The Value of an Enforcer: Brad May/ The Misunderstood Point Sytem

[Pucks 66]

Brad May for MVP?.......Really?....... If being old, having your career on life support, getting punched is your face is MVP worthy, then yeah he's da man. Seriously man come on now. The sad part is your serious, and for that I have no response. Your thought process = fail.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Pucks

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You know your fans aren't used to an enforcer when they start calling a mediocre tough guy your teams mvp with the main argument being that he is a -3.

sad, but true.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Call me NostrE_S_A_Damus, because I will predict right now that when the Wings return from injuries they will surge into higher standings.

Wow, brilliant prediction. When Z, Cleary, Mule, Kronner come back we will do better. Huh I wouldn't have ever thought that might happen, you are really taking a bold stance. Let me try, I'll bet the Wings have red somewhere on their jerseys for the next game.

Well my point is there isn't much to analyze. You aren't going to get much from Brad May's +/- considering he plays five minutes a night, but from actually watching him play you can see he has done well.

Good for him.

Couldn't agree more. May is a good 500k addition to the team, has performed the role he was brought in to play well, and has brought excitement to game. Glad to have him on the team but is not what some make him out to be.

Red Wings MVP's the last few years

2008- Aaron Downey

2009- Nobody (we had a ***** team)

2010- Brad May

Great post.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I thought I'd take a look at this from a statistical perspective on Brad May and his value.

Lets first take a look overall at the Red Wings plus / minus system. This is the most overlooked stat in hockey by novice fans. First off, please note, that the Red Wings are -1 at home and -5 on the road overall as a team as of 12/28/2009.

Here are your leaders in the frowned upon "-" category:

19 Derek Meech -5

20 Jason Williams -5

21 Brett Lebda -6

22 Brad Stuart -6

23 Justin Abdelkader -6

24 Jonathan Ericsson -7

25 Valtteri Filppula -8

26 Dan Cleary -8

27 Ville Leino -9

I notice that you don't consider guys like Eaves. He also makes $500,000 but is a plus 5 (tied for fourth on the team) and has played 403:01 this season as opposed to May's 206:42. While not always true, generally you would think that May's +/- would go down if he played almost 50% more a game. This is in no way a knock on Brad May, I'm glad they brought him to the team and have been very happy with his play this season. It is a comment on: 1) your condescending statements of "a lesson in hockey scoring" and "the most overlooked stat in hockey by novice fans" as if you, with your infinite hockey wisdom are going to instruct everyone on the board; and 2) the rediculuous nature of using the fact that May is a -3 to prop him up as something that he is not. His line mate Maltby is a-1 has played more than 100 minutes more and is only making $883k. It is a silly argument to make that somehow May in his limited minutes, against the lines he plays against is somehow wonderful because he is only a -3.

Again this post is not intended to trash May, he has been great but because he has filled the role he was brought in to fill and not because he is only a -3.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

May, he has been great but because he has filled the role he was brought in to fill and not because he is only a -3.

I agree!

[thedisappearer 291]

So... any supersized egos need massaging in here? I think Mr Illitch can spring for a masseuse.

[newfy 695]

We have to look at why May was brought to the team. He wasn`t brought in to be a goal scorer or necessarily be a defensive star. He was brought to the team to fight when he needs to. It doesn't matter if you people who hate tough hockey like it or not thats why he's here.

May is one fight away from being in the top 10 most fights this season.

Compare him to the guys with the 6 or 7 million dollar contracts who are greatly underachieving and May is doing a great job.

plus/minus is a useless stat for this argument. May isn't on a goal scoring line and there are going to be times when he gets stuck against another teams top line. Of course he's going to get scored on. He isn't bad defensively, using the plus/minus argument shows you haven't been watching him play. Congrats you guys can read boxscores.

[Zetts 236]

I don't think the -3 argument is really the best one, but May certainly has played his role well. Glad to have him here.

I do wish that when we went after enforcers, we were going after some younger players who might also have more upside (although will admittedly stay in the bottom two lines). Particularly, players such as Brad Winchester come to mind. It's just frustrating seeing players like this come in and then leave due to retirement (Dallas Drake being another example).

Edited December 31, 2009 by Zetts

[Guest micah]

I don't think the -3 argument is really the best one, but May certainly has played his role well. Glad to have him here.

I do wish that when we went after enforcers, we were going after some younger players who might also have more upside (although will admittedly stay in the bottom two lines). Particularly, players such as Brad Winchester come to mind. It's just frustrating seeing players like this come in and then leave due to retirement (Dallas Drake being another example).

Winchester isn't really an enforcer though. I like the guy, but he's not willing and able to stand in with the lerague's biggest and baddest, May is.

