The Wings need to get tougher, seriously

[Guest micah]

Which would have negated the man advantage Kronner was trying to exploit.

No it wouldn't have. It would have negated 2 of the 4 minutes that Laraque's high stick caused and stopped him from hurting Kronwall.

I layed out a scenerio describing what the wings could have done better to avoid an injurry (and get a power play to boot!), nobody else has come forward with anything except blaming the opponent. The opponent was in the wrong, but the wings cannot control what others do, only what they do. Babs and Holland could have prevented this, they choose not to. Perhaps they didn't think the normally gentlemanly Laraque was a threat. Personally, I wouldn't have risked it. Hopefully they won't, anymore. this team is in injurry trouble, it's time to start protecting the players we have left and protecting them to the extent possible.

[Guest micah]

Who's to say if May was even dressed that he'd even drop the gloves? would that take back Kronwall's injry? hell no ... it would likely end in May getting destroyed by Larouque latter on in the game .. No one is really going to stop a "heavyweight" from doing what he does .. May could have fought George in the frist 30 seconds and s*** would stil have unfolded the way it did ... "seriously" .. hate this topic btw

If May (or anyone with a sack) were on the ice, it's likely he would have said something to Laraque afetr Laraque's reckless high stick. May has proven in the past that he is not afraid to fight Laraque, nor will he get "destroyed" in a fight vs Laraque. Laraque was agitated and looking to send a message - when he gets that way, he usually fights the other team's toughest guy. The Wings on saturday night had nobody brave enough or tough enough to fight Laraque, so Laraque got frustrated and did something dumb that hurt our team far more than dressing an enforcer would have.

May might not have prevented the injurry to Kronwall, but he also might have. Couldn't have hurt.

[hellsson 8]

We all saw what happened in the playoffs last spring with Niedermayer and Talbot taking some physical abuse on our key players (Datsyuk especially).

Now when it gets to the point where we are getting bumped around by one of the softest teams in the NHL (the Montreal Canadiens), I say we have a major problem!

Is in bad that I'm getting a little tired of this complaint? This is just so old, every year this argument gets pulled off the shelf and dusted off to be put back on display again.

The wings are a high skill team and rely on puck position to get the job done. Since there aren't that many high skill enforcers out there to be had, it would not behoove them to just put a guy in there to knock heads together.

Do you really think that what happened to Kronwall Saturday night wouldn't have happened because Georges Laraque was afraid that he might get into a sloppy wrestling match with a guy that MIGHT land one or two good punches? It was a dirty hit to be sure but it would have happened no matter who was on the ice when Laraque got back on the ice.

[Frozen-Man 144]

'Zactly. Nobody here stated that icing a tougher team would be a magic pill, just that we think it could help. The opposition sees how metered and reasonable we are, they get nervous because they can't respond to us without eating crow, so instead of doing the grownup thing and considering our posts, they say things like "Get Kimbo Slice!" and "Oh, you think ALL the Wings injurries could be prevented with a fighter!" It should make you proud. They're complimenting you, they're acknowledging that you're right and that they have no counterpoint.

Of all the dumb things you have said, and there are mountains, your statement in bold is perhaps the pinnacle. First of lumping yourself in with guys like GMR is ridiculous, he is intelligible, rational, and reasonable. Second, your metered and reasonable argument is that is Babcock should have spent his time chasing a matchup with George Laraque rather than with Montreal's stars. Great idea. So Babs has now changed his game plan and made sure he has May out every time Laraque is out just in case. Then you assume if May had been out Laraque wouldn't have done anything to any of the Wings, or that after the first action (the highstick) May would have seen it (which he might not have), chased down Laraque and fought him so that he wouldn't intentionally take out Kronner's knee. Then you assume that after May had prevented the injury by fighting May Laraque would have been placated and would not have done anything to anyone the rest of the game. Very metered and rational.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Frozen-Man

[Guest micah]

Of all the dumb things you have said, and there are mountains, your statement in bold is perhaps the pinnacle. First of lumping yourself in with guys like GMR is ridiculous, he is intelligible, rationale, and reasonable. Second, your metered and reasonable argument is that is Babcock should have spent his time chasing a matchup with George Laraque rather than with Montreal's stars. Great idea. So Babs has now changed his game plan and made sure he has May out every time Laraque is out just in case. Then you assume if May had been out Laraque wouldn't have done anything to any of the Wings, or that after the first action (the highstick) May would have seen it (which he might not have), chased down Laraque and fought him so that he wouldn't intentionally take out Kronner's knee. Then you assume that after May had prevented the injury by fighting May Laraque would have been placated and would not have done anything to anyone the rest of the game. Very metered and rationale.

