For the last time...

[AtomicPunk 296]

I think the point to be made here is that the Wings have already planned to move on this season as if Hudler will no longer be a Red Wing. They have made signings to that effect, not holding his spot open. If he comes back, I would not at all be surprised if they just dump him.

[toby91_ca 620]

Have you ever considered why players ask for a NTC in the first place?

Have you? Take this example. Player "x" signs a 5 year contract with team "y" and asks for a NTC. Are they asking for the NTC because they want to make sure that they can't be traded and will be with team "y" for at least the 5 years they signed for? Perhaps, but more often than not, the answer to that question is no. Players ask for NTC's so they can control their movement. They do it to avoid waking up one morning and being told they have to move 3000 miles away. They do it so they can have a say in what team they go to should circumstances arise that suggest a trade is the best option for both sides. Sometimes, trades may get worked out and the team then goes to the player for approval, but often what happens is....team and player speak and agree that a trade is the best option and player agrees to be traded to one of any of the following 10 teams lets say and then the team goes out and negotiates the best possible deal.

EDIT: For clarity, I don't think Stuart should or will be traded, just commenting on the NTC thing.

Edited August 28, 2009 by toby91_ca

[stevkrause 1,247]

Have you? Take this example. Player "x" signs a 5 year contract with team "y" and asks for a NTC. Are they asking for the NTC because they want to make sure that they can't be traded and will be with team "y" for at least the 5 years they signed for? Perhaps, but more often than not, the answer to that question is no. Players ask for NTC's so they can control their movement. They do it to avoid waking up one morning and being told they have to move 3000 miles away. They do it so they can have a say in what team they go to should circumstances arise that suggest a trade is the best option for both sides. Sometimes, trades may get worked out and the team then goes to the player for approval, but often what happens is....team and player speak and agree that a trade is the best option and player agrees to be traded to one of any of the following 10 teams lets say and then the team goes out and negotiates the best possible deal.

EDIT: For clarity, I don't think Stuart should or will be traded, just commenting on the NTC thing.

that's really only partially right - they do it so they have control, but they ALSO do it, moreso because they don't want to be traded. period. Even if it's a reasonable or even nice move, it still takes it's toll to uproot your family and move again... the NTC is asked for because they don't want to leave. having control is just an additional back up, in case the team is hell bent on moving them, then at least they have their choice of where...

and yes, trading Stuart, even in theory, is asinine

[CUJO#31 0]

Ok so two of these have been deleted. I'll try this picture, lol.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Ok so two of these have been deleted. I'll try this picture, lol.

they deleted one of my posts too... the mods we're feeling very nazi yesterday apparently

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Because Hudler was not granted a transfer card by the IIHF and therefore cannot play or practice with Dynamo. Assuming this puts Hudler back on the Wings' roster, then the Wings have fourteen forwards (counting Bertuzzi, Williams, and Eaves of new signings plus Helm, Leino, and all returnees), eight defensemen (including Lilja), and two goaltenders.

If we assume Lilja is going to be on LTIR, then the Wings would be about $2.6m over the cap at that point. 14 forwards, 7 defensemen, 2 goalies. One of Eaves/Helm/Leino probably goes to Grand Rapids. I bet on Eaves and his $500k; that makes it $2.1m over the cap.

So the question is, what players are potentially tradeable that can clear up that kind of space? We'll start with forwards. Hudler is the obvious one to mention. Filppula and Holmstrom are the only others that make that much or more. On defense? You're looking at Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall. Filppula, Hudler, and Kronwall are all young, skilled players who can make up the core of a winning team for a long time. Holmstrom has solid chemistry with Dats and Z but is getting older and declining. Rafalski and Stuart have NTCs.

Who do you trade out of that group? As great of a #4 as Stuart makes, I'd pick him to trade if he were willing to waive his NTC.[/font]

Filppula. If the circumstances played out like you described, I would want Hudler over Fil and the Red Wings would be a better team keeping Stuart. Lebda and Meech as a third pairing is not going to play out well.

[mmamolo 287]

Personalyl I still like Hudler and would want him back, just not this year. I definitely do not want Stuart traded (NTC or not) and I cant see who else they could move. I think if Hudler tries to come back to the Wings now the NHL will step in. Discussions will have to be held because the WIngs were put in a position where they waited as long as they could to fill his spot, signed new ppl, and now may be forced to move other players to fit Hudler back in. Obviously the NHL believes Hudler is still obligated to his NHL franchise but I dont think they'd want to set a precedent with a poor handling of this situation. If the NHL doesn't come to the aid of the Wings, in this particular situation, I think you'll see GMs and Owners upset with how it's handled. The Wings were handcuffed by the Hudler situation and if the NHL is the only entity against Hudler going to the KHL this year (the Wings are not) then if they are they driving force in having Hudler back on the Wings they should aid in figuring out a fair resolution to the Wings roster situation.

