Best All-Time Red Wings Line

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

I went with Bucyk over Shanahan because he has similar career stats to Shanahan, was a devastating hitter but still managed to win the Lady Byng twice. Bucyk also played in an era with much lower scoring, so Shanahan's numbers could be considered inflated somewhat when comparing the two.

Robitaille completely dominated the left wing position for close to a decade. Hard to argue Shanahan (or Bucyk for that matter) ahead of him.

What could Robitaille do as a player that Shanny couldn't do? Yeah, Robitaille was good in front of the net, but Shanny could do that too, except he had a better shot, and could also fight and be a physical force.

Also, Robitaille's numbers ballooned from playing with Gretzky in LA.

Furthermore, how is Shanny not better than Lindsay, Delvecchio, Larionov, Bathgate and Abel?

Edited August 26, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[egroen 384]

What could Robitaille do as a player that Shanny couldn't do? Yeah, Robitaille was good in front of the net, but Shanny could do that too, except he had a better shot, and could also fight and be a physical force.

Also, Robitaille's numbers ballooned from playing with Gretzky in LA.

Furthermore, how is Shanny not better than Lindsay, Delvecchio, Larionov, Bathgate and Abel?

Are you kidding me? Ted Lindsay is the only player in the history of the NHL whom has led the league in goals, assists, points and penalty minutes (Shanahan has done none not a single one of that).

Delvecchio has been top 10 in the league in points 11 times (Shanahan has 2), Abel has him beat in everything but penalty minutes (and a Hart to boot) and Bathgate has been top 5 in the leauge for points 8 times (Shanahan? 0 times).

And Larionov is the greatest russian two-way forward ever behind only Fedorov.

Edited August 26, 2009 by egroen

[Uncle Danny 155]

Are you kidding me? Ted Lindsay is the only player in the history of the NHL whom has led the league in goals, assists, points and penalty minutes.

Delvecchio has been top 10 in the league in points 11 times (Shanahan has 2), Abel has him beat in everything but penalty minutes (and a Hart to boot) and Bathgate has been top 5 in the leauge for points 8 times (Shanahan? 0 times).

And Larionov is the greatest russian two-way forward ever behind only Fedorov.

Thank you, Egroen. I can start breathing again.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Are you kidding me? Ted Lindsay is the only player in the history of the NHL whom has led the league in goals, assists, points and penalty minutes.

Delvecchio has been top 10 in the league in points 11 times (Shanahan has 2), Abel has him beat in everything but penalty minutes (and a Hart to boot) and Bathgate has been top 5 in the leauge for points 8 times (Shanahan? 0 times).

And Larionov is the greatest russian two-way forward ever behind only Fedorov.

Shanny's points per game is slightly better than Lindsay, Abel or Delvecchio.

Yeah, those guys were league leaders in stats, but it was a 6 team league. Shanny could never lead the league in all those stats, since he played in the same era as Gretzky and Lemieux. Points per game is more telling than whether they led the league in stats.

Other than Gordie Howe, Shanny is the best all-around power forward in league history over a career span.

Also, Bathgate was known a great goal scorer, but Shanny's goals per game is higher than his.

Larionov is the hardest to judge, since he played overseas in his prime, so I'll hold off on that.

Edited August 26, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[eva unit zero 271]

What could Robitaille do as a player that Shanny couldn't do? Yeah, Robitaille was good in front of the net, but Shanny could do that too, except he had a better shot, and could also fight and be a physical force.

Also, Robitaille's numbers ballooned from playing with Gretzky in LA.

Furthermore, how is Shanny not better than Lindsay, Delvecchio, Larionov, Bathgate and Abel?

How is Shanny not better than Bathgate?

Well, let's see. Bathgate was a RW and played 19 seasons from 53 to 71, plus two before that split between the NHL and WHL. He had two first team selections and two second-team selections in that time. Let's take a look at the other right wingers who got All-Star selections in that time-frame:

Gordie Howe (10 first, 7 second, 17 total)

Maurice Richard (2 first, 3 second, 5 total)

Bernie Geoffrion (1 first, 2 second, 3 total)

Kenny Wharram (2 first, 2 total)

Yvon Cournoyer (2 second, 2 total)

Ken Hodge (1 first, 1 total)

Claude Provost (1 first, 1 total)

Bobby Rousseau (1 second, 1 total)

Rod Gilbert (1 second, 1 total)

John McKenzie (1 second, 1 total)

So looking at the guys who Bathgate played against, nobody during his career except Howe got more first team, and nobody but Howe and Richard more second team selections at RW, and only those two more total selections. An elite group to say the least.