1) GMR is one of my sock accounts.

2) "Rationale" is not an adjective.

3) I never said that Babs should run around chasing matchups with Laraque "instead" of Montreal's stars. It isn't an either/or.

4) I noted that I am not 100% certain that May would have prevented anything - but that looking at Laraque's history, he seems more likely to go after willing toughguys than innocent softies. Having someone tough out there may (geddit? May?) have prevented an injury to a player who has been scoring at a pretty good clip for us.

5) I am interested in moving forward more than I am in name calling or exagerations. What can the Wings do to prevent their scoreers from being injurred by cheapshots in the future? I read this whole thread, but somehow I missed your proposal.

[redwingfan19 293]

if anyone thinks may in the lineup would have prevented kronwalls injury then they are delusional. It was a freak thing that happened in the moment it's not like it was premeditated. It be nice if we had less ******* on this team like lebda and leino among others and get more bangers and lunch pail guys. skill on the third and 4th lines is useless when your like leino and have the strength of a hamster.

[55fan 5,133]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that enforcers will magically make all cheap-shots disappear either - just that having 1 on the bench may be of some use from time to time.

Thank you.

Enforcers have their place.

Saying that an enforcer would stop everything is like saying a goalie sucks if the opponent scores an EN.

There is a big limit to what enforcers can do, but that doesn't mean that they are useless because they are not a panacea.

Taking away your kid's car keys today won't change the fact that he drove drunk last night, but it will let him know that you will not tolerate it in the future when he gets them back.

Better to let them know that this is not acceptable for the future than to say, "oh, well, nothing can change the past."

[Guest micah]

if anyone thinks may in the lineup would have prevented kronwalls injury then they are delusional. It was a freak thing that happened in the moment it's not like it was premeditated. It be nice if we had less ******* on this team like lebda and leino among others and get more bangers and lunch pail guys. skill on the third and 4th lines is useless when your like leino and have the strength of a hamster.

"It was pretty interesting," said (delusional) Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run."

[Frozen-Man 144]

1) GMR is one of my sock accounts.

2) "Rationale" is not an adjective.

3) I never said that Babs should run around chasing matchups with Laraque "instead" of Montreal's stars. It isn't an either/or.

4) I noted that I am not 100% certain that May would have prevented anything - but that looking at Laraque's history, he seems more likely to go after willing toughguys than innocent softies. Having someone tough out there may (geddit? May?) have prevented an injury to a player who has been scoring at a pretty good clip for us.

5) I am interested in moving forward more than I am in name calling or exagerations. What can the Wings do to prevent their scoreers from being injurred by cheapshots in the future? I read this whole thread, but somehow I missed your proposal.

1. GMR is intelligible - you are not.

2. That was supposed to be rational not rationale as you very well know (and thus destroy your argument in comment 5). Additionally, I do not think you want to get into calling out grammar or spelling since in just the post I am responding to you failed to note that: a) match ups is two words not one; b) tough guys is two words not one; c) "exagerations" is actually spelled exaggerations; d) "scoreers" is spelled scorers; "injurred" is spelled injured; e) cheap shots is two words not one. There are other grammatical mistakes but these basic ones that any 4th grader would know illustrate my point that when typing mistakes are made and with the rapid and constant mistakes that you make you would be well advised to not go down that path.

3. Yeah if Babcock is making sure he put May out on the ice every time Laraque is out there then it will have an impact on who he has on the ice including his stars. It is silly to suggest otherwise, any choice to have a player out on the ice every time a specific player for the other team is out on the ice will impact the entire rotation.

4. Apparently it doesn't matter, you said in another thread that Laraque

does not have a history of cheapshotting weaklings

yet he did cheap shot Kronner (I wouldn't call Kronner a weakling but again you can't help but trash the Wings) so what he would usually do doesn't matter much does it. Oh and as an aside and back to point two even if you turn cheap shot into an action it is still two words not one).