[mmamolo 287]

Filppula. If the circumstances played out like you described, I would want Hudler over Fil and the Red Wings would be a better team keeping Stuart. Lebda and Meech as a third pairing is not going to play out well.

Even though at this stage I think I would want Hudler too I dont think we should undervalue the player Filppula can become. Also, the contract struggles with Hudler are an issue. Filppula is a very strong all around player and signed long term. It'd be tough to want to move anyone at this stage to fit Hudler back in, as much as I still do like him and want him in Detroit.

[eva unit zero 271]

and yes, trading Stuart, even in theory, is asinine

Ok, make your decision then. With the 13/8/2 on the Wings roster with Hudler and Lilja included and Eaves moved to Grand Rapids, the Wings are about $3.35m over the cap with 23 players.

So the Wings can trade the following players to clear up the cap overage in one player:

Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Rafalski, Franzen, Stuart

So who of that group would you rather trade than Stuart? Not Lids, Dats, Zetterberg, or Franzen for sure. Some might say Rafalski. But Rafalski, like Stuart, has an NTC. He's also more important to the team. So of course the team would rather trade Stuart first if possible.

Or they can trade any of the following combinations of a forward and a defenseman who on their own would not clear the cap overage and provide enough cap room to put Eaves on the roster so the Wings have a 13/7/2 final roster. I am not going to include Derek Meech here as he makes less than the league minimum, and he can play both forward and defense. I will not include Cleary or Draper because like Stuart they have NTCs. I will also not include anyone signed this offseason.

So which pair of players do you want to see moved instead of Stuart?

Filppula and Lilja (4.25)

Hudler and Lilja (4.125m)

Holmstrom and Kronwall ($5.25m)

Maltby and Kronwall ($3.883)

Well, Kronwall is a better defenseman than Stuart so I know I would rather trade Stuart than Kronwall if I were forced to trade one.

And I would rather have Lilja to step into Stuart's role and have both Filppula and Hudler up front than lose one of them and Lilja and keep Stuart in his spot with a third D pairing of some combo of Lebda/Delmore/Meech.

[egroen 384]

At the very most, Hudler will not be able to take part in any international tournaments... which I imagine will suck, but would he be willing to give up about $6 million dollars in order to play in the Olympics, when he will have another chance in 4 years?

Edited August 28, 2009 by egroen

[stevkrause 1,247]

Ok, make your decision then. With the 13/8/2 on the Wings roster with Hudler and Lilja included and Eaves moved to Grand Rapids, the Wings are about $3.35m over the cap with 23 players.

So the Wings can trade the following players to clear up the cap overage in one player:

Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Rafalski, Franzen, Stuart

So who of that group would you rather trade than Stuart? Not Lids, Dats, Zetterberg, or Franzen for sure. Some might say Rafalski. But Rafalski, like Stuart, has an NTC. He's also more important to the team. So of course the team would rather trade Stuart first if possible.

Or they can trade any of the following combinations of a forward and a defenseman who on their own would not clear the cap overage and provide enough cap room to put Eaves on the roster so the Wings have a 13/7/2 final roster. I am not going to include Derek Meech here as he makes less than the league minimum, and he can play both forward and defense. I will not include Cleary or Draper because like Stuart they have NTCs. I will also not include anyone signed this offseason.

So which pair of players do you want to see moved instead of Stuart?

Filppula and Lilja (4.25)

Hudler and Lilja (4.125m)

Holmstrom and Kronwall ($5.25m)

Maltby and Kronwall ($3.883)

Well, Kronwall is a better defenseman than Stuart so I know I would rather trade Stuart than Kronwall if I were forced to trade one.

And I would rather have Lilja to step into Stuart's role and have both Filppula and Hudler up front than lose one of them and Lilja and keep Stuart in his spot with a third D pairing of some combo of Lebda/Delmore/Meech.

this is the easiest decision of all - HUDLER... if he is dumped back on us... MOVE him...

[stevkrause 1,247]

Ok, make your decision then. With the 13/8/2 on the Wings roster with Hudler and Lilja included and Eaves moved to Grand Rapids, the Wings are about $3.35m over the cap with 23 players.

