Yzerman or Lidstrom

[Doc Holiday 0]

Yzerman, and that is no question.

It is incredibly unfair to put Lidstrom against a captain like Yzerman, who TAUGHT him everything there is to be a leader. This entire question makes Lidstrom seem so unworthy it's not even funny.

[egroen 384]

I have to say Yzerman. For this simple reason.

If I look at the top centers of all-time, I am looking at perhaps Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Esposito, and Beliveau.

You're really missing a lot.

Arguments can be made that Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, Morenz, Mikita, Esposito, Clarke, Messier, Trottier, Lalonde, Schmidt and Sakic were all better "all-time" than Yzerman.

If I look at the top five defensemen of all-time, I am looking at perhaps Orr, Bourque, Lidstrom, Shore, and Kelly.

There are arguments Orr, Shore, Harvey, Bourque, Potvin and Kelly are all ahead of Lidstrom.

By the way - I am not saying I agree with all those arguments

These lists might be slightly different if I were to put some extended time and thought into it, but the point is this: Lidstrom, like most of the others listed, spent more time than not dominating his position on great teams. Also, the trio of Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman is the only situation where players listed here spent extended time competing directly. Yzerman, unlike any of the other players listed, spent his prime on a team where his presence or absence directly determined the fate of the team. When it came to other forwards on the team, Yzerman was stuck playing with a collection of primarily third and fourth liners while Gretzky's Oilers saw first liners ending up on the third line. Lemieux's Penguins spent some years with few other offensively talented forwards, but Lemieux almost never saw time without talented teammates.

Imagine what kind of team the Wings would have had if Detroit had a skilled second line center, and solid scoring wingers on the top two lines? Yzerman might have scored closer to 80+ goals and 200 points if he were playing with linemates who actually possessed some level of talent more than your average third liner.

I think there is a good case to be made that Yzerman would have seen higher point totals in the 80s with a better team, but not nearly to such an extent as your example. Plop '89 Yzerman onto the mid-90s Wings and he might actually score less points. In '89 almost all of Detroit's offense went through Yzerman and he was double-shifted almost every game and received an obscene amount of ice time and power play time. With so many other offensive options in the mid-90s a coach simply would not play Yzerman as much (much like Datsyuk today), and would utilize his other scoring threats much more. For instance, I have a feeling Datsyuk on that '89 team would score more points than he does now (or if you put Datsyuk on a lesser team), even taking the different scoring eras into account.

[Stiffy 0]

While we are at it, could someone answer me this? In terms of their impact on the world and humanity, who was the greatest monster of all time. Godzilla or Gamera?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Yzerman:

--> Without question, one of the top 10 forwards to ever play the game.

--> Certainly one of the top 3 of his era (overshadowed by Lemieux and Gretzky).

--> Arguably the greatest leader in hockey history. Some assholes would say Messier, my counter is to force them to watch him skate around in 02 on a knee that was experimentally sawn in half. I'd make them look at Yzerman's face as he struggled to through unbelievable pain. Oh, and he was damn good on one leg too-- he was the best Canadian on the ice in the 02 Olympics.

--> Lead the Detroit Red Wings organization out of the dark-ages of the Dead Wing era.

--> One of the classiest guys to lace up a pair of skates. A man who suffered, bleed, lost and most often-- Won all in the name of his adopted town-- Detroit.

--> Sits 6th overall in points.

--> Numerous awards including the 1998 Conn Smythe.

--> Out played at times by Fedorov, but certainly the best forward on his team over the span of his career.

Lidstrom:

--> Without question, one of the top 3 defensemen of all time. Considered the 2nd greatest by most.

--> The greatest defenseman of his era. Dominated his position for more than a decade.

--> First European to win the Conn Smythe.

--> First European to captain his team to a Stanley Cup.

--> One of the classiest guys to lace up a pair of skates (seeing a theme with recent Red Wing greats?)

--> The corner stone of 4 Stanley Cup teams and the only modern dynasty (97-02)

--> 6 Norris Trophies (3rd all time, needs to win one this season to really knock our socks off )

--> Winner of the 02 Conn Smythe.

--> Best positional D-man of all time, possibly the best hockey mind in the history of the game (his game is 90% cerebral)

--> One of the most under-appreciated superstars of all time due to his subtle, flawless but not-so-flashy style of play.

--> Few players have dominated their era as completely as Lidstrom.

--> Best European player in the history of hockey according to The Hockey News.

Hmmm... so who is the more important NHL player from a historical perspective? Lidstrom. He's mentioned right beside Orr when people talk about the best defensemen in hockey history.

Who's more important to the Detroit Red Wings franchise? Yzerman, but only by a hair. Yzerman's importance is so far reaching it's hard to overstate it. Without Stevie it's arguable that the 08 Cup win wouldn't have happened. Yzerman was the role model for nearly every player in that locker room and his quiet dedication and self-sacrifice molded players like Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Osgood. On the ice I'd argue that Lidstrom was more important. Off the ice it's definitely Yzerman. This is a tough call.