5. My proposal is that this is hockey and guys get hurt all the time on each team. It is ludicrous that while injuries are happening to all teams you argue that somehow Detroit's but not other teams are because there is no enforcer. In fact depending on the report used there are roughly 98 guys with reported injuries in the NHL or approximately 3.26 players per team. Detroit has 5 players injured and one of them was injured last year, so only 4 injured this year, hardly way above the league average. The whole league has seen a slew of injuries lately some due to dirty plays and other due to pure accident but you continue to argue if May was just in the game there would be ponies and rainbows and everything would have been wonderful. However, consider the Stars / Blue Jacket game, Boll didn't stop Neal from slamming Dorsett's head into the board did it? No, because this happens all the time to all teams throughout the league but somehow the Wings injuries are always chalked up to not being tough enough or not having an enforcer.

FYI I wish May was in the game, and I love every time he fights and wish he would have been in the game and fought that night, I'm just not delusional enough to think it would have changed what happened to Kronner.

[CMatt89 63]

Everyone knows that our toughness level is at it's season high right now, sadly. As the injuries subside, the North American players are going to be benched, sent down, and not used again. When Franzen, Fil, and Williams come back..May, Abdelkader, and Miller will be gone. Those guys skate, go into the corners( all three) , play defensive (miller), and police (may). FIlpulla Franzen and Williams do not go into the corners hard and battle for pucks. They dont stick up for our skilled players because they are skilled players. Our defense has zero toughness outside of Stuart and Kronwall, and with a vastly declining Lidstrom and Rafalski, guys like Lebda and Erricsson will not cut it.

No team can make it with only skilled players.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The same coach that the year Detroit didn't have an enforcer stated "Our powerplay is our enforcer"?

That guy? I supposed Babcock is only a genius half the time...

And Micah's assertion that May would have even bothered to fight Laraque directly after a ******* highsticking penalty is hillarious. He doesn't even play on the line that was out there.

I think there have been enough injuries on this team that have shown that enforcers don't magically provide defensive auras for their teammates.

My avatar gunfighter would totally gun yours down in a duel.

Oh and Babcock said those things in the past because Holland didn't want to sign tough guys. While he was in Anaheim, Babcock would often dress tough guys. He does believe in "team toughness", but I don't think he was against enforcers while he was preaching that whole saying.

There are plenty of tough guys who love/loved to fight. May, Rypien, McCarty, Downey...ignore Laraque. He ******* sucks in every sense of the word.

I know. To me, he's the real huggy bear, and not Brashear.

Of all the dumb things you have said, and there are mountains, your statement in bold is perhaps the pinnacle. First of lumping yourself in with guys like GMR is ridiculous, he is intelligible, rationale, and reasonable. Second, your metered and reasonable argument is that is Babcock should have spent his time chasing a matchup with George Laraque rather than with Montreal's stars. Great idea. So Babs has now changed his game plan and made sure he has May out every time Laraque is out just in case. Then you assume if May had been out Laraque wouldn't have done anything to any of the Wings, or that after the first action (the highstick) May would have seen it (which he might not have), chased down Laraque and fought him so that he wouldn't intentionally take out Kronner's knee. Then you assume that after May had prevented the injury by fighting May Laraque would have been placated and would not have done anything to anyone the rest of the game. Very metered and rationale.

GMR is a fool. At least, that's what his clients always tell him when he screws up a case.

1) GMR is one of my sock accounts.

2) "Rationale" is not an adjective.

3) I never said that Babs should run around chasing matchups with Laraque "instead" of Montreal's stars. It isn't an either/or.

4) I noted that I am not 100% certain that May would have prevented anything - but that looking at Laraque's history, he seems more likely to go after willing toughguys than innocent softies. Having someone tough out there may (geddit? May?) have prevented an injury to a player who has been scoring at a pretty good clip for us.

5) I am interested in moving forward more than I am in name calling or exagerations. What can the Wings do to prevent their scoreers from being injurred by cheapshots in the future? I read this whole thread, but somehow I missed your proposal.

You're good, micah. But you're not that good.

Edited November 23, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[StormJH1 231]

Without even reading this thread, I can tell you that there will be people saying that this is the whole reason we needed Brad May, and that we need 2 more Brad Mays on our team to get even tougher and prevent it from happening. But that's completely wrong, and what Laraque did is a perfect example of it.

