The Value of an Enforcer: Brad May/ The Misunderstood Point Sytem

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Too bad Lou_Siffer doesn't post here anymore.

Brad May was his favorite player ever, and he'd love all the attention May has been getting these last 2 days on LGW.

[Guest micah]

None of the injuries were due to cheap shots, head shots, punchs in scrums or being forced into fights. They've been fluke injuries, even Z got rocked by a clean check by Ohlund and the same can be said for Jackman's hit on Dano. May is detering any of the cheap s*** that was happening in past years, we just have s*** luck.

Edit: Forgot to mention, the one game where a cheap shot took out a player (Laraque on Kronwall), May wasnt dressed.

Save your breath, he's just trolling. He knows that Babs is right when he says that opponents are less likely to cheapshot our guy's when May is in the lineup. He chooses to lie by arguing against a statement that nobody has made - that May can somehow be expected to prevent all injuries, not just those cause by opponents taking liberties with our guys. Fans of the Wings know better.

FWIW, I don't care what May's +/- is. At all. I also don't care how many points he ends up with. Lots would be nice - but none would be acceptable, so long as he performs the job that he was brought in to do like he has been.

[Guest micah]

Too bad Lou_Siffer doesn't post here anymore.

Where did he go? He was a pretty bright guy.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Where did he go? He was a pretty bright guy.

Don't know.

[jollymania 162]

So why hasn't may fought Seabrook, Jackman, Brule, or Ohlund? Yet he has had several worthless bouts with barch. That being said he has been so much better than Downey the last 2 years and he is preventing at least some liberties form being taken, he is far from the MVP though, i dk what you were smokin to come up with that, maybe may's pole.

[jollymania 162]

Where did he go? He was a pretty bright guy.

Hell

[Guest E_S_A_D]

I'm going to have to respectively disagree with this one. I think +/- is one of the more important stats as it shows the drive and defensive responsibility of a player as much it does their offensive ability. Whether you're a 1st line scorer or a 4th line checker you should never want to be scored on. It's all about skating hard and playing with motivation. Let's take Leino as an example, he's leading the team at -9 and he's bitching in the paper because his confidence is down and he's not scoring goals. The least he can do is skate his ass off, be physical, and be sound defensively. Babcock would then not bench his ass and then the goals would come. However in this "new" NHL a lot of these guys only care about scoring.

Bowman came here and instituted a defensive responsibility first culture starting with Yzerman and it lead the team to much success.

This.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Not sure why elongated stats need to prove the worth of an enforcer. While I don't speak for everybody I'm pretty sure the majority understands the use of an enforcer and his role on the team without overhyping it or undervaluing it. Elongated stats don't need to verify this and don't really change anything regarding it IMO.

Brad May typically does his job on the ice, no mroe or less. Stats don't need to verify this.

Edited December 30, 2009 by SouthernWingsFan

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

So why hasn't may fought Seabrook, Jackman, Brule, or Ohlund? Yet he has had several worthless bouts with barch. That being said he has been so much better than Downey the last 2 years and he is preventing at least some liberties form being taken, he is far from the MVP though, i dk what you were smokin to come up with that, maybe may's pole.

None of those guys would ever want to fight him. They're not good enough.

He'd have to jump one of them and take the instigator penalty. Why did you even ask the question?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I'm going to have to respectively disagree with this one. I think +/- is one of the more important stats as it shows the drive and defensive responsibility of a player as much it does their offensive ability. Whether you're a 1st line scorer or a 4th line checker you should never want to be scored on. It's all about skating hard and playing with motivation. Let's take Leino as an example, he's leading the team at -9 and he's bitching in the paper because his confidence is down and he's not scoring goals. The least he can do is skate his ass off, be physical, and be sound defensively. Babcock would then not bench his ass and then the goals would come. However in this "new" NHL a lot of these guys only care about scoring.

Bowman came here and instituted a defensive responsibility first culture starting with Yzerman and it lead the team to much success.

The problem is Leino's linemates get a minus just for being on the ice with him when a goal is scored.

This is a decent explanation of why +/- isn't a very useful stat.

But the short of it is that there's too many other factors that can give a player a plus or minus that has nothing to do with his actual performance. The teammates he's on the ice with, how good the team is overall, the opponents he's matched up against. So much of it depends on the context. And if you know enough about a player to have that context, then you don't need the +/- stat anyway.

[thedisappearer 291]

I'm going to have to respectively disagree with this one. I think +/- is one of the more important stats as it shows the drive and defensive responsibility of a player as much it does their offensive ability. Whether you're a 1st line scorer or a 4th line checker you should never want to be scored on. It's all about skating hard and playing with motivation. Let's take Leino as an example, he's leading the team at -9 and he's bitching in the paper because his confidence is down and he's not scoring goals. The least he can do is skate his ass off, be physical, and be sound defensively. Babcock would then not bench his ass and then the goals would come. However in this "new" NHL a lot of these guys only care about scoring.

