Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted December 9, 2009 Arguments propping Brodeur up as the greatest goalie of all-time work very well for Osgood being a Top 10 goalie of all-time. Egroen, can you post up some of his not so helpful stats. Here are the the things he's accomplished that I think merit him in the discussion of best ever or top 5 without a doubt. 3 Stanley Cups 4 Vezinas 1 Calder (obviously) 7 40 win seasons (only goalie in history with that many) 1st in all time regular season wins 1st-tied all time regular season shutouts 1st all time in playoff shutouts Most minutes ever played by any player (says something about his durability) Most overtime wins 3 NHL 1st team All Star 4 NHL 2nd team All Star I believe his regular season GAA and Save% are right in line with Hasek and Roy. Might be better actually but I'm not sure of that. I think the same is true for his playoff numbers but I can't verify at this time. I give the guy his due. We can talk about defensive systems or talent surrounding a player or eras or whatever. But at the end of the day, as Mickey always says "they don't ask how, they ask how many". That said, he's pretty much 1st place in every major category. So how can he not at least merit consideration? For the record. I don't claim him to be the #1 goalie of all time. I actually don't claim any goalie to be #1. I think there's a group that all merit consideration. I include him in that select group. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T-Ruff 47 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) Egroen, can you post up some of his not so helpful stats. Here are the the things he's accomplished that I think merit him in the discussion of best ever or top 5 without a doubt. 3 Stanley Cups 4 Vezinas 1 Calder (obviously) 7 40 win seasons (only goalie in history with that many) 1st in all time regular season wins 1st-tied all time regular season shutouts 1st all time in playoff shutouts Most minutes ever played by any player (says something about his durability) Most overtime wins 3 NHL 1st team All Star 4 NHL 2nd team All Star I believe his regular season GAA and Save% are right in line with Hasek and Roy. Might be better actually but I'm not sure of that. I think the same is true for his playoff numbers but I can't verify at this time. I give the guy his due. We can talk about defensive systems or talent surrounding a player or eras or whatever. But at the end of the day, as Mickey always says "they don't ask how, they ask how many". That said, he's pretty much 1st place in every major category. So how can he not at least merit consideration? Here is a great blog that summarizes the stats and most everything you would need to consider in this debate: Clearing the Smoke: Martin Brodeur I think you indeed can use the word "clearly" in this case, that Hasek, Plante, and Roy were all better. Edited December 9, 2009 by T-Ruff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedArmy 4 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 All you can say is you can argue for Brodeur is definitely top 5 of all times especially given the talent he faced in the opposition. Furthermore you can argue Brodeur's career is not even over yet, so he can improve all of his amazing stats already further on... For those say Brodeur just made those stats cause he played long seasons and so many games, you can also argue there is a reason why he did that: that reason is consistency. Roy, Cujo, Belfour and even Hasek didn't really finish their careers in NHL on the highest notes... Let's see what Brodeur will do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 Well Sawchuk had a reported 350-400 stitches in his face throughout his pro career...He also had numerous other injuries in which he played thru...That says enough for me. I didn't say never. I said not as often. This is a true statement. How many times do we see goalies take shots off the mask or nearly off the mask nowadays? 25-30 times a season for a starter? Sawchuk played for a long time. If he were hit in the face that often, he'd have had to get stitches in seven seasons. Now, if we're talking actual number of stitches, as your post suggests, that's only maybe 25-40 hits to the face. Serious difference in high shots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beepbeep 3 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 To be fair, Sawchuk and others lacking a mask was also in an era with far fewer shots towards the upper half of the net. Just something to consider. There are a lot of factors one must consider when crossing eras. I wonder if Roy, Hasik or Marty would even play one period without a mask. I don't believe any one of the three would have anything close to the records they have if they had to use the same size pads glove and blocker as Sawchuk, even with a mask. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puckloo39 5,686 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 I wonder if Roy, Hasik or Marty would even play one period without a mask. I don't believe any one of the three would have anything close to the records they have if they had to use the same size pads glove and blocker as Sawchuk, even with a mask. who? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) Egroen, can you post up some of his not so helpful stats. Here are the the things he's accomplished that I think merit him in the discussion of best ever or top 5 without a doubt. 3 Stanley Cups 4 Vezinas 1 Calder (obviously) 7 40 win seasons (only goalie in history with that many) 1st in all time regular season wins 1st-tied all time regular season shutouts 1st all time in playoff shutouts Most minutes ever played by any player (says something about his durability) Most overtime wins 3 NHL 1st team All Star 4 NHL 2nd team All Star I believe his regular season GAA and Save% are right in line with Hasek and Roy. Might be better actually but I'm not sure of that. I think the same is true for his playoff numbers but I can't verify at this time. I give the guy his due. We can talk about defensive systems or talent surrounding a player or eras or whatever. But at the end of the day, as Mickey always says "they don't ask how, they ask how many". That said, he's pretty much 1st place in every major category. So how can he not at least merit consideration? For the record. I don't claim him to be the #1 goalie of all time. I actually don't claim any goalie to be #1. I think there's a group that all merit consideration. I include him in that select group. I think there is no question he is a Top 10 goaltender of all-time, he might get into the Top 5 (though I do not think he is there yet) but I see little shot of him getting within sniffing distance of the best ever talks. So many of the Brodeur arguments center around wins, games played, shut outs - in both the regular season and post-season. Obviously the 'team' plays a large role in these impressive accumulations, but rightfully Brodeur's constitution and even luck (finding himself on a good team, and in a good system for so many years) is a 'plus' in his column -- I just do not think it is enough to overcome the areas where he is clearly bested in. Harts, Vezinas, All-Star Team selections, SV%, Conn Smythes - he gets killed in these areas - and I think 'team' plays a lesser role, as a whole, than wins. He's never led the league in SV% (he's been 3rd twice), which I believe is the single most important stat to look at when evaluating an individual goalie's performance (no one stat is of course perfect). He has even only led the league once in GAA, despite New Jersey's defensive system. Brodeur gets huge points for a great career and consistent performance, but he lacks the peak and prime of what I consider the truly greats -- guys like Hasek, Plante, Roy, and Sawchuk. Depending on how you measure peak vs. career (I rate them pretty equally, with probably a little extra weight on prime), Brodeur is going to come up different for different people - but if he finds himself as #1 on any list, chances are you will see players like Ron Francis ahead of the likes of someone like Peter Forsberg -- which just seems 'wrong' to me. Lidstrom has even more wins (regular and post-season), games played and less games missed to injury than almost anyone -- but that is not enough to boost him into the realm of Bobby Orr. Edited December 9, 2009 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cusimano_brothers 1,655 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 Percentage of Wins as Shutouts Sawchuk : 23.04% Brodeur: 17.91%. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lidstromboli Report post Posted December 9, 2009 brodeur >>> sawchuck Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 brodeur >>> sawchuck It will be interesting to see if Brodeur's records last 30+ years like Sawchuk's have. Regarding the whole face mask thing -- it was actually a Bobby Hull slapshot to the face in 1963 that got him wearing a mask. Understandable Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lidstromboli Report post Posted December 9, 2009 ...Then again it's all a matter of opinion. not opinion, 100% fact sawchuck was a wuss Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted December 9, 2009 I think there is no question he is a Top 10 goaltender of all-time, he might get into the Top 5 (though I do not think he is there yet) but I see little shot of him getting within sniffing distance of the best ever talks. What would he have to do to then? Looking at that blog it looks to me like a single Hart trophy or a single Conn