

I dont know what else needs to be said, building off of my previous post. It really isnt a debate amongst the informed. You dont trade a way a guy capable of playing 20 mpg to sign a guy that is barely trusted in 5-5 situations. You can never have enough two-way players and we saw this first hand in the SCF. The Pens depth exposed our depth players that have subpar defensive ability and that includes Hudler and Samuelsson.

Yes, you can have enough two-way guys in a cap-world because they cost a hell of a lot more than one-way guys.

I can replace Filppula with two one-way guys for less money. Helm has more speed, can dig the puck out of the corners, can backcheck and forecheck just as hard and can carry and hold onto the puck just as well as Filppula; and Leino has more offensive potential than Filppula -- at more than $1m less combined. Plus I get picks for Filppula.

Are you amongst the "informed" that see Filppula as the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg? Honestly, that is some hubris you are pulling in...

If you think Holland has not seriously considered trading Filppula, you are not giving him much credit. The "informed" - give me a break.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Another thing I noticed... Your signature says you think Red Kelly and Larry Aurie's numbers belong in the rafters, however your profile says you are 33 years old. Red Kelly's career ended in 1967. Larry Aurie's career ended respectively in 1944, which means you have seen neither of them play.

I bring this up because I think it further portrays how much stock you put into highlights and statistics. There is so much more to hockey than that. The game is played at both ends of the ice. Like I said earlier, you just cant have enough players that do the little things to help you win. Filppula is much more of a complete player than Hudler. It really is night and day.

Edited July 7, 2009 by wingsownnhl43

[titanium2 867]

"Goodness what a pass."

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Yes, you can have enough two-way guys in a cap-world because they cost a hell of a lot more than one-way guys.

I can replace Filppula with two one-way guys for less money.

You are suggesting that we trade Filppula to sign Hudler. Hudler is asking for 3-3.5 million. Filppula makes 3 million. Filppula is more of a complete player. Am i missing something here? And no. I could say with confidence that Holland is not looking to trade Fillppula. 3 million is a hell of a nice cap hit for a 25 year old, complete, all around player, with a ton of playoff experience. Filppula is going no where.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Also, in case you missed it.

One of the reasons we manhandled Chicago in the playoffs is because we have guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filppula, Cleary as opposed to Kane, Toews, Versteeg,

We do it at both ends of the ice. I cant believe you just said you'd rather have a one-way player over a two-way player.

Edited July 7, 2009 by wingsownnhl43