Bowman came here and instituted a defensive responsibility first culture starting with Yzerman and it lead the team to much success.

Well, yes and no. +/- *can* be a good stat, but it's easily thrown off, and often, it has nothing to calculate. You coul have a great shift, finish checks, disprupt the other team's flow, but a defenseman makes a bad outlet pass and the puck is in the back of the net and you're -1. Also, you could have a horrible shift, be lazy as Lang, but someone else makes a great play, we score, and you're +1. Or you have a great shift,grinding and hitting, but your line even scores... you're even. I'm not throwing the stat out, but I take it with a grain of salt. In May's case, he doesn't play enough for it to be much more than plain luck, regardless of how well he's played. In Leino's case, it shows he's having a horrid season. Bertuzzi and Stuart, two players getting MVP nods here, are both negative. Helm, too, and there's a thread floating around here about how our whole team needs to play like him.

Maybe +/- factored with takeaways and giveaways, factored with hits, factored by shot blocked, factored by minutes played. I dunno.

[thedisappearer 291]

The problem is Leino's linemates get a minus just for being on the ice with him when a goal is scored.

This is a decent explanation of why +/- isn't a very useful stat.

But the short of it is that there's too many other factors that can give a player a plus or minus that has nothing to do with his actual performance. The teammates he's on the ice with, how good the team is overall, the opponents he's matched up against. So much of it depends on the context. And if you know enough about a player to have that context, then you don't need the +/- stat anyway.

Well, yeah, this too.

[b.shanafan14 733]

So...... the argument for May as an MVP is that his +/- could be worse and he fights? Fail.

He plays the least minutes and never against the other teams snipers. And as for his fisticuffs, most of his fights have been not to "enforce" but to provide entertainment value (Barch) or to send a general message of "wake up guys, go get'em" in agreement with another enforcer. While both are admirable, neither have added much to the team's success.

I have the utmost respect for what May does and I love him for it. I think he has been a solid addition to the team in that he hasn't hurt the team on the ice in his limited time, adds a character guy to the dressing room, and makes my hockey games more interesting when he starts to sling the kind of bombs he was laying on Boll last night (also being one of his only fights to take an actual "enforcer's" role, avenging hits on Datsyuk and Rafalski).

But come on people, there is a serious disconnect between a guy we all like for being a bruiser and calling that guy one of our best players. We're all glad to have him, but saying Brad May could be our MVP with any kind of seriousness is just ridiculous.

[jollymania 162]

None of those guys would ever want to fight him. They're not good enough.

He'd have to jump one of them and take the instigator penalty. Why did you even ask the question?

thus he isn't enforcing in those situations, believe me i want the instigator out too, but it proves that guys can still get away with big hits on our guys.

Edited December 30, 2009 by jollymania

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Well, yes and no. +/- *can* be a good stat, but it's easily thrown off, and often, it has nothing to calculate. You coul have a great shift, finish checks, disprupt the other team's flow, but a defenseman makes a bad outlet pass and the puck is in the back of the net and you're -1. Also, you could have a horrible shift, be lazy as Lang, but someone else makes a great play, we score, and you're +1. Or you have a great shift,grinding and hitting, but your line even scores... you're even. I'm not throwing the stat out, but I take it with a grain of salt. In May's case, he doesn't play enough for it to be much more than plain luck, regardless of how well he's played. In Leino's case, it shows he's having a horrid season. Bertuzzi and Stuart, two players getting MVP nods here, are both negative. Helm, too, and there's a thread floating around here about how our whole team needs to play like him.

Maybe +/- factored with takeaways and giveaways, factored with hits, factored by shot blocked, factored by minutes played. I dunno.

Good post, and let me preface with saying I wasn't advocating May as the MVP, I was just simply giving my opinion on the +/- stat. Both your's and Harold's posts are accurate in the way that there are many other factors that can skew this number (and thanks for the article Harold, that does slightly sway me). However, like in life, I would like to think the law of averages would eventually play out where in the end it can still give somewhat of an indication on whether or not the player is a liability on the ice.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Maybe an argument for all the people who don't like May would be that had he not been signed by the Wings, that's 1 less time that they get screwed by the officials with his goal being waived off.

[mjlegend 155]

I'm not necessarily anti-May but I am anti-crediting him with curing cancer, inventing the personal computer and building the Taj Mahal with his bare hands.

He's a six minute a game goon getting a lot of his games in the last few weeks due to his presence as a healthy body on a severely injured team. Nothing more, nothing less. He hasn't redefined the Winged Wheel. He's contributed nothing offensively, defensively, on special teams, or in the clutch. If he's an MVP candidate, I'm the king of Sweden.

[StormJH1 231]

I'm not necessarily anti-May but I am anti-crediting him with curing cancer, inventing the personal computer and building the Taj Mahal with his bare hands.

He's a six minute a game goon getting a lot of his games in the last few weeks due to his presence as a healthy body on a severely injured team. Nothing more, nothing less. He hasn't redefined the Winged Wheel. He's contributed nothing offensively, defensively, on special teams, or in the clutch. If he's an MVP candidate, I'm the king of Sweden.