You can't prevent guys from getting hurt. Period. Georges Laraque is a garbage player who has no role in this league other than to intimidate and possibly injure opposing players. If we have a goon, and Montreal and every other team has a goon, does that mean that the other team's goon is going to stop doing what he does? Of course not. The only reason Georges Laraque is in the league so that my goon can fight your goon everytime somebody hurts one of your players. It's a sideshow and a mini-game within the NHL. And it does nothing to prevent injuries. I follow the Minnesota Wild also, and I can tell you that there probably isn't a more feared goon

I'm not opposed to fighting in the NHL, but the idea that the fighting culture can "solve" the recklessness of the game, which is becoming faster and more brutal by the day, is a joke. Nobody can solve it but the league. Baseball has a "tradition" of bench clearing brawls that are an embarassment for the sport. Hockey and basketball ended that tradition by making it an automatic supsension to leave the bench. Hockey has the power, with the suspension, to remove these careless plays from the game, and they should do it, instead of worrying about Sean Avery and "sloppy seconds."

[Guest micah]

5. My proposal is that this is hockey and guys get hurt all the time on each team. It is ludicrous that while injuries are happening to all teams you argue that somehow Detroit's but not other teams are because there is no enforcer. In fact depending on the report used there are roughly 98 guys with reported injuries in the NHL or approximately 3.26 players per team. Detroit has 5 players injured and one of them was injured last year, so only 4 injured this year, hardly way above the league average. The whole league has seen a slew of injuries lately some due to dirty plays and other due to pure accident but you continue to argue if May was just in the game there would be ponies and rainbows and everything would have been wonderful. However, consider the Stars / Blue Jacket game, Boll didn't stop Neal from slamming Dorsett's head into the board did it? No, because this happens all the time to all teams throughout the league but somehow the Wings injuries are always chalked up to not being tough enough or not having an enforcer.

So you're proposal is "stay the course, change nothing, cheapshots cannot be deterred no matter what Coach Babcock says.", correct?

Please stop lying too, okay? I don't know of anyone on this board who has ever claimed that "somehow the Wings injuries are always chalked up to not being tough enough or not having an enforcer." They aren't. Nobody blames a pulled groin resulting from a player losing an edge on a lack of an enforcer and you know it. Guys like me and Babs note that others are less likely to cheapshot our Wings when May is in the lineup, that's all. You can disagree with us, but please at least be honest when you're talking about our position.

Edited November 23, 2009 by micah

[Frozen-Man 144]

So you're proposal is "stay the course, change nothing, cheapshots cannot be deterred no matter what Coach Babcock says.", correct?

Please stop lying too, okay? I don't know of anyone on this board who has ever claimed that "somehow the Wings injuries are always chalked up to not being tough enough or not having an enforcer." They aren't. Nobody blames a pulled groin resulting from a player losing an edge on a lack of an enforcer and you know it. Guys like me and Babs note that others are less likely to cheapshot our Wings when May is in the lineup, that's all. You can disagree with us, but please at least be honest when you're talking about our position.

Well Coach Babcock was the one that chose to sit May so it is stupid to use him as the source for your rationale when he chose the lineup.

Also, speaking of lying, I specifically stated in my post that you quoted "some due to dirty plays and others due to pure accident" and it is a blatant lie to act as if I said that some of Detroit's injuries were not from accidents. Again, you should be honest about your position then people wouldn't be so confused, Babs is the one that took May out of the lineup but then you say "[g]uys like me and Babs" only when it fits you. Finally, I noticed you didn't actually argue or try to refute what I said just deflected and distracted.

[Guest micah]

Well Coach Babcock was the one that chose to sit May so it is stupid to use him as the source for your rationale when he chose the lineup.

Also, speaking of lying, I specifically stated in my post that you quoted "some due to dirty plays and others due to pure accident" and it is a blatant lie to act as if I said that some of Detroit's injuries were not from accidents. Again, you should be honest about your position then people wouldn't be so confused, Babs is the one that took May out of the lineup but then you say "[g]uys like me and Babs" only when it fits you. Finally, I noticed you didn't actually argue or try to refute what I said just deflected and distracted.

