henrik40 76 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) I don't know if anyone has suggested this and I didn't feel like reading through everything but I would assume Franzen goes on LTIR so he doesn't count against the cap. I say we lure Sundin out of retirement and sign him for like 1.5-2 mil. Get 'er done, Kenny! edit: also, can someone explain to me how LTIR works with respect to the cap? How much, if any, of Franzen's salary will come off our cap number this season? Edited October 10, 2009 by henrik40 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) If they're not getting goal scoring and are slipping in the standings they'll make a big move. Having $5.5 million on the books at the deadline is pointless if you can't get into the playoffs. Move Kronwall + + + + + as many picks as needed for Kovalchuk now. Makes our PP better instantly and gives Datsyuk a guy to play with. Yeah bro, great idea. Let's move Lidstrom's replacement and totally eviscerate what defense we'll have when he hangs 'em up. Holland and the Wings org will do what's best in the long run; they're not as stupid as you are, as they realize that longevity is what matters in professional sports. BTW, we'll still make the playoffs this year. No need to panic. I don't know if anyone has suggested this and I didn't feel like reading through everything but I would assume Franzen goes on LTIR so he doesn't count against the cap. I say we lure Sundin out of retirement and sign him for like 1.5-2 mil. Get 'er done, Kenny! We don't have the cap room; Franzen coming off the LTIR would put his salary back into our cap room (which would be negligible), putting us over and thus having us forfeit every game until we're back under. Basically we'd be asking for Sundin to come in for 4 months and then peace the hell out when Franzen is healthy. Edited October 10, 2009 by Theophany Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 We would have to sell our teams future to get Kovalchuk at the deadline, literally at least 2-3 first rounders, a top prospect(Ericsson/Kindl/Tatar/Abby), and a good player (Kronwall/Franzen/Flip). Kovalchuck is a top 5 player, as much as I'd like him on our team I would not want to trade for him. Not to mention we need better middle-salary players then anything else. Heatley trade #1: Hossa, Greg Devries Thornton: Sturm, Primeau, Stuart Hossa: A first 20th overall/ Esposito, Colby Armstrong, Christenssen and a first. Don't forget, the Thrash also got Dupuis. Heatley trade #2: Cheechoo, Michalek and a 2nd. People are severely overrating the packages teams would present for Kovalchuk. If he were worth three firsts, a top prospect and a roster player teams would have poached him via offer sheet years ago. Kronwall/Flip and a prospect plus a two first rounders. For Kovalchuk's rights? Sounds fine by me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropkickshanahans 463 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 We have Maltby, Holmstrom, Howard, Bertuzzi and Williams coming off the books next season. There is also the possibility of Lidstrom retiring. All it would take is moving only the salary of Kronwall in a trade for Kovalchuk and Franzen being on LTIR for the majority if not all of the season. If Atlanta trades Kovalchuk and its not a sign in trade than they're not going to get some blockbuster package that everyone acts like they would. If they're trading Kovalchuk to a team with the understanding he signs a long term extension, then yes of course they'll get a decent package. There are very few contending teams going into next season with as much cap space as Detroit. We're not going to do it. We're a team built on depth and we're not going to throw that away for one player. This isn't 2002 anymore, we have to be smart with our future and resign/replace those depth players as well as keep a strong core D intact. Plus I would be sad to see Kronwall leave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Yeah bro, great idea. Let's move Lidstrom's replacement and totally eviscerate what defense we'll have when he hangs 'em up. Holland and the Wings org will do what's best in the long run; they're not as stupid as you are, as they realize that longevity is what matters in professional sports. BTW, we'll still make the playoffs this year. No need to panic. We don't have the cap room; Franzen coming off the LTIR would put his salary back into our cap room (which would be negligible), putting us over and thus having us forfeit every game until we're back under. Basically we'd be asking for Sundin to come in for 4 months and then peace the hell out when Franzen is healthy. Lidstrom's replacement is Brian Rafalski. And thus just in, Ilya Kovalchuk isn't even 30 yet. How is trading a #3 defenseman who has never lived up to his potential and forced Holland to sign Rafalski, for Kovalchuk a problem? And apparently not many people actually understand LTIR. Every day that Franzen is out, that salary can be used for another player. Morrow was out six months, Markov is going to be out till the playoffs and Kopecky and Kronwall both sat an entire year almost. But miraculously, Franzen is going to heal up in three months. If Holland can swing a deal for Kovalchuk and the cost is making Franzen sit out an extra month and only skate in practice hes going to do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropkickshanahans 463 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Kronwall/Flip and a prospect plus a two first rounders. For Kovalchuk's rights? Sounds fine by me. OK now that is just completely ridiculous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 We're not going to do it. We're a team built on depth and we're not going to throw that away for one player. This isn't 2002 anymore, we have to be smart with our future and resign/replace those depth players as well as keep a strong core D intact. Plus I would be sad to see Kronwall leave How does moving our