So the Wings can trade the following players to clear up the cap overage in one player:

Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Rafalski, Franzen, Stuart

So who of that group would you rather trade than Stuart? Not Lids, Dats, Zetterberg, or Franzen for sure. Some might say Rafalski. But Rafalski, like Stuart, has an NTC. He's also more important to the team. So of course the team would rather trade Stuart first if possible.

Or they can trade any of the following combinations of a forward and a defenseman who on their own would not clear the cap overage and provide enough cap room to put Eaves on the roster so the Wings have a 13/7/2 final roster. I am not going to include Derek Meech here as he makes less than the league minimum, and he can play both forward and defense. I will not include Cleary or Draper because like Stuart they have NTCs. I will also not include anyone signed this offseason.

So which pair of players do you want to see moved instead of Stuart?

Filppula and Lilja (4.25)

Hudler and Lilja (4.125m)

Holmstrom and Kronwall ($5.25m)

Maltby and Kronwall ($3.883)

Well, Kronwall is a better defenseman than Stuart so I know I would rather trade Stuart than Kronwall if I were forced to trade one.

And I would rather have Lilja to step into Stuart's role and have both Filppula and Hudler up front than lose one of them and Lilja and keep Stuart in his spot with a third D pairing of some combo of Lebda/Delmore/Meech.

and also... where do you even get these numbers? Lilja is going to be LTIR'd and when he's back, Eaves will be sent down and Meech or Lebda dealt...

Also, I'd trade Rafalski before Stuart in the wonderful world of make believe where NTC don't exist and he'd be willing to move it... he's almost a 6 mil cap hit and not getting any younger, where Stuart is still in his prime and Kronwall can easily step into that number 2 role, with Ericsson as the 4 and Stuart as the 3, or you can give him some on the job training and put Ericsson with Lidstrom and keep Kronwall and Stuart together...

I love how people think in EA sports terms of trades and not real world....

[mmamolo 287]

NTC definitely make it tough but ideally, for me, I would rather see Rafalski get moved than Stuart. Bigger Cap hit, better return and I would rather not lose any toughness on our back end. Rafalski is sick and has done very well since coming here but he is getting older, he turns the puck over and I think Kronwall will be able to make up for some of his lost offense on the PP if given a spot on the first unit. Plus, Kindl can put up offensive numbers so when he is ready to make the jump to the NHL we'd ideally get some additional offense from him.

[Leadzedder 4]

Firstly, I don't think Hudler is coming back this year. I don't think Stuart or Rafalski are going anywhere. I certainly wouldn't move Stuart, he brings somethign we would miss at his price. I'd rather have Stuart than Hudler, and I'm a Hudler fan. Actually I'm a fan of all of our players. (KHL bound or not). But if we have to / want to make cap space.... Rafalski is our guy.

I think a major point I have with this is that Ericsson is a stud. Right now he's our # 5. I'm assuming Lids reups next year. Are we really gonna let this guy go another year as #5? I think a year with Lids would be wonderful for him.

Lids Ericsson

Kronwall Stuart

would be an excellent top 4.

IF... Hudler is forced back he'll probably get shopped. But personally if it was my decision I'd call Rafalski and i'd start out by saying.... Brian, sorry bud, but we gotta talk...

The thign is with Schneider, sure he's not half the player Rafalski is but you swap the 2 and the overall quality of our top 5 really doesn't go down that much considering the cap space gained and the possibilities that opens up.

So again, my point is that Ericsson isn't a #5, this year or next.

[Leadzedder 4]

Another thign i noticed by a couple posters... if Hudler ends up back, we have 14 forwards. Some have mentioned Eaves goes down. Umm, nope. Eaves doesn't last more than a minute on waivers. Helm is exempt. It would suck for him but he'd start the year in GR and be the first call up. He'd still get in half the games with injuries and such. I just don't see them throwing away Eaves at league minimum.

And just to add to my last post... the 5 and 6 spots for next year would be Kindl and someone. I'd like to say Lilja but who knows what will happen there. Not looking good.

For reference, the players that need to stay up on the roster next year or be exposed to waivers are Helm, Abdelkader, Ritola, Ryno, Kindl and Kolosov. So you can pen in Helm, Abdelkader and Kindl on the roster next year. Helm and ABdelkader need new contracts and Kindl has his amount. (.88 for 3 years (sweet signing))

Edited August 28, 2009 by Leadzedder

[eva unit zero 271]

and also... where do you even get these numbers? Lilja is going to be LTIR'd and when he's back, Eaves will be sent down and Meech or Lebda dealt...