Read carefully, sweety. You accused the wicked-smart pro-grit-neo-Barnes-bros of stating that "somehow the Wings injuries are always chalked up to not being tough enough or not having an enforcer." We haven't. You're lying. Stop lying.

Babs likely did cho-cho-choose to sit May. Babs, if he could play that game over, probably wouldn't have choose to sit May. He doesn't always consult me before games. sometimes, like this time, he makes a mistake. Here's hoping he learns from it and we don't see anymore blatant cheapshots causing our players to miss time.

Please answer this time, okay? Is your proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall?

If there's something specific you want me to respond to, I will. I didn't address each of your "points", as I didn't have anything to say about them. My spelling is atrocious - it has atrophied, as I very rarely write my own letters or memos these days. When I tought you that you were using "rationale" wrong, I figured you'd thank me instead of responding with "Yeah? Well you spell words wrong!"

Edited November 23, 2009 by micah

[Guest Shoreline]

Read carefully, sweety. You accused the wicked-smart pro-grit-neo-Barnes-bros of stating that "somehow the Wings injuries are always chalked up to not being tough enough or not having an enforcer." We haven't. You're lying. Stop lying.

Babs likely did cho-cho-choose to sit May. Babs, if he could play that game over, probably wouldn't have choose to sit May. He doesn't always consult me before games. sometimes, like this time, he makes a mistake. Here's hoping he learns from it and we don't see anymore blatant cheapshots causing our players to miss time.

Please answer this time, okay? Is your proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall?

Always? No. However, it's funny and highly unsurprising when there's a game involving multiple scrums or guys getting knocked around or even an injury that a topic like this comes up. It's right on par with the "ZOMG R SEASUN IS OVAR" comments after the first two games.

Your assertions fall flat on it's (and your) face with the notion of preventing anything because teams like Philly and Anaheim that carry an assload of enforcers STILL get injured, still get engaged in scums, and cheap shots still happen regardless. You have constantly, along with GMR and others, connected the Wings winning cups to merely carrying an enforcer (not so much them actually PLAYING or enforcing anything), yet, the Wings are carrying an enforcer and what happens?

If it weren't so entertaining (and makes me out to be holier-than-thou but what else can one expect given views like yours) I would suggest getting off the schtick and realizing the Wings injury problems has to do with long seasons and teams naturally going through bad spells of injuries, not enforcers, and the team losing has more to do with their terrible defense and terrible offense, not enforcers. In fact, enforcers have so little to do with it it's still amazing you give it so much credence -- but then again this is a religion for you so, back to the pew.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Shoreline

[puckbags 863]

I did not wade through the 4 pages of the same old s*** on this topic but can you imagine if we took all the threads that were made on this topic and put them into one huge thread. It may well be the biggest internet forum thread in the history of the earth. *exhausting*

[Guest micah]

Always? No.

Whew. I knew it!

Your assertions fall flat on it's (and your) face with the notion of preventing anything because teams like Philly and Anaheim that carry an assload of enforcers STILL get injured, still get engaged in scums, and cheap shots still happen regardless. You have constantly, along with GMR and others, connected the Wings winning cups to merely carrying an enforcer (not so much them actually PLAYING or enforcing anything), yet, the Wings are carrying an enforcer and what happens?

Have the Ducks or Philly lost any players this year to blatant cheap shots by tough guys? Serious question, I don't know.

I have never said that Enforcers caused the Wings to win Cups. I have shown correlation between them carrying an enforcer and post-season success. It's up to you whether you choose to dismiss such corelation as random chance or not.

If it weren't so entertaining (and makes me out to be holier-than-thou but what else can one expect given views like yours) I would suggest getting off the schtick and realizing the Wings injury problems has to do with long seasons and teams naturally going through bad spells of injuries, not enforcers, and the team losing has more to do with their terrible defense and terrible offense, not enforcers. In fact, enforcers have so little to do with it it's still amazing you give it so much credence -- but then again this is a religion for you so, back to the pew.

I think an enforcer had lots to do with the one specific injury we're talking about here.

[StormJH1 231]

Read carefully, sweety. You accused the wicked-smart pro-grit-neo-Barnes-bros of stating that "somehow the Wings injuries are always chalked up to not being tough enough or not having an enforcer." We haven't. You're lying. Stop lying.