Now let's look at Shanahan:

He has played from 87-88 to the present, Shanahan has earned two first-team selections and one second-team selection. Without bringing up the numbers, he is beaten soundly by Robitaille. He is also beaten by Ovechkin, Naslund, and Leclair. Kevin Stevens and Keith Tkachuk are comparable as well. I would say Shanahan has played against weaker competition and still come out worse than Bathgate did. That would tend to mean he's not better.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

How is Shanny not better than Bathgate?

Well, let's see. Bathgate was a RW and played 19 seasons from 53 to 71, plus two before that split between the NHL and WHL. He had two first team selections and two second-team selections in that time. Let's take a look at the other right wingers who got All-Star selections in that time-frame:

Gordie Howe (10 first, 7 second, 17 total)

Maurice Richard (2 first, 3 second, 5 total)

Bernie Geoffrion (1 first, 2 second, 3 total)

Kenny Wharram (2 first, 2 total)

Yvon Cournoyer (2 second, 2 total)

Ken Hodge (1 first, 1 total)

Claude Provost (1 first, 1 total)

Bobby Rousseau (1 second, 1 total)

Rod Gilbert (1 second, 1 total)

John McKenzie (1 second, 1 total)

So looking at the guys who Bathgate played against, nobody during his career except Howe got more first team, and nobody but Howe and Richard more second team selections at RW, and only those two more total selections. An elite group to say the least.

Now let's look at Shanahan:

He has played from 87-88 to the present, Shanahan has earned two first-team selections and one second-team selection. Without bringing up the numbers, he is beaten soundly by Robitaille. He is also beaten by Ovechkin, Naslund, and Leclair. Kevin Stevens and Keith Tkachuk are comparable as well. I would say Shanahan has played against weaker competition and still come out worse than Bathgate did. That would tend to mean he's not better.

This is the problem with comparing players from different eras.

You're going to look at how good a guy was for his era, while I'm going to judge them cross-era. As I've already pointed out, Shanny has a higher goals per game average than Bathgate.

The fact that Shanny didn't make the first or second team a certain amount of times doesn't mean much, when you consider that he along with Robitaille is the best left winger of his era by far. A guy like Leclair or Tkachuk isn't as good as Shanny career wise, which makes their all-star selections look meaningless. Shanny has had way better consistency than Naslund, Leclair, Tkachuk or pretty much anyone from his era. Those guys had a few good years and fizzled out.

Edited August 26, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[egroen 384]

Shanny's points per game is slightly better than Lindsay, Abel or Delvecchio.

Heh... adjust it for era and it is not even close.

Yeah, those guys were league leaders in stats, but it was a 6 team league. Shanny could never lead the league in all those stats, since he played in the same era as Gretzky and Lemieux. Points per game is more telling than whether they led the league in stats.

The best players in the world played for the NHL during the Original 6, a period which enjoyed the highest degree of competition only being approached now (5 times the teams; 5 times the hockey playing population worldwide; but still less players per team).

Gordie Howe best represents just how good the Original 6 was:

At the age of 41, Gordie Howe broke 100 points for the first time in 1969, post-expansion (12 Teams) and he was only 3rd in points, well behind Espositio with 126.

Now do you really think Gordie Howe was a better player at the age of 41 than in his 20s or even 30s? Howe led the league (6 Teams) as a 23 year-old in 1951 in goals, assists as well as points - with only 86 points - but ahead of the likes of "Rocket" Richard and over a 30% margin above his closest competitor.

Other than Gordie Howe, Shanny is the best all-around power forward in league history over a career span.

Shanahan is up there... but Lindsay? Richard? Clarke? Messier? And being a power forward does not by default make you better than the likes of Delvecchio, Abel, Larionov and Bathgate.

Edited August 26, 2009 by egroen

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Heh... adjust it for era and it is not even close.

The best players in the world played for the NHL during the Original 6, a period which enjoyed the highest degree of competition only being approached now (5 times the teams; 5 times the hockey playing population worldwide; but still less players per team).

Gordier Howe best represents just how good the Original 6 was:

At the age of 41, Gordie Howe broke 100 points for the first time in 1969, post-expansion (12 Teams) and he was only 3rd in points, well behind Espositio with 126.

Now do you really think Gordie Howe was a better player at the age of 41 than in his 20s or even 30s? Howe led the league (6 Teams) as a 23 year-old in 1951 in goals, assists as well as points - with only 86 points - but ahead of the likes of "Rocket" Richard and over a 30% margin above his closest competitor.

