Injuries do not add cap space

[Doggy 130]

I keep seeing people make posts where they imply that moving a player on LTIR somehow gives a team cap space. This is not the case. It was spoken about in another thread but I thought making a thread solely about this might get more views an maybe clear up this misunderstanding. It's an easy mistake to make.

For those thinking that Lilja, Franzen and Filppula's long-term injuries will help our cap situation -- it won't.

It's clearly stated in the CBA that a player on long-term injured reserve still counts against a team's cap hit.

All Player Salary and Bonuses paid to Players on an NHL Active Roster, Injured Reserve or Non Roster that are Unfit to Play – being either injured or suffering from an illness – shall be counted against a Club's Upper Limit, Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, as well as against the Players' Share.

It appears that the misconception is derived from a certain rule that allows a team the ability to go over the cap a certain amount. Specifically, the player/s required to replace the injured player may allow a team over the cap limit if the replacement salary pushed them over however, the replacement salary/ies cannot equal more than that of the player on LTIR and the team must come back into compliance as soon as the injured player is activated.

Eg. We can call up or trade for $3m worth of players to replace Flip, but we cannot necessarily go over the cap limit by $3m. If Detroit was $3.5m under the cap ceiling, they wouldn't be allowed to go over at all because Flip's salary is worth only $3m. Cap relief is only granted if replacing a players salary pushes a team over the cap ceiling.

Trading for a player to replace Flip or Franzen would not be fruitful because they will return this season, thus Ken Holland would see severe problems complying to the cap when they're healthy. So really, calling players up from GR is the only sensible course of action in the current cap state.

With regards to Lilja, chances are he will not return this season. If that is the case, a trade can be made to replace his $1.25m salary. However, as it stands (the pro-rated picture changes every day) with our current space of almost $3m, it's most likely that we would not be granted cap relief for Andreas Lilja's replacement as it wouldn't push us over the cap ceiling.

The way around this, is for Kenny to make multiple trades, preferrably close to the deadline. One (or more) that pushes us to the limit, followed by one where he requires the NHL's permission to exceed the limit due to Lilja's LTIR status. This of course, is only if Lilja cannot return.

So, in a nutshell -- these injuries are really not much help to our cap situation.

For more info NHLSCAP.com is an excellent source and articulates this much better than I. I hope it makes sense and I didn't come across and pompous or nothing.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Doggy

[egroen 384]

If Franzen and Lilja look to be out all season, it would allow for a pretty nice trade deadline acquisition -- but at this point all they can really do is bring up Griffins.

[StormJH1 231]

I wondered about this, thanks for the explaination. The only reason I thought that it might is that the cap is kinda added up over the course of the year, and I thought that the salaries might not count for the times when the players were IR'ed, but that appears not to be the case.

It's just tough for me to believe that we lost as much talent as we did, signed nobody over $3 million, didn't make any significant offseason re-signings (well, we did sign Z and Franzen last year), and yet still have this much cap trouble. How the hell could they possibly have kept Hossa? This team would be far more terrible had we done so, particularly while he's out with the injury.

[Doggy 130]

If Franzen and Lilja look to be out all season, it would allow for a pretty nice trade deadline acquisition -- but at this point all they can really do is bring up Griffins.

Exactly. But Franzen will be back right? RIGHT?? I always thought he would.

[seeinred 1,488]

Nice explanation, Doggy. I'd have to say this is the most often misunderstood provision of the new CBA.

I just want to see a team put like their 2 or 3 top paid guys on LTIR the day of the trade deadline, trade for some big name guys, and keep your original players out until the playoffs. That could be fun.

[Doggy 130]

I wondered about this, thanks for the explaination. The only reason I thought that it might is that the cap is kinda added up over the course of the year, and I thought that the salaries might not count for the times when the players were IR'ed, but that appears not to be the case.

It's just tough for me to believe that we lost as much talent as we did, signed nobody over $3 million, didn't make any significant offseason re-signings (well, we did sign Z and Franzen last year), and yet still have this much cap trouble. How the hell could they possibly have kept Hossa? This team would be far more terrible had we done so, particularly while he's out with the injury.

We were never going to re-sign Hossa. It was never really a possibility. But honestly, this team can get a very good rental or two at the trade deadline, once we've accrued a nice cap space buffer. Our cap situation is actually pretty good.

We could most likely add $4-5m worth of salaries at the deadline. When was the last time we could say that? However, with the cap probably going down next season, they would have to be just that -- rentals.

SR, now THAT would be an interesting move. Lol. A sirdrake-worthy idea, really.

[egroen 384]

Exactly. But Franzen will be back right? RIGHT?? I always thought he would.