Babs likely did cho-cho-choose to sit May. Babs, if he could play that game over, probably wouldn't have choose to sit May. He doesn't always consult me before games. sometimes, like this time, he makes a mistake. Here's hoping he learns from it and we don't see anymore blatant cheapshots causing our players to miss time.

Please answer this time, okay? Is your proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall?

If there's something specific you want me to respond to, I will. I didn't address each of your "points", as I didn't have anything to say about them. My spelling is atrocious - it has atrophied, as I very rarely write my own letters or memos these days. When I tought you that you were using "rationale" wrong, I figured you'd thank me instead of responding with "Yeah? Well you spell words wrong!"

This is exact same argument that justified the war in Iraq. No, I'm not bringing politics into this, but the logic is identical:

Something really bad happened --> Our two choices are do SOMETHING or don't do anything --> Doing something will make me feel more secure than doing nothing, so... --> Let's hire a bunch of goons! (or invade Iraq)

Your only real argument is that if we do nothing we're "guaranteed" of not doing anything to solve the problem. But if you really can't prevent someone like Georges Laraque from cheapshotting a Red Wing (and you especially can't prevent Franzen or Williams from getting hurt from plays not involving cheap shots), then the truth is that no matter what that "something" you do is, it's not going to have any effect on making your team safer.

Plus, the human body is what it is. No amount of "toughness" is going to improve the structural integrity of Kronwall's MCL. And even if somebody Laraque were afraid of retribution from another team's goon (which he's not), the instigator rule shields him from having to fight someone he doesn't want to. Just ask Cody McLeod, Jordin Tootoo, Cal Clutterbuck or any number of NHL pansies who run around playing as rough as they want because they never have to fight someone they don't want to. (And, no, the solution is not to do away with the instigator rule b/c then the whole sport would turn into a WWE match.

[titanium2 867]

Something really bad happened --> Our two choices are do SOMETHING or don't do anything --> Doing something will make me feel more secure than doing nothing, so... --> Let's hire a bunch of goons!

Our opponents are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our team and its players, and neither do we.

Plus I think the Nashville Predators are the main source of heroin in the NHL.

[Guest micah]

This is exact same argument that justified the war in Iraq. No, I'm not bringing politics into this, but the logic is identical:

Something really bad happened --> Our two choices are do SOMETHING or don't do anything --> Doing something will make me feel more secure than doing nothing, so... --> Let's hire a bunch of goons! (or invade Iraq)

Your only real argument is that if we do nothing we're "guaranteed" of not doing anything to solve the problem. But if you really can't prevent someone like Georges Laraque from cheapshotting a Red Wing (and you especially can't prevent Franzen or Williams from getting hurt from plays not involving cheap shots), then the truth is that no matter what that "something" you do is, it's not going to have any effect on making your team safer.

Plus, the human body is what it is. No amount of "toughness" is going to improve the structural integrity of Kronwall's MCL. And even if somebody Laraque were afraid of retribution from another team's goon (which he's not), the instigator rule shields him from having to fight someone he doesn't want to. Just ask Cody McLeod, Jordin Tootoo, Cal Clutterbuck or any number of NHL pansies who run around playing as rough as they want because they never have to fight someone they don't want to. (And, no, the solution is not to do away with the instigator rule b/c then the whole sport would turn into a WWE match.

The league went without the instigator rule for many decades without turning into the WWE.

I never said that there were only two choices, my idea (dress a tough guy, and hope that when the other team's toughguy whats to send a message, they meet up) or doing nothing. I asked what the Wings should do to make sure that this doesn't happen again (not just a freak injury - an injury that happened as a direct result of a cheapshot by a toughguy who is known for fighting other toughguys, not taking checapshots at non-fighters).

I am not interested in discussing the Iraq war. If you have an idea as to what the Wings could do to prevent toughguys from cheapshotting our non-fighters in the future, I'd love to hear it.

[Guest Shoreline]

Whew. I knew it!

Have the Ducks or Philly lost any players this year to blatant cheap shots by tough guys? Serious question, I don't know.

I have never said that Enforcers caused the Wings to win Cups. I have shown correlation between them carrying an enforcer and post-season success. It's up to you whether you choose to dismiss such corelation as random chance or not.

I think an enforcer had lots to do with the one specific injury we're talking about here.