fourth best defenseman, who is already being outplayed by Big E, a shot to our defense? Kovalchuk plays the point on the PP, better than any defenseman, hes right handed too. I referenced the "Big trades" of the last decade and none of them were even close to what you guys are suggesting it would take to get Kovalchuk. A guy who has made it clear that if hes not happy, he wants out. This isn't Crosby or Ovechkin.. Kovalchuk doesn't draw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 OK now that is just completely ridiculous. #3 center or #4 defenseman, plus a prospect, plus three picks for Kovalchuk locked up. Yes, crazy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Lidstrom's replacement is Brian Rafalski. And thus just in, Ilya Kovalchuk isn't even 30 yet. How is trading a #3 defenseman who has never lived up to his potential and forced Holland to sign Rafalski, for Kovalchuk a problem? And apparently not many people actually understand LTIR. Every day that Franzen is out, that salary can be used for another player. Morrow was out six months, Markov is going to be out till the playoffs and Kopecky and Kronwall both sat an entire year almost. But miraculously, Franzen is going to heal up in three months. If Holland can swing a deal for Kovalchuk and the cost is making Franzen sit out an extra month and only skate in practice hes going to do it. Uh, Rafalski is 36. He's not gonna be around too much longer, either. 4 years, maybe 5. He's also not nearly as defensively responsible Lidstrom; that you think he is...wow. I hate to break it to you, but Rafalski isn't treated as Lids' replacement in the Wings org. If he was, he would be out on 5v3s, not Stuart and Kronwall. He would also be on a PK line, not Lids/E and Stuart/Kronwall. Kronwall is one of the most important defensemen in the Wings org right now, because newsflash, Lids is hanging them up in the next few years. This is shown quite easily by the amount of ice time he gets, especially being one of the 3 players in on a two-men-down PK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Not to be a pessimist (I have faith the team and management will make this work) but Franzen was more than just simple goals that could be made up by someone like Leino. He wasn't Hossa. Franzen scored timely, game winning, clutch goals. He drove to the net. He is the type of player we don't have a lot of. He will be sorely missed and the team's style of play will have to adjust. And all you people thinking Holland will go out and sign someone: It will only work (theoretically) if he can unload someone like Lebda. We don't need another 4th liner, we need a bona fide 2nd liner, unless someone like Leino steps it up. But we can't acquire someone unless we clear roster space. Franzen will be coming back eventually, maybe even this year. Unless we rest him for the entire season, only to come back for the playoffs (if he can), I don't think the cap applies in that situation, does it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Uh, Rafalski is 36. He's not gonna be around too much longer, either. 4 years, maybe 5. He's also not nearly as defensively responsible Lidstrom; that you think he is...wow. I hate to break it to you, but Rafalski isn't treated as Lids' replacement in the Wings org. If he was, he would be out on 5v3s, not Stuart and Kronwall. He would also be on a PK line, not Lids/E and Stuart/Kronwall. Kronwall is one of the most important defensemen in the Wings org right now, because newsflash, Lids is hanging them up in the next few years. This is shown quite easily by the amount of ice time he gets, especially being one of the 3 players in on a two-men-down PK. Kronwall was looked upon as "a" replacement before it was realized that he will never be a #1 in this league. And really, its pointless to argue the defensive abilities of our two worst defensive players (Rafalski and Kronwall). If Detroit was as confident in Little Nick as yourself, Rafalski wouldn't have been needed. 3-4 years of Rafalski is more than enough time for Kindl, Smith, Kolosov and others to move up the depth charts and by that time Ericsson will be better than Kronwall has ever shown. Kronwall isn't that guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropkickshanahans 463 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 How does moving our fourth best defenseman, who is already being outplayed by Big E, a shot to our defense? Kronwall's not our 4th best, he's our second best, and no he is not being outplayed by Ericsson. Don't confuse depth placement with with how good or bad a player is. Kovalchuk plays the point on the PP, better than any defenseman, hes right handed too. cool I referenced the "Big trades" of the last decade and none of them were even close to what you guys are suggesting it would take to get Kovalchuk. A guy who has made it clear that if hes not happy, he wants out. This isn't Crosby or Ovechkin.. Kovalchuk doesn't draw. You say that and then throw out giving up Lidstrom's replacement, our #3 two-way forward who helps solidify our defensive middle depth, and 2 first round picks, which God knows we're geniuses at drafting and farming. I like our teams future better without giving that up for Kovalchuk. Unless you want us to not have the best chance to go deep in the playoffs with lack of depth, your proposal is ridiculous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Kronwall is 29 years old... he isn't replacing anyone. And no, the trade proposed was either Flip OR Kronwall, a prospect and two first rounders. How dare we give up that amazing depth of one roster player and three players not even in Detroit for the best goal scorer in the league that has shown on various occassions a natural chemistry with our #1 center. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropkickshanahans 463 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 And even if you think Ericsson will be the next Lidstrom, then cool, we'll have much needed defensive depth keeping all of our D-men here. And I wouldn't bank the future on the thought of our prospects blossoming. They have to prove it to make it here before we go out and solidify them on our lines. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Kronwall is 29 years old... he isn't replacing anyone. And no, the trade proposed was either Flip OR Kronwall, a prospect and two first rounders. How dare we give up that amazing depth of one roster player and three players not even in Detroit for the best goal scorer in the league that has shown on various occassions a natural chemistry with our #1 center. Best goal scorer in the league is Ovechkin, bro. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 And even if you think Ericsson will be the next Lidstrom, then cool, we'll have much needed defensive depth keeping all of our D-men here. And I wouldn't bank the future on the thought of our prospects blossoming. They have to prove it to make it here before we go out and solidify them on our lines. We've seen our defensive depth at work and it resulted in losing Quincey for nothing. For the next three seasons we'll have: Rafalski Ericsson Stuart Lilja And we have these prospects waiting for a shot: Kindl Smith Kolosov Almqvist(Who is looking like a steal of Ericsson proportions) Fournier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Best goal scorer in the league is Ovechkin, bro. Yes and Nick Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the league.. Compare Ovechkin's supporting cast with Kovalchuk's supporting cast(last season). Kovalchuk can score 55 with third liners. On the ther hand Ovechkin scores 60 with one of the best playmakers in the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Yes and Nick Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the league.. Compare Ovechkin's supporting cast with Kovalchuk's supporting cast(last season). Kovalchuk can score 55 with third liners. On the ther hand Ovechkin scores 60 with one of the best playmakers in the game. Guess we'll never know for sure if you're right, because he's stuck in Atlanta, so he's not likely to see much talent. Until then, you're wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropkickshanahans 463 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 We've seen our defensive depth at work and it resulted in losing Quincey for nothing. For the next three seasons we'll have: Rafalski Ericsson Stuart Lilja And we have these prospects waiting for a shot: Kindl Smith Kolosov Almqvist(Who is looking like a steal of Ericsson proportions) Fournier Too bad they're far from ready. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Guess we'll never know for sure if you're right, because he's stuck in Atlanta, so he's not likely to see much talent. Until then, you're wrong. Don't ever use "We'll" like "We're" on the same playing field. Take a break from watching on Wings broadcasts and take a look at other teams around the NHL. Kovalchuk scores 50+ playing on the worst team in the conference, while Ovechkin scores 60 playing on the best. Its not really a debate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Don't ever use "We'll" like "We're" on the same playing field. Take a break from watching on Wings broadcasts and take a look at other teams around the NHL. Kovalchuk scores 50+ playing on the worst team in the conference, while Ovechkin scores 60 playing on the best. Its not really a debate. I watch every game I can; I have Center Ice. I don't agree with you and the evidence isn't there to back up your claims. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 Too bad they're far from ready. Kindl and Kolosov or at the very worst Meech isn't ready to play bottom pairing minutes? Kovalchuk-Datsyuk-Leino Cleary-Zetterberg-Franzen X-Filppula-Abdelkader X-Draper-Helm Ericsson-Rafalski Stuart-Lilja/Kolosov Kindl-Meech Osgood Better backup Oh lords how ever will we compete? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Radic 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 I watch every game I can; I have Center Ice. I don't agree with you and the evidence isn't there to back up your claims. A simple comparison of Atlanta's top six vs Washington's top six is all that is necessary. Of course those facts are completely ignored since you feel the need to troll your boat for the sake of disagreeing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropkickshanahans 463 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) Kindl and Kolosov or at the very worst Meech isn't ready to play bottom pairing minutes? Kovalchuk-Datsyuk-Leino Cleary-Zetterberg-Franzen X-Filppula-Abdelkader X-Draper-Helm Ericsson-Rafalski Stuart-Lilja/Kolosov Kindl-Meech Osgood Better backup Oh lords how ever will we compete? It's called THE CAP. You're whole argument is based on assumption that it will all work out under the cap, according to your line depth. You don't even know who the hell will be playing LW on 3 and 4, so I'm assuming we sign scrubs for cheap. Under Osgood you have "better backup." On defense we have a player who we don't even know will return due to concussion, so we have 3 rookies playing with 1 very raw rookie on the second pairing. That means after Rafalski leaves we'll have to call another one up. You have another rookie on the top line assuming he's capable. We gotta see a full season from him first. And what if Kovalchuk gets hurt? Where's the depth to pick it up like we have now? Edited October 10, 2009 by dropkickshanahans Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropkickshanahans 463 Report post Posted October 10, 2009 I mean I don't mean to come off harsh but you're basically banking our future with 4 rookies on defense and 3 rookies on offense and you don't even have names to fill out the rest of that roster...all to get Kovalchuk on this team. Doesn't really sit too well with me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