Shanahan is up there... but Lindsay? Richard? Clarke? Messier? And being a power forward does not by default make you better than the likes of Delvecchio, Abel, Larionov and Bathgate.

How exactly do you adjust points per game per era?

That's what I mean in my post above when I said that it's hard to compare players from different eras, because there's two ways of doing it. I look at it points per game, while you have your method.

For instance, Howe and Richard's points per game in their prime is way better than Shanny's , so the era has nothing to do with that. With other players, though, I'm not going to immediately put them ahead of Shanny just because it was a different era.

Also, you have to compare skill levels. How many guys back then had Shanny's shot power and one-timer, where he scored so many goals. Do I just assume that he wouldn't be as good at it if he played back then?

[eva unit zero 271]

This is the problem with comparing players from different eras.

You're going to look at how good a guy was for his era, while I'm going to judge them cross-era. As I've already pointed out, Shanny has a higher goals per game average than Bathgate.

The fact that Shanny didn't make the first or second team a certain amount of times doesn't mean much, when you consider that he along with Robitaille is the best left winger of his era by far. A guy like Leclair or Tkachuk isn't as good as Shanny career wise, which makes their all-star selections look meaningless. Shanny has had way better consistency than Naslund, Leclair, Tkachuk or pretty much anyone from his era. Those guys had a few good years and fizzled out.

Shanny was a good player. but he was simply not as good as Andy Bathgate. Sorry, a guy who is competing on par in people's minds with Gordie Howe during Howe's prime? That's a player who is better than Brendan Shanahan. Think what you want...but if you think Shanahan is better than Bathgate was, you're wrong.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Shanny was a good player. but he was simply not as good as Andy Bathgate. Sorry, a guy who is competing on par in people's minds with Gordie Howe during Howe's prime? That's a player who is better than Brendan Shanahan. Think what you want...but if you think Shanahan is better than Bathgate was, you're wrong.

In who's mind was he competing with Gordie Howe? I've never seen Bathgate on anyone's top 10 all time players list.

Like I said, I look at it points per game, and I don't see how Bathgate was better. Also, like I said, it's too difficult to compare cross-eras and assume that a certain player would or wouldn't be as good if he played in that different era.

[egroen 384]

How exactly do you adjust points per game per era?

That's what I mean in my post above when I said that it's hard to compare players from different eras, because there's two ways of doing it. I look at it points per game, while you have your method.

For instance, Howe and Richard's points per game in their prime is way better than Shanny's , so the era has nothing to do with that. With other players, though, I'm not going to immediately put them ahead of Shanny just because it was a different era.

Also, you have to compare skill levels. How many guys back then had Shanny's shot power and one-timer, where he scored so many goals. Do I just assume that he wouldn't be as good at it if he played back then?

There are a number of ways to adjust for era, but the easiest way is simply to look at average goals per game in a given year and then to adjust accordingly. For instance, in the 1980s, with the open style of play GPG actually broke 8. In the deadpuck era, it was as low as 5, and even lower in the Original 6 Period. Obviously it was a lot easier to score 100+ points in the 80s than it was during the clutch & grab era.

Here is a list of the GPG per year:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

For instance, Datsyuk's 97 points this past year (5.83 GPG) is worth the equivelent of 120 points as recently as 1993 (7.25 GPG / 5.83 = 1.24 * 97 = 120). 21 players scored 100 or more points in 1993 - only 3 did this past year. You can get more accurate by adding to the variables (for instance, there were less games played during the Original 6), but you'll get reasonably accurate results simply looking at average GPG per year.

Skill is relative to their peers at the same time. If Gordie Howe was born in 1980 and enjoyed the same training, nutrition and equipment as modern players, I have a feeling he would be dominating the league today just as much as he was during the Original 6 era. IE. Scoring 140+ points.

Edited August 26, 2009 by egroen

[Guest blueadams]

I'm twenty-two. I didn't see gordie howe, ted lindsay, terry sawchuck, etc. I'm just going to go with the guys that I did see...

Zetterberg-Yzerman-Federov

Lidstrom-Konstantinov

Hasek

...really, there's only one question mark for me. hank or pav?

[eva unit zero 271]

In who's mind was he competing with Gordie Howe? I've never seen Bathgate on anyone's top 10 all time players list.

Like I said, I look at it points per game, and I don't see how Bathgate was better. Also, like I said, it's too difficult to compare cross-eras and assume that a certain player would or wouldn't be as good if he played in that different era.