Also, I'd trade Rafalski before Stuart in the wonderful world of make believe where NTC don't exist and he'd be willing to move it... he's almost a 6 mil cap hit and not getting any younger, where Stuart is still in his prime and Kronwall can easily step into that number 2 role, with Ericsson as the 4 and Stuart as the 3, or you can give him some on the job training and put Ericsson with Lidstrom and keep Kronwall and Stuart together...

I love how people think in EA sports terms of trades and not real world....

One, I haven't played an EA sports game in over five years. Two, the Wings, with Hudler, Lilja, Bertuzzi, Williams, Eaves, Helm, Leino, etc. included are $3.845m over the cap and have 24 players on the roster. If you take away just Hudler, bringing it to 13 forwards, the Wings are still $970k over the cap with 13/8/2. If Lilja spends half the season (41 games) on LTIR and Lebda is traded when he gets back, before the Wings play game 42, then the Wings will see a total of $950kcut from that number. So Lilja would have to miss more than half the season for moving just Hudler to work. If you were GM, would you rely on a player being injured and not being able to come back; or furthermore hold him out in favor of far worse players; just to trade Hudler instead of someone else?

I sure as hell wouldn't.

I would trade Stuart because he is the most expendable player who definitely and without a doubt clears the cap overage we are currently facing. If Lilja goes IR, he might be back after the minimum 10 games. That's only $152,439 in cap relief, which brings the overage down to $3.693m. Stuart, Franzen, Rafalski, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom are the guys who make more than that. So, trade who? Even if Eaves or Helm goes to Grand Rapids to make it 13 forwards, it's still $3.1-$3.2m and you've added no new names to the list. Who would you trade? I pick Stuart, bring up Delmore until Lilja is off LTIR, and I'm done.

[stevkrause 1,247]

One, I haven't played an EA sports game in over five years. Two, the Wings, with Hudler, Lilja, Bertuzzi, Williams, Eaves, Helm, Leino, etc. included are $3.845m over the cap and have 24 players on the roster. If you take away just Hudler, bringing it to 13 forwards, the Wings are still $970k over the cap with 13/8/2. If Lilja spends half the season (41 games) on LTIR and Lebda is traded when he gets back, before the Wings play game 42, then the Wings will see a total of $950kcut from that number. So Lilja would have to miss more than half the season for moving just Hudler to work. If you were GM, would you rely on a player being injured and not being able to come back; or furthermore hold him out in favor of far worse players; just to trade Hudler instead of someone else?

I sure as hell wouldn't.

I would trade Stuart because he is the most expendable player who definitely and without a doubt clears the cap overage we are currently facing. If Lilja goes IR, he might be back after the minimum 10 games. That's only $152,439 in cap relief, which brings the overage down to $3.693m. Stuart, Franzen, Rafalski, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom are the guys who make more than that. So, trade who? Even if Eaves or Helm goes to Grand Rapids to make it 13 forwards, it's still $3.1-$3.2m and you've added no new names to the list. Who would you trade? I pick Stuart, bring up Delmore until Lilja is off LTIR, and I'm done.

you're just flat wrong - even if Lilja NEVER sees one minute of LTIR, dealing Ledba and sending Eaves or Helm down does the job and clears us - use Meech as the swing man... you only need 21 for an NHL roster:

FORWARDS

Pavel Datsyuk — $6,700,000

Henrik Zetterberg — $6,083,333

Johan Franzen — $3,954,545

Valtteri Filppula — $3,000,000

Daniel Cleary — $2,800,000

Tomas Holmstrom — $2,250,000

Kris Draper — $1,583,333

Jason Williams — $1,500,000

Todd Bertuzzi — $1,500,000

Kirk Maltby — $883,333

Ville Leino — $800,000

Darren Helm — $599,444

DEFENSEMEN

Nicklas Lidstrom — $7,450,000

Brian Rafalski — $6,000,000

Brad Stuart — $3,750,000

Niklas Kronwall — $3,000,000

Andreas Lilja — $1,250,000

Jonathan Ericsson — $900,000

Derek Meech — $483,333

GOALTENDERS

Chris Osgood — $1,416,666

Jimmy Howard — $716,666

ROSTER SIZE 21

SALARY CAP $56,800,000

PAYROLL $56,620,653

BONUSES $0

CAP SPACE $179,347

Edited August 28, 2009 by stevkrause

[toby91_ca 620]

you're just flat wrong - even if Lilja NEVER sees one minute of LTIR, dealing Ledba and sending Eaves or Helm down does the job and clears us - use Meech as the swing man... you only need 21 for an NHL roster:

