KHL will honor NHL's decision on Hudler

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Well don't you have more time and space when there's only 4 guys up against you instead of 5?

But that's why I said best defensive forwards, which could be on a team's 3rd, 4th, whatever line. Don't teams normally send out their best defensive forwards against the other team's top scoring line?

They try to but most coaches try to play their best players against the opposition's worst players.

In the end I think the difference between the competition would be offset by Hudler playing with linemates more offensively gifted than end of the road Draper and Maltby.

[Peleshob 0]

You didn't prove anything, IMO. Jiri Hudler getting 57 points playing on a third line doesn't mean he would get more on a first line. And saying that 4 guys on the PK is equal to playing the top guys on another team at even strength is absurd. There's a reason it's called the powerplay. On the power play it's much more likely that Hudler's flaws won't be exposed because he's not being as pressured.

You can throw all the stats out you want, in the end assuming that he would score that many points on another team is hypothetical. I know me saying that he won't is the same thing, but at least I'm saying I don't know what would happen as opposed to, "Jiri Hudler is a first line player on 'X' number of teams.

When it comes down to it can you deny that Hudler was pretty much smothered all post-season? He was shown to be ineffective in the corners when pressured. Jiri Hudler is a good player, but he is a second line player.

[titanium2 867]

Show me some proof of this. Hudler often played with players like Draper and Maltby who did NOT have offensive skill. Hudler typically had to create his own offense at even strength. On the second power play unit, Hudler was an extremely dangerous offensive force as a playmaker and as a scorer; He played a huge part in making that unit work. Perhaps it can be argued that the Wings made Hudler's numbers look better by providing players to finish for him on the power play, but by the same token, the Wings made Hudler's numbers worse by sticking Hudler on the third and fourth lines with guys who aren't scorers instead of on the first or second line with a guy who can score. If Hudler had been centering a line with Naslund and Zherdev, Hudler probably racks up 50 assists and 75-80 points.

Let's see. If I were a believer in that then I'd first look to the most popular examples I've seen forum people cite, which are Fedorov and Lapointe. You could perhaps make a case for Schneider, although age is a factor as well.

If I were to argue from your side, as in the Wings make some players stats less than what they're capable of, I'd say Ray Whitney is a good one. Also, it is possible for some players to play on other teams and produce (points) just as well if not better, Slava Kozlov as one example.

(Sorry, I'm too tired to dig and argue deeper. Maybe I'll come back tomorrow with more. Personally, I don't care, but it's been my perception that that is what many other teams think, which is just an aggravating circumstance when you already consider Hudler's size and skating ability).

[titanium2 867]

On the power play it's much more likely that Hudler's flaws won't be exposed because he's not being as pressured.

Huh? The best defensive forwards and best defensemen are facing him on the power play. How is it a world of difference to face those guys 5-on-5.

You really don't think it makes a world of difference? I'm sure you have your reasons but why not? It was a big difference to me at least points wise. It's fun to have control of the puck.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

You really don't think it makes a world of difference? I'm sure you have your reasons but why not? It was a big difference to me at least points wise. It's fun to have control of the puck.

I still maintain that the increase in quality linemates compensates for this. The difference in linematching makes a difference too.

[StevieY9802 6]

You didn't prove anything, IMO. Jiri Hudler getting 57 points playing on a third line doesn't mean he would get more on a first line. And saying that 4 guys on the PK is equal to playing the top guys on another team at even strength is absurd. There's a reason it's called the powerplay. On the power play it's much more likely that Hudler's flaws won't be exposed because he's not being as pressured.

You can throw all the stats out you want, in the end assuming that he would score that many points on another team is hypothetical. I know me saying that he won't is the same thing, but at least I'm saying I don't know what would happen as opposed to, "Jiri Hudler is a first line player on 'X' number of teams.

When it comes down to it can you deny that Hudler was pretty much smothered all post-season? He was shown to be ineffective in the corners when pressured. Jiri Hudler is a good player, but he is a second line player.

This is how I feel. I don't really know if he would be great on the top line. You can throw stats out all you want but stats can be shown to prove your point but until you actually see it you won't know.

As for SHOULD he have been playing on the top 2 lines? This team finished #1 in the league in 08 and won the Cup with Hudler on the 4th line pretty much. Last year they finished #3 in the league and lost in game 7 of the Cup Finals with him on the 3rd line. I don't care about HIS stats but this team won with him in that 3rd or 4th line/PP role. So I liked him there. I said it before, on certain teams guys have roles and that was his on this team. If he didn't like his role and that along with the money is why he left then so be it. But I'm not gonna second guess it and say he should have played more to keep him now. One Cup and if the team was healthy probably another one.

[egroen 384]

My eyes tell me Hudler was usually the offensive catalyst on his line -- and that includes when he plays with Filppula.

The stats back me up on this:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/200809play...0.php#esoffwith

Hudler's most common linemates, at even strength, were Filppula (447 min), Samuelsson (290 min) and Cleary (167 min) or Kopeky (161 min).

Every single one of them scored more with Hudler than they did away from him. In fact, going down the list, almost every single forward on the Wings scored at a much higher clip playing WITH hudler than when they played away from him. -- These numbers are all at even strength, keep in mind.

Hudler flat-out made whomever he was playing with productive. Whether he was on the 4th line, or even with his limited minutes with Hossa, Datsyu and Zetterberg. At even strength. Almost the exact opposite is true with Filppula -- most players were more productive AWAY from Filppula than they were with him -- the lone exception to that is Hudler himelf.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/200809play...5.php#esoffwith

Hudler and Filppula make great linemates -- which makes sense. Filppula is strong defensively, has speed and can carry the puck into the offensive zone, where then Hudler can make things happen. Their strengths and weaknesses fit together like a jig-saw puzzle. Interestingly enough, goals against Filppula + Hudler is extremely low as well.

The high clips at which Datsyuk, Hossa and Zetterberg all scored with Hudler also strongly indicates that he would do very well on top lines.

Edited July 20, 2009 by egroen

[Echolalia 2,961]

Edit: nevermind, sorry for unnecessary bump.

In any event, his arbitration date is next week.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Echolalia

[Guest micah]

Every single one of them scored more with Hudler than they did away from him. In fact, going down the list, almost every single forward on the Wings scored at a much higher clip playing WITH hudler than when they played away from him. -- These numbers are all at even strength, keep in mind.

What you're saying is, Hudler sucks so bad that other players find themselves having to pick up their game when he's on the ice, right?

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

I actually have a hard time believing that most teams in the league are as open minded as the Wings and a lot of them probably would not have a 5'8 182 lb Euro who just can't skate fast enough as a permanent fixture on their top-6, let alone their top line, no matter how skilled he is or how many points he had as a red wing, the team that apparently makes players look better than they are. I suspect that a lot of bottom feeder teams wouldn't even get past the vitals as well as the scouting report on his skating ability and just dismiss him as "too small and slow."

...Did that glass of water just rumble?

i think hudler's too small and slow. but we shouldn't make fun of him, he's vertically challenged. he is a midget and he's not allowed in the deep end of the pool