In 1958, 1959, 1962, and 1963 Andy Bathgate was named to either the First Team or the Second Team, with Gordie Howe on the other. In 1960 and 1961, Bernie Geoffrion was named with Howe. So Andy Bathgate took two of the First Team selections in that six years, with Geoffrion taking one and Howe taking three. Howe took three Second Team selections, with Bathgate named twice and Geoffrion named once.

In other words, Bathgate was considered on par or close to Howe's level for that period of time, and was consistently a great player at a similar level for a significant period beyond that. Bathgate also had a nagging knee injury which he suffered in juniors and which continued to bother him throughout his career; he played his entire career with a steel plate in his left knee.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

There are a number of ways to adjust for era, but the easiest way is simply to look at average goals per game in a given year and then to adjust accordingly. For instance, in the 1980s, with the open style of play GPG actually broke 8. In the deadpuck era, it was as low as 5, and even lower in the Original 6 Period. Obviously it was a lot easier to score 100+ points in the 80s than it was during the clutch & grab era.

Here is a list of the GPG per year:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

For instance, Datsyuk's 97 points this past year (5.83 GPG) is worth the equivelent of 120 points as recently as 1993 (7.25 GPG / 5.83 = 1.24 * 97 = 120). 21 players scored 100 or more points in 1993 - only 3 did this past year. You can get more accurate by adding to the variables (for instance, there were less games played during the Original 6), but you'll get reasonably accurate results simply looking at average GPG per year.

Skill is relative to their peers at the same time. If Gordie Howe was born in 1980 and enjoyed the same training, nutrition and equipment as modern players, I have a feeling he would be dominating the league today just as much as he was during the Original 6 era. IE. Scoring 140+ points.

Thanks for the explanation.

I guess that's one way of doing it. Tomorrow, I'll plug Shanny into your formula to see where he ranks.

[puckbags 863]

In 1958, 1959, 1962, and 1963 Andy Bathgate was named to either the First Team or the Second Team, with Gordie Howe on the other. In 1960 and 1961, Bernie Geoffrion was named with Howe. So Andy Bathgate took two of the First Team selections in that six years, with Geoffrion taking one and Howe taking three. Howe took three Second Team selections, with Bathgate named twice and Geoffrion named once.

In other words, Bathgate was considered on par or close to Howe's level for that period of time, and was consistently a great player at a similar level for a significant period beyond that. Bathgate also had a nagging knee injury which he suffered in juniors and which continued to bother him throughout his career; he played his entire career with a steel plate in his left knee.

Whether Bathgate was better than Shanny or other players isn't really what is bothering me here. His last season in the league was 70-71 I believe and judging by your profile you weren't even close to alive at this point of history. So taking a wikipedia article and copy and pasting it on this site with a bunch of stats and career awards doesnt have much merit when you never even saw the guy play.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Whether Bathgate was better than Shanny or other players isn't really what is bothering me here. His last season in the league was 70-71 I believe and judging by your profile you weren't even close to alive at this point of history. So taking a wikipedia article and copy and pasting it on this site with a bunch of stats and career awards doesnt have much merit when you never even saw the guy play.

Well, the NHL has been around since 1917... so, by your definition, the only people who can judge would be people born around 1910, so they would be 7 when the NHL began and can truly remember every single player in NHL history...

[egroen 384]

Whether Bathgate was better than Shanny or other players isn't really what is bothering me here. His last season in the league was 70-71 I believe and judging by your profile you weren't even close to alive at this point of history. So taking a wikipedia article and copy and pasting it on this site with a bunch of stats and career awards doesnt have much merit when you never even saw the guy play.

I have rarely seen Ovechkin play, and certainly not a large enough pool of games to form a well-rounded analysis of his play.

Yet I still feel pretty safe in stating he is one of the best in the league - based on stats, opinions from those that do watch him and individual awards.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Are you kidding me? Ted Lindsay is the only player in the history of the NHL whom has led the league in goals, assists, points and penalty minutes (Shanahan has done none not a single one of that).

Delvecchio has been top 10 in the league in points 11 times (Shanahan has 2), Abel has him beat in everything but penalty minutes (and a Hart to boot) and Bathgate has been top 5 in the leauge for points 8 times (Shanahan? 0 times).

And Larionov is the greatest russian two-way forward ever behind only Fedorov.

if i'm not mistaken, robitaille also played in pittsburgh when lemieux and jagr were in their primes.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

if i'm not mistaken, robitaille also played in pittsburgh when lemieux and jagr were in their primes.