FORWARDS

Pavel Datsyuk — $6,700,000

Henrik Zetterberg — $6,083,333

Johan Franzen — $3,954,545

Valtteri Filppula — $3,000,000

Daniel Cleary — $2,800,000

Tomas Holmstrom — $2,250,000

Kris Draper — $1,583,333

Jason Williams — $1,500,000

Todd Bertuzzi — $1,500,000

Kirk Maltby — $883,333

Ville Leino — $800,000

Darren Helm — $599,444

DEFENSEMEN

Nicklas Lidstrom — $7,450,000

Brian Rafalski — $6,000,000

Brad Stuart — $3,750,000

Niklas Kronwall — $3,000,000

Andreas Lilja — $1,250,000

Jonathan Ericsson — $900,000

Derek Meech — $483,333

GOALTENDERS

Chris Osgood — $1,416,666

Jimmy Howard — $716,666

ROSTER SIZE 21

SALARY CAP $56,800,000

PAYROLL $56,620,653

BONUSES $0

CAP SPACE $179,347

Help me understand what you are going to do when someone gets injured? Play short? You won't have enough cap space to call anyone up to fill in.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Help me understand what you are going to do when someone gets injured? Play short? You won't have enough cap space to call anyone up to fill in.

we did it all year last year - play Meech for the injured player - if 2 guys go down, someone gets IR'd for at least 10 days and someone is called up from GR to fill... simple as that...

[chrisdetroit 189]

Personalyl I still like Hudler and would want him back, just not this year. I definitely do not want Stuart traded (NTC or not) and I cant see who else they could move. I think if Hudler tries to come back to the Wings now the NHL will step in. Discussions will have to be held because the WIngs were put in a position where they waited as long as they could to fill his spot, signed new ppl, and now may be forced to move other players to fit Hudler back in. Obviously the NHL believes Hudler is still obligated to his NHL franchise but I dont think they'd want to set a precedent with a poor handling of this situation. If the NHL doesn't come to the aid of the Wings, in this particular situation, I think you'll see GMs and Owners upset with how it's handled. The Wings were handcuffed by the Hudler situation and if the NHL is the only entity against Hudler going to the KHL this year (the Wings are not) then if they are they driving force in having Hudler back on the Wings they should aid in figuring out a fair resolution to the Wings roster situation.

Sorry but the precedant was already set when the League scheduled back to back games in the fianls for the first time in 50 years. This was CLEARLY a disadvantage to the Wings yet it was allowed to happen.

You can't count on fairness from the league. This is the same league that is fighting tooth and nail to keep a team in the desert that has lost money every year of it's exisistence.

No, don't count on those idiots for help...

Edited August 28, 2009 by chrisdetroit

[Leadzedder 4]

Another thought.... Stuart and his NTC.... I believe his ntc is up at years end so we do have some leverage there.

"Hey Stuart... give me a list of teams you'd like to be traded to this year or we're sending your ass to Edmonton next year. See how the Mrs likes that."

Just saying.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Another thought.... Stuart and his NTC.... I believe his ntc is up at years end so we do have some leverage there.

"Hey Stuart... give me a list of teams you'd like to be traded to this year or we're sending your ass to Edmonton next year. See how the Mrs likes that."

Just saying.

yea, because we're a Mickey Mouse organization like that and that would EVER happen here........

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Another thought.... Stuart and his NTC.... I believe his ntc is up at years end so we do have some leverage there.

"Hey Stuart... give me a list of teams you'd like to be traded to this year or we're sending your ass to Edmonton next year. See how the Mrs likes that."

Just saying.

^ Something the Red Wings organization would never do.

[Leadzedder 4]

I should have worded that better as to not upset anyone lol but you get the point... If we had to trade him, Stuart is in a better position now than at years end. Better?

,

Anyway, my master plan is toast, Schneider is off the market.

[mmamolo 287]

Sorry but the precedant was already set when the League scheduled back to back games in the fianls for the first time in 50 years. This was CLEARLY a disadvantage to the Wings yet it was allowed to happen.

You can't count on fairness from the league. This is the same league that is fighting tooth and nail to keep a team in the desert that has lost money every year of it's exisistence.

No, don't count on those idiots for help...

There's a difference. Personally I felt that the NHL wanted it's poster child to win a Stanley Cup and did it's share to help him do it. Some may not agree with that but I felt the same thing the year ebfore despite the Wings winning. I don't think the NHL will want to help because it's the Wings but they have a vested interest in what happens with Hudler. The NHL wants to protect its assets and commodities in spite of him playing for Detroit. If the NHL doesn't try and fix this situation what happens when another Alex Ovechkin comes along and dominates the league only to leave as an RFA for the KHL?