[Dano33 41]

Let me first say I am a HUGE YZerman fan, always have been. I remember the day he was drafted, I was so glad we got him instead of LaFontaine falling to us, with that being said, I have to put a different angle on this debate. While you state that Yzerman completely turned this franchise around, and another user stated that without Yzerman we have no Cups in 97/98/02. I have repectfully disagree with you guys. Sure Yzerman was a great player and the organization TRIED to build around him, I say tried because you look at all the failures that lead us to here. Probert, Sheppard, Klima, Sharples, BUrr, Houda, Murphy (Joe that is,) Racine, Graves, Cheveldae.... Sure they tried, but it wasn't until little entry draft in 1989 the REALLY turned this franchise around. Sure, the Wings had above par regular seasons but other than a couple of lucky runs to the Campbell Conferene Finals, most the time the Wings were first round and out. Missing the 1990 playoffs all together. I would say the likes of Fedorov, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Osgood, LaPointe and Kozlov turned this franchise around and molded it into what it is today. Sure, they kept Yzerman around, but as another user eluded to, he was almost traded after the 1994 playoff debacle. I cannot think of once when Lidstrom and trade were ever mentioned in the same sentence.

They have both had their impact on this team. Steve Yzerman rescued it from fan oblivion with his flashy play in the 80's. He generated ALOT of fan support, but it wasn't until LIdstrom and Fedorov showed up that turned this franchise from a playoff pretender to Stanley Cup Champions. This current dynasty team you see today was built around Lidstrom and Fedorov's impact, not Steve Yzerman's. So, we'll never know if the Wings would have won without Yzerman or LIdstrom individually, but think it is fairly certain that if this team never took a chance on drafting Lidstrom and Fedorov/Konstantinov we wold NOT have 4 Stanley Cups in the last 12 years...

Yzerman's presence saved this franchise, Lidstrom's turned it into a winner...

I think this may go against the rest of your post. If Yzerman hadn't saved the franchise, the organization may not have been in the position to find or draft Lidstrom. I know that is all very subjective, but without Yzerman, we may have been witnesses of an entirely different team than what we saw for the last 25 years.

[Barrie 900]

Yzerman, no question.

[Nev 1,085]

Great thread, with some really great posts.

On the ice I'd argue that Lidstrom was more important. Off the ice it's definitely Yzerman

Gotta agree with that. Lidstrom is unquestionably the better player. He's the 2nd best defenceman of all time. As the Wings rose to dominance in the 90s Yzerman was only the 2nd best centre on his team.

Yzerman gave the Wings respectability, and gave the fans hope. But try not to look at this with too much hindsight. People forget the **** storms after the '94 debacle, the '95 disapointment, the '96 upset.......am I the only one to remember the calls for Yzerman to be traded, the constant "we'll never win anything with Yzerman as captain" refrains? The rumours of the trade to Ottowa that nearly happened. Fast forward to '02 on he leads the wings to another cup on one leg (my enduring image of Yzerman will be that playoffs, grimacing in pain every time he was knocked to the ice and having to use his stick to get himself back on his skates).

Yzerman was the man who built the character of this franchise, the quiet, steely determination that also characterises Lidstrom and Zetterberg. But as another poster pointed out, it was Lidstroms arrival that turned us into a contender every single one of the last 15 years.

When Yzerman retired we had Datsyuk and Zetterberg waiting in the wings. When Lidstrom retires.......I'm scared.

[TheDetroitRedWings 286]

Blasphemy isn't it?

Yes, yes it is. Apparently you were not a fan of the Red Wings in the early 80s. Steve Yzerman single-handedly put this franchise on his back and took them out of the "dead wings" era. Lidstrom has also done a lot for us in his career. But come on dude. This isn't even close.

Steve Yzerman is God.

End of story.

[NomadFromKazoo 42]

Which of the two had a bigger impact on the history of this franchise?

You screwed up the question by asking who had the bigger impact on the organization. You should have asked who was the better player. The first can't be reasonably debated, Stevie Y was the leader in the creation of the modern Wings who went to 6 finals and won 4 Cups. Who is a better player can certainly be debated, though I still go to the same answer. But you can't really go wrong arguing for Lidstrom.

[UP Wings Fan 0]

Your question was this:

"Which of the two had a bigger impact on the history of this franchise?"

Not who has a bigger impact on the game day in day out.

Steve Yzerman has had a significantly larger impact on the history of the Red Wings franchise. It took Yzerman taking the lead in changing the style of play of the Red Wings forwards before they became legitimate cup contenders year after year. Without the unselfish sacrifice of Yzerman, the club would have never become a top defensive team. It took this shift in mindset of the Wings forwards to generate this, and Yzerman set the example.

Defense Wins Championships! And that takes a total team effort!

[StormJH1 231]

I agree 100%. Lidstrom is my favorite player of all time but there is no question Yzerman means more to the franchise.

Huge Lidstrom fan, but I look at it this way.