ACL injuries take forever to come back from -- Fischer was awful for 1 1/2 years; Hatcher came back after 80 games and sucked in the playoffs -- I would not be against unofficially locking Franzen out this year, and let him play a conditioning stint in the AHL, hopefully to get him ready fr the playoffs. I'd rather have him stinking up the AHL than the NHL. If he was kept off all year, it allows for a serious signing at the trade deadline - not Kovalchuk, but still quite a bit of flexibility.

[stevkrause 1,247]

You are only partially correct - you can add cap space, just as long as you are complaint when a player returns

[Doggy 130]

You are only partially correct - you can add cap space, just as long as you are complaint when a player returns

No, that's exactly what I said. I'm 100% correct.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Doggy

[Guest micah]

Thanks for posting this, Doggy.

[stevkrause 1,247]

No, that's exactly what I said. I'm 100% correct.

or you're exactly correct and I didn't read well enough, haha

sorry, my fault for only skimming your post. well put.

[skyphoenix 153]

Call up Nylander! Just kidding.

[Jedi 1,865]

ACL injuries take forever to come back from -- Fischer was awful for 1 1/2 years; Hatcher came back after 80 games and sucked in the playoffs -- I would not be against unofficially locking Franzen out this year, and let him play a conditioning stint in the AHL, hopefully to get him ready fr the playoffs. I'd rather have him stinking up the AHL than the NHL. If he was kept off all year, it allows for a serious signing at the trade deadline - not Kovalchuk, but still quite a bit of flexibility.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you (and please correct me if I am), I don't think what you're proposing is possible. Conditioning stints can only last two weeks, and I believe that a player can only be sent down like that once per year. With the 3 to 4 month timeframe that most players come back from ACL injuries, that'd put Franzen back in the lineup around mid to late February, call it early March just to be cautious. That still leaves until April 11th until the end of the season, so even with a conditioning stint, you'd be looking at keeping him benched for two to three weeks?

I imagine that if Franzen's in playing shape, then he'll be in the lineup. No way are Kenny and Babs going to let a player with a cap hit of just under 4 million sit in the pressbox until the playoffs. Even if he's not back 100%, getting back in the game will do him more good than being mothballed for 2 weeks to a month.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you (and please correct me if I am), I don't think what you're proposing is possible. Conditioning stints can only last two weeks, and I believe that a player can only be sent down like that once per year. With the 3 to 4 month timeframe that most players come back from ACL injuries, that'd put Franzen back in the lineup around mid to late February, call it early March just to be cautious. That still leaves until April 11th until the end of the season, so even with a conditioning stint, you'd be looking at keeping him benched for two to three weeks?

I imagine that if Franzen's in playing shape, then he'll be in the lineup. No way are Kenny and Babs going to let a player with a cap hit of just under 4 million sit in the pressbox until the playoffs. Even if he's not back 100%, getting back in the game will do him more good than being mothballed for 2 weeks to a month.

4 months is a joke - an ACL is at least 6 months realistically...

[Doggy 130]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you (and please correct me if I am), I don't think what you're proposing is possible. Conditioning stints can only last two weeks, and I believe that a player can only be sent down like that once per year. With the 3 to 4 month timeframe that most players come back from ACL injuries, that'd put Franzen back in the lineup around mid to late February, call it early March just to be cautious. That still leaves until April 11th until the end of the season, so even with a conditioning stint, you'd be looking at keeping him benched for two to three weeks?

I imagine that if Franzen's in playing shape, then he'll be in the lineup. No way are Kenny and Babs going to let a player with a cap hit of just under 4 million sit in the pressbox until the playoffs. Even if he's not back 100%, getting back in the game will do him more good than being mothballed for 2 weeks to a month.

Further to that, players on conditioning assignments still count against the cap. To get Franzen off the books, he must be waived. Bad idea.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Further to that, players on conditioning assignments still count against the cap. To get Franzen off the books, he must be waived. Bad idea.

or LTIR'd for the entire year ie. unavailable for playoffs - also a bad idea...

[Jedi 1,865]

4 months is a joke - an ACL is at least 6 months realistically...

Well, I'm just basing that off what I've seen previous players recover from this kind of injury. Not that he was ever 100% again after it, but Hatcher came back in early March after an ACL tear in the third game of the year. Though to be fair he was pretty much a pylon from there on out. Take it for what it's worth, I suppose.

or LTIR'd for the entire year ie. unavailable for playoffs - also a bad idea...

Which is exactly why we'd better hope that it's closer to 4 months than 6 months...

[Doggy 130]

or LTIR'd for the entire year ie. unavailable for playoffs - also a bad idea...

Still on the books. That was the point of this thread.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Thanks for the clear up Doggy. For some reason i always though if a player had a 4 mil cap hit and that player was on LTIR for half a season, his cap hit would only be 2 mil.