Exactly. May has played better than I expected, and is worthy of a roster spot. But he also has one freakin' assist in 28 games (and, yes, one waived off goal). And the rationale for bringing him in was that it would "make us tougher" (and presumably more injury-resistent), and yet his arrival was accompanied by multiple long-term injuries (of both the purposeful and accidental variety) and weeks of terrible play. How "tough" you are ultimately has very little to do with the scoreboard, and it certainly isn't dictated by guys who are lucky to play 8 minutes a night.

Toughness only matters if you have guys who are tough and can actually PLAY. When people think of the lack of toughness on this team, they're probably thinking about guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but Datsyuk is actually an impressively physical player in the corners (which he was not in 2002)...he just doesn't choose to fly around checking guys or get into fights.

This whole toughness/fighting thing is an obvious straw man for frustrated Wings fans to beat up on b/c they needed some explaination as to why their team wasn't just walking into the playoffs like they do every year...

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I like May -- he fits nicely with the Red Wings and he plays his role very well for the team.

However, I don't think May is second for the Red Wings in MVP so far this season. If he is, that is big trouble for the Red Wings.

To me:

1. Stuart (easily and by far our best player)

2. Howard

3. Bertuzzi

Honorable mention to Kronwall, who was very good before the injury.

Edited December 30, 2009 by GoWings1905

[chrisdetroit 189]

I thought I'd take a look at this from a statistical perspective on Brad May and his value.

Lets first take a look overall at the Red Wings plus / minus system. This is the most overlooked stat in hockey by novice fans. First off, please note, that the Red Wings are -1 at home and -5 on the road overall as a team as of 12/28/2009.

Here are your leaders in the frowned upon "-" category:

19 Derek Meech -5

20 Jason Williams -5

21 Brett Lebda -6

22 Brad Stuart -6

23 Justin Abdelkader -6

24 Jonathan Ericsson -7

25 Valtteri Filppula -8

26 Dan Cleary -8

27 Ville Leino -9

As you can see +/- can be deceiving; take Stuart who logs so much icetime and we're scoring so little goals it is inevitable he'll have a plus minus that's low.

Brad May is at -3. This is quite remarkable compared to the others considering his line's purpose is not to score. This represents a superior two way game that provides good defensive effort from a forward. Please note, he makes $500,000.

Brad May's job is not to score goals; rather, protect the goal scorers. That being said, our goal scorers will step up. Call me NostrE_S_A_Damus, because I will predict right now that when the Wings return from injuries they will surge into higher standings. I guarantee they make the playoffs, so quit sweating.

MVP for the season so far goes as follows:

1. Brad Stuart

2. Brad May

3. Brad , errr, Mike Babcock

The Doghouse Awards:

1. Ville Leino

2. Pavel Datsyuk

3. Brett Meech

Since the Enforcer thread was closed abruptly, I thought we could analyze it this time from a more sophisticated statistical analysis.

Interesting logic. Based on that, since Lidstrom logs so much ice time and scores so few goals (this year) he should be a minus also but alas he is a +8 so there must be more to it than that. It's a measure of how good a player is defensively.

That said, look at the guys that are better in the +/- catagory than your boy May;

Zetterburg

Datsyuk

Holmsrom

Draper

Eaves

Miller

Maltby

Franzen

Helm

Lidstrom

Rafalski

Kronwall

What I find really interesting is that all three guys on the Eaves-Draper-Helm line have a better +/- than your boy May AND it isn't from scoring alot of goals.

What this tells me is that May is not particullary good defensively. He's not the worst on the team but he could be alot better. You are right, he's cheap but he is making the same money as Patrick Eaves who is +5 and has 4 goals and an assist compared to May's -3 with 0 goals and 1 assist.

Nice try but you have to look at ALL the statistics instead of just the ones that suit your argument.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Red Wings MVP's the last few years

2008- Aaron Downey

2009- Nobody (we had a ***** team)

2010- Brad May

[Guest Lidstromboli]

once newbury is called up and named detroit's captain, our toughness will increase by at least 286%

[Guest micah]

once newbury is called up and named detroit's captain, our toughness will increase by at least 286%

He is tied in goal scoring with our current Captain...

[Guest E_S_A_D]

I'm not necessarily anti-May but I am anti-crediting him with curing cancer, inventing the personal computer and building the Taj Mahal with his bare hands.

He's a six minute a game goon getting a lot of his games in the last few weeks due to his presence as a healthy body on a severely injured team. Nothing more, nothing less. He hasn't redefined the Winged Wheel. He's contributed nothing offensively, defensively, on special teams, or in the clutch. If he's an MVP candidate, I'm the king of Sweden.

You are witty. Stay up all night thinking of this?

[thedatsyukian 7]

You know your fans aren't used to an enforcer when they start calling a mediocre tough guy your teams mvp with the main argument being that he is a -3.