In 1983, the Minnesota North Stars drafted Brian Lawton #1 overall, when they could've drafted Steve Yzerman, Pat LaFontaine, or Tom Barasso:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1983e.html

The team went onto be extremely medicore for the next 10 seasons, making it to one Cup Final (where they got slaughtered by Pittsburgh) and then getting sold and moving to Dallas.

Suppose that Lidstrom had been in the '83 draft instead of the '89 draft. Which player--Yzerman or Lidstrom--do you feel would've been more likely to turn around the fate of the North Stars? I don't think there's any question that it's Yzerman. It's a little bit unfair because in the 80's (as in the 90's) there was a stigma against European captains, and it's easier for a Canadian boy like Yzerman to become a "fan favorite" than it would've been for Lidstrom. But you HAVE to factor those things into it, and my gut tells me that there's no way the North Stars leave Minnesota if they had drafted Yzerman. Yzerman would've energized the fanbase and willed them to win. The North Stars had great players like Ciccarelli and Larry Murphy at times, but this wasn't enough.

Sorry for the out of context example, but it's so hard to evaluate Lidstrom and Yzerman separate from the Red Wings aura and all of the other great players that helped us win championships (most notably Fedorov, Shanahan, and Osgood) that I find it helps to think out-of-the-box.

[StormJH1 231]

Let me first say I am a HUGE YZerman fan, always have been. I remember the day he was drafted, I was so glad we got him instead of LaFontaine falling to us, with that being said, I have to put a different angle on this debate. While you state that Yzerman completely turned this franchise around, and another user stated that without Yzerman we have no Cups in 97/98/02. I have repectfully disagree with you guys. Sure Yzerman was a great player and the organization TRIED to build around him, I say tried because you look at all the failures that lead us to here. Probert, Sheppard, Klima, Sharples, BUrr, Houda, Murphy (Joe that is,) Racine, Graves, Cheveldae.... Sure they tried, but it wasn't until little entry draft in 1989 the REALLY turned this franchise around. Sure, the Wings had above par regular seasons but other than a couple of lucky runs to the Campbell Conferene Finals, most the time the Wings were first round and out. Missing the 1990 playoffs all together. I would say the likes of Fedorov, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Osgood, LaPointe and Kozlov turned this franchise around and molded it into what it is today. Sure, they kept Yzerman around, but as another user eluded to, he was almost traded after the 1994 playoff debacle. I cannot think of once when Lidstrom and trade were ever mentioned in the same sentence.

First, thank you for giving a nod to Kozlov, who is kind of the forgotten Red Wing in all this dynasty talk because he was gone in the Hasek trade, and therefore, not a part of the 2002 Cup. But he was critically important to this team, especially in the playoffs. So many people overlooked him because he was the "other Russian guy" compared to Fedorov, but he was kinda like the "Johan Franzen" guy on those 97 and 98 teams. And it's telling that he's been stuck in Atlanta for 6 seasons now, but still put up a 76-point season as Fedorov is winding down his career (Fedorov is 2 or 3 years older).

I did say that Yzerman was the more improtant player, and I stand by that. But there is an element of "Isiah Thomas" to the way Detroiters view Yzerman, which is to say that he is the guy that everyone liked and got credit for everything, but there were quieter guys (Lidstrom; Dumars) always in the background, without which none of it would likely have been possible.

I don't even think this is a question without the '08 Cup and '09 Finals entering into the equation. Also, you have to understand that while Lidstrom was generally considered our "best" defenseman at most times throughout his career, the 97/98 Wings were viewed as much of a defensive "system" team as they were a collection of Hall of Famers on defense. Lidstrom was appreciated back then, but he also played next to Paul Coffey for several years, and had guys like Konstantinov and Larry Murphy helping him for the early Cups. It wasn't until those guys left, and after Lidstrom put in many more impressive years that I think it was fully understood how important Lidstrom was. I make this point only to suggest that a comparison of Yzerman and Lidstrom in 1997 is probably unfair, since they were at different points in their careers at that time.

[zetterbergfan 23]

Yes, yes it is. Apparently you were not a fan of the Red Wings in the early 80s. Steve Yzerman single-handedly put this franchise on his back and took them out of the "dead wings" era. Lidstrom has also done a lot for us in his career. But come on dude. This isn't even close.

Steve Yzerman is God.

End of story.

I have been a Wings fan since about 1982-83...but I was 8 years old at the time. I do fully realize what Yzerman meant to the team at the time. He was my favorite player, of course. I think he single handedly brought this team back to respectability and made them competitive. My main point is that without Lidstrom, I don't think the Wings win the four Stanley Cups. Without those championships, what would Yzerman's legacy be? What would the legacy of the Red Wings in the 90's and 00's be?

I asked exactly the question I meant to ask. Which one had a greater impact on the history of the franchise? Being the primary cog in the team's defense for four Stanley Cups is a huge impact.

Edited August 4, 2009 by zetterbergfan

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

My main point is that without Lidstrom, I don't think the Wings win the four Stanley Cups.

A pretty fair suggestion. But you could say the same for Yzerman and Fedorov. Doubtful any of them would be champs without each other.