I don't know if they have or not this season, I've only watched a few games involving them, and their aggressiveness caused by this enforcer mentality sure made them more like bait to receiving cheap shots then preventing it. As for this specific injury, what would May have prevented? Nothing. Does the same Lappy reference need to keep getting dragged into these topics? Downey was right there when Lids was smashed by Lappy. The only thing that followed was an entertaining fight. No prevention of Lids getting hit, no lesser injury because of Downey being there. There's no magic prevention button that gets put in there because an enforcer happens to be in the lineup, except a lesser ability to put goals into the net as most enforcers today are pretty bad at doing so. Would love one if he could score goals, but realistically, not in the Wings near future.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Shoreline

[Guest micah]

I don't know if they have or not this season, I've only watched a few games involving them, and their aggressiveness caused by this enforcer mentality sure made them more like bait to receiving cheap shots then preventing it. As for this specific injury, what would May have prevented? Nothing. Does the same Lappy reference need to keep getting dragged into these topics? Downey was right there when Lids was smashed by Lappy. The only thing that followed was an entertaining fight. No prevention of Lids getting hit, no lesser injury because of Downey being there. There's no magic prevention button that gets put in there because an enforcer happens to be in the lineup, except a lesser ability to put goals into the net as most enforcers today are pretty bad at doing so. Would love one if he could score goals, but realistically, not in the Wings near future.

Nobody ever claimed that enforcers will prevent 100% of cheapshots. That doesn't mean they can't or don't prevent some. Had May been in the game, I don't think that it's so unthinkable that Lraque would have gone after him instead of Kronner. It's not magic and it's not certain, but it's my hunch based on what I've seen of Laraque in the past.

Why would you want an enforcer who could score goals? I don't want one of my goal-scoreres making a habit of taking 5 minute penalties and busting up his hands on people's grapes. By all means, goal-scorers should be willing to fight when the game calls for it, but I want dedicated goal-scorers concentrating on scoring goals and dedicated face-breakers concentrating on breaking faces.

[Grim 5]

Kenny has no choice but to get tougher... he's got the team handcuffed with cap issues signing all these finesse players to lucrative terms. The only sad part is he can only consider castaway tough guys.

[StormJH1 231]

The league went without the instigator rule for many decades without turning into the WWE.

I never said that there were only two choices, my idea (dress a tough guy, and hope that when the other team's toughguy whats to send a message, they meet up) or doing nothing. I asked what the Wings should do to make sure that this doesn't happen again (not just a freak injury - an injury that happened as a direct result of a cheapshot by a toughguy who is known for fighting other toughguys, not taking checapshots at non-fighters).

I am not interested in discussing the Iraq war. If you have an idea as to what the Wings could do to prevent toughguys from cheapshotting our non-fighters in the future, I'd love to hear it.

And my question to you was "Do you honestly think Kronwall got injured because May wasn't in the lineup?" I'm not sure that you ever implied it would have made a difference, but if you did, I disagree.

I look at the problems with this team (even before the injuries started), and it just strikes me that you can't solve "toughness" issues with guys who are regularly going to be healthy scratches because they can't play. (Don't get me wrong, Brad May has actually surprised me with how well he has played, and that goal against Dallas should have counted and been a huge play).

But just like you can't add "team speed" by trotting out a 4th-line player who happens to be fast, you can't add team "toughness" using 4th-line hacks who are pushing it if they get 8 minutes of ice time. And you certainly can't change it mid-season acquiring out-of-work waiver wire veterans.

I'm a Red Wings fan, and to a certain extent, your team just is what it is. If my team of choice were the Ducks or Flyers, I might watch the games looking foward to seeing my guys cheapshot other players and manhandle opponents. But neither of those teams have a player that can dangle like Pavel Datsyuk, or possess the all-around game of Zetterberg. When an opposing player cheapshots and injures one of our players, why does that have to be a failure of the Wings organization? Anybody can cheapshot anyone else, just as easily as you could go grab a steak knife from the kitchen and stab someone on the street. But you don't b/c that doesn't interest you and b/c there are repricussions.

I'm mad at Laraque, I'm mad at the league for not coming down harder on this stuff, but where you and I differ is that I don't see it as a failure of my team when stuff like this happens. It happens to every team in the league, including (arguably) teams that Kronwall has played against.

Edited November 23, 2009 by StormJH1