[egroen 384]

or LTIR'd for the entire year ie. unavailable for playoffs - also a bad idea...

This is an area I am fuzzy on -- I know reconditioning stints need a player's permission and are only once a year fr a maximum of two weeks -- but I'm not sure if that counts against the cap, but I'm not sure why a player out on LTIR for 'most' of the season would not be able to play in the playoffs?

I do not think Franzen will be any benefit to the Wings this regular season - maybe he can be for the playoffs.

It just would be ideal if the Wings trainers could keep him on LTIR for that cap space - which could make all the difference this year.

Ultimately, it is probably impossible if Franzen is genuinely ready to return before the end of the season - and would constitute "circumventing the cap".

[Doggy 130]

This is an area I am fuzzy on -- I know reconditioning stints need a player's permission and are only once a year fr a maximum of two weeks -- but I'm not sure if that counts against the cap, but I'm not sure why a player out on LTIR for 'most' of the season would not be able to play in the playoffs?

I do not think Franzen will be any benefit to the Wings this regular season - maybe he can be for the playoffs.

It just would be ideal if the Wings trainers could keep him on LTIR for that cap space - which could make all the difference this year.

Ultimately, it is probably impossible if Franzen is genuinely ready to return before the end of the season - and would constitute "circumventing the cap".

Condidtioning assigned players count against the cap.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Still on the books. That was the point of this thread.

not really... you'd get the cap relief in this situation.

[Buppy 1,720]

FWIW...section 50.10 D from the CBA

Bona-Fide Long-TermInjury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit.

In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and

unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes,

in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit

to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular

Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an

additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and

Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an

amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the

duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination

of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-

Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and

jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician's determination

regarding the Player's fitness to play.

(i) A Club seeking to exercise the Bona-Fide Long-Term

Injury/Illness Exception must simultaneously so notify Central

Registry and the NHLPA, in writing, before any Player replacing

an unfit-to-play Player shall be permitted to play with the Club;

(ii) The Player Salary and Bonuses of the Player that has been deemed

unfit-to-play shall continue to be counted toward the Club's

Averaged Club Salary as well as count against the Players' Share

during the League Year in which the Player is deemed unfit-toplay

(including during the period such unfit-to-play Player is on a

Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan

to another league);

(iii) The total replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for a Player or

Players that have replaced an unfit-to-play Player may not in the

aggregate exceed the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of

the unfit-to-play Player who the Club is replacing;

(iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that

replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's

Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club

Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the

Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and

Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player,

provided, however, that when the unfit-to-play Player is once again

fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide

Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another

league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its

Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior

to the Player being able to rejoin the Club. To the extent any

Player who is unfit-to-play becomes fit to play during the period of

the Roster Freeze set forth in Article 13, the provisions of this

Section 50.10(d)(iv) requiring a Club to come back into

compliance with the Payroll Range shall supersede the provisions

of Article 13 restricting transactions during the Roster Freeze;

General Illustration:

A Player with a Player Salary of $1.5 million becomes unfit to play for

more than 24 calendar days and 10 NHL Regular Season games. At

the time the Player becomes unfit to play, his Club has an Averaged

Club Salary of $39.5 million, and the Upper Limit in that League Year

is $40 million. The Club may replace the unfit-to-play Player with

another Player or Players with an aggregate Player Salary and Bonuses

of up to $1.5 million. The first $500,000 of such replacement Player

Salary and Bonuses shall count toward the Club's Averaged Club

Salary, bringing the Averaged Club Salary to the Upper Limit. The

Club may then exceed the Upper Limit by up to another $1 million as

a result of the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses. However, if

the unfit-to-play Player once again becomes fit to play, and the Club

has not otherwise created any Payroll Room during the interim period,

then the Player shall not be permitted to rejoin the Club until such time

as the Club reduces its Averaged Club Salary to below the Upper

Limit.

Confusing as all get out, especially since there's no set disignation for 'replacement' players (something else that gets people confused).

edit: Bolded a portion of the above for emphasis

Edited October 30, 2009 by Buppy

[Doggy 130]

not really... you'd get the cap relief in this situation.

No, you're not looking at this the right way. I explained this in another thread so I'll just copy/paste it:

It counts against the cap. It allows you to spend over the cap limit but it still counts against the cap. The reason it's important not to look at it the way you do, is because having his payroll on the roster doesn't allow the team to accrue the same amount of cap space for the deadline that it would if he was off it.

I might sound like I'm splitting hairs but it's really not and I hope I explained well enough the reason why.

Cap relief is not having him off the books.

[stevkrause 1,247]

No, you're not looking at this the right way. I explained this in another thread so I'll just copy/paste it:

Cap relief is not having him off the books.

fair enough - point is, we can still add a player to replace him regardless if he is "off the books"