Robitaille sucked in Pittsburgh, even though he scored the game tying goal in game 7 of the SCF against the Blackhawks in the movie "Sudden Death". At the buzzer I may add.

Robitaille's numbers benefitted tremendously from playing on the same line with Gretzky and Kurri in LA. Hell, Tomas Kopecky could score 80 points playing on that line.

Edited August 26, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Robitaille's numbers benefitted tremendously from playing on the same line with Gretzky and Kurri in LA. Hell, Tomas Kopecky could score 80 points playing on that line.

They called him Lucky for a reason.... that being said, I always thought Robitaille was tremendously overrated... and in terms of all-time squad, I think both Zetterberg and Datsyuk are above him in terms of pedigree, importance, and accomplishments. Robitaille has never been in the running for any major individual awards (minus the Calder), and was crap during his Detroit years (especially the pathetic 02-03 season).... with Ovechkin around I don't even think Lucky Luc is in the discussion of best Left-wing ever either.

[eva unit zero 271]

They called him Lucky for a reason.... that being said, I always thought Robitaille was tremendously overrated... and in terms of all-time squad, I think both Zetterberg and Datsyuk are above him in terms of pedigree, importance, and accomplishments. Robitaille has never been in the running for any major individual awards (minus the Calder), and was crap during his Detroit years (especially the pathetic 02-03 season).... with Ovechkin around I don't even think Lucky Luc is in the discussion of best Left-wing ever either.

Robitaille came seven points short of doubling Gretzky's point total when they played together in 1992-93. Robitaille set records for goals (63) and points (125) by a left winger that year; Ovechkin has since broken the goals record but Robitaille still holds the points record. Such a terrible player who benefitted from Gretzky as a King, huh. Given that his best year was when Gretzky missed half the season, right?

Robitaille was a great player. He had the opportunity to play with other great players, but he himself was a great player. He was not an elite level player except perhaps for a couple of seasons, but he was a great player for a long time. He was nearly a point per game despite playing on the lower lines in Pittsburgh and was a 40-goal per-game pace in his time there. He returned to LA and played four years there, and over the four years was nearly a point per game player for the whole time, and was better than a point per game twice, topping out at 88 points. He scored 35+ goals three times in those four seasons, and played 57 games in the other.

No, Robitaille isn't in the discussion for the best left winger ever; neither is Shanahan, nor are Kariya, Tkachuk, Leclair, or Goulet, or Kevin Stevens, or anyone who excelled in the past 30 years for any period of time. That discussion is pretty much Lindsay vs Hull and will remain so for a few more years until Ovechkin proves whether he belongs in it. I'd say Ovechkin probably breaks into that discussion soon.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Robitaille came seven points short of doubling Gretzky's point total when they played together in 1992-93. Robitaille set records for goals (63) and points (125) by a left winger that year; Ovechkin has since broken the goals record but Robitaille still holds the points record. Such a terrible player who benefitted from Gretzky as a King, huh. Given that his best year was when Gretzky missed half the season, right?

Robitaille was a great player. He had the opportunity to play with other great players, but he himself was a great player. He was not an elite level player except perhaps for a couple of seasons, but he was a great player for a long time. He was nearly a point per game despite playing on the lower lines in Pittsburgh and was a 40-goal per-game pace in his time there. He returned to LA and played four years there, and over the four years was nearly a point per game player for the whole time, and was better than a point per game twice, topping out at 88 points. He scored 35+ goals three times in those four seasons, and played 57 games in the other.

No, Robitaille isn't in the discussion for the best left winger ever; neither is Shanahan, nor are Kariya, Tkachuk, Leclair, or Goulet, or Kevin Stevens, or anyone who excelled in the past 30 years for any period of time. That discussion is pretty much Lindsay vs Hull and will remain so for a few more years until Ovechkin proves whether he belongs in it. I'd say Ovechkin probably breaks into that discussion soon.

No offense to Ted Lindsay, but he isn't in Bobby Hull's league when it comes to greatest all-time left winger.

If he didn't switch to another league, Hull would likely be the all time leading goal scorer in history. He's one of the most important and infamous players in league history and a top 10 all-time guy.

Also, even though Robitaille was a great left winger, he hasn't been on very many Team Canada squads if I'm not mistaken. He's definitely a great player, but far from as good as his stats suggest. Imagine if Shanny in his prime played with Gretzky and Kurri. How many goals you think he'd score?