I do agree that the Wings should invest in a tough guy who will stick around for more than a year or two this offseason though. I was really hoping for Colton Orr last summer - talks were rumoured, but alas it wasn't to be.

[Zetts 236]

Winchester isn't really an enforcer though. I like the guy, but he's not willing and able to stand in with the lerague's biggest and baddest, May is.

I do agree that the Wings should invest in a tough guy who will stick around for more than a year or two this offseason though. I was really hoping for Colton Orr last summer - talks were rumoured, but alas it wasn't to be.

I agree, but finding a real heavyweight who can play well is pretty difficult. That's why personally I'd give up a bit of the heavyweight status for a bit more playing ability. Then the player can get more ice time, and overall probably make more of an impact.

[Marty Barry 230]

I'm not necessarily anti-May but I am anti-crediting him with curing cancer, inventing the personal computer and building the Taj Mahal with his bare hands.

I do believe Algore would take exception to Mr. May laying credit to his accomplishments.

[Guest Shoreline]

Brad May's enforcing has nothing to do with +/-, so there's really no point in comparing the two. He plays few minutes, and certainly Babs is not going to put him out at virtually any point (unless the opposing team gets an advantageous line change) against another team's top line, or else his plus-minus would be FAR worse than it is now. I have a feeling that people like Leino and Datsyuk do, especially given all the instances of injuries, in Leino's case. I've heard all kinds of stupid s*** about what enforcers prevent. They prevent scrums and dirty plays. They prevent injuries. They prevent cancer. They prevent world wars. The value of an enforcer is not the ability to beat an opposing person up, and especially not to prevent anything, as having them on the ice or on the bench never prevented anything except people not enjoying watching two people fight. What is it's actual value to a team, then? On this team, who knows. I have yet to see it, beyond one facet of entertainment. However, the OP ties in plus-minus to Brad May's "value" and mentions enforcing like he's suggesting that Brad May is playing better than everyone else. If he were, he would be playing more than people who get called up from GR like Doug Janik.

Personally, I like the energy Brad May brings when he throws his body at people, finishing checks, or trying to cycle the puck down low to set up a possible scoring opportunity. You can't really find any "stat" for that, so we can cut the pseudo-intelligent BS of trying to impress those who ***** themselves over stats and making quite a hilariously ridiculous comparison. ESAD, if you weren't so busy patting yourself on the back (insert **** emoticon here), you might realize that this was one of the funniest comparisons seen in a while.

I don't mind fighting, it's entertaining. I think it adds flavor to a player if he can fight in addition to a far more important trait, which is score or at very least skate quickly, cause turnovers, or play good defense. However, this "value of an enforcer" gets propped up by those few people who want to pay exclusively way too much attention to fighting and little else, hence the bird-brained comparison to plus minus.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Shoreline

[cjm502 165]

I agree, but finding a real heavyweight who can play well is pretty difficult. That's why personally I'd give up a bit of the heavyweight status for a bit more playing ability. Then the player can get more ice time, and overall probably make more of an impact.

Shanny, McCarty, and Lilja were all middleweight fighters, but I would take a player that is like those guys in an instant.

[Guest micah]

The value of an enforcer is not the ability to beat an opposing person up, and especially not to prevent anything, as having them on the ice or on the bench never prevented anything except people not enjoying watching two people fight. What is it's actual value to a team, then? On this team, who knows. I have yet to see it, beyond one facet of entertainment.....Blah blah blah...However, this "value of an enforcer" gets propped up by those few people who want to pay exclusively way too much attention to fighting and little else, hence the bird-brained comparison to plus minus.

"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

You have yet to see it - but Mike Babcock and I see it. Keep looking. Maybe ask a grown up to help you.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

You have yet to see it - but Mike Babcock and I see it. Keep looking. Maybe ask a grown up to help you.

It is definitely noticeable how when May goes to the net, he doesn't get facewashed and screwed with the way other Wings players do. Even beyond May, just having guys who will drop the gloves like Abby and Janik helps. That's how Perry ended up getting ragdolled by Ericsson. He was screwing with him after the whistle, not realizing Ericsson will actually fight.

This day an age it's hard for a guy that's just an enforcer to be that useful because they play such limited minutes, but it helps. Better still is guys who can play the game and knock people's lights out, but they're hard to come by.

[Guest zackmorris]

Man, take 50 steps back and look at hockey. Are we full of ******* or what? Pansies and back-fighters who will only mess with someone when they can't defend themselves. I mean looking at it from the human perspective and not as a strategy. How f***in sad is it when ****** bags like Corey Perry only back up their mouth when they think they're up against a softie. The whole "pest" thing to me was just another term for fairy with no guts.

[Dominator2005 558]

Man, take 50 steps back and look at hockey. Are we full of ******* or