Smyth would propel him leaps and bounds in this discussion. For instance, Roy 3 con smyth but no Hart Dryden has 1 con smyth and no hart Hasek has 2 harts but no con smyth Hall has only 1 con smyth and no hart Sawchuk has 2 con smyth and no hart Plante has 1 of each A single Hart trophy would give Brodeur more than Roy, Dryden, Hall and Sawchuk combined, tie him with Plante and give him just 1 less than Hasek, who aside from Vezinas has no Con smyth. Looks to me that 1 single big award, combined with the multitude of accomplishments he already has, including 4 Vezinas (2nd only to Hasek), ought to put him into the top 3 discussion. The way that blogger wants to use his preferred stats, one would think Brodeur trails the other 6 guys by a landslide. When in fact, he does not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puckloo39 5,686 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 What would he have to do to then? Looking at that blog it looks to me like a single Hart trophy or a single Conn Smyth would propel him leaps and bounds in this discussion. For instance, Roy 3 con smyth but no Hart Dryden has 1 con smyth and no hart Hasek has 2 harts but no con smyth Hall has only 1 con smyth and no hart Sawchuk has 2 con smyth and no hart Plante has 1 of each A single Hart trophy would give Brodeur more than Roy, Dryden, Hall and Sawchuk combined, tie him with Plante and give him just 1 less than Hasek, who aside from Vezinas has no Con smyth. Looks to me that 1 single big award, combined with the multitude of accomplishments he already has, including 4 Vezinas (2nd only to Hasek), ought to put him into the top 3 discussion. The way that blogger wants to use his preferred stats, one would think Brodeur trails the other 6 guys by a landslide. When in fact, he does not. Hasek would easily have won the Conn Smythe in 1999 (probably should have, anyway), if Gary hadn't given the Cup to Dallas. And Brodeur had to wait until Hasek "retired" to win a Vezina. Ask him. He said so himself. The back to back Hart and Vezina season does it for me. Hasek >>> than Brodeur. So is Roy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) What would he have to do to then? Looking at that blog it looks to me like a single Hart trophy or a single Conn Smyth would propel him leaps and bounds in this discussion. For instance, Roy 3 con smyth but no Hart Dryden has 1 con smyth and no hart Hasek has 2 harts but no con smyth Hall has only 1 con smyth and no hart Sawchuk has 2 con smyth and no hart Plante has 1 of each A single Hart trophy would give Brodeur more than Roy, Dryden, Hall and Sawchuk combined, tie him with Plante and give him just 1 less than Hasek, who aside from Vezinas has no Con smyth. Looks to me that 1 single big award, combined with the multitude of accomplishments he already has, including 4 Vezinas (2nd only to Hasek), ought to put him into the top 3 discussion. The way that blogger wants to use his preferred stats, one would think Brodeur trails the other 6 guys by a landslide. When in fact, he does not. Harts are extremely difficult for a goalie to win, but Plante has one and Hasek has two - which is huge. I do not think it is necessarily the be-all-end-all, however. If Brodeur did win a Hart - then yes, that alone would catapult him into the Top 5, maybe even Top 3. Though I do not ignore that Brodeur has been in the Top 5 in Hart voting numerous times. But for instance, Roy has 3 Vezinas to Brodeur's 4 and neither have a Hart. Are 3 Conn Smythes (to 0) enough to overcome the difference of 1 Vezina. I think easily. Regarding the Vezinas -- remember that until the 1982 season the Vezina was the equivalent to the modern-day Jennings award, and automatically went to the goalie with the lowest GAA. Looking at First Team All-Star selections, we can see the following: Plante = 3 Sawchuk = 3 Dryden = 5 Durnan = 6 Hall = 7 Edited December 9, 2009 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 There was no Conn Smythe before 1965, but we can pretty safely assume Sawchuk would have 2 and Plante would have 1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beepbeep 3 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 who? Holy s*** I spelled a name wrong.....At least I know the difference between, there, their, and they're. Have a great day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puckloo39 5,686 Report post Posted December 9, 2009 Holy s*** I spelled a name wrong.....At least I know the difference between, there, their, and they're. Have a great day. You lose credibility points when you can't bother to spell a five-letter name correctly -- especially when it's a player you're bashing and one of the most storied goalies in the NHL. Sorry!! You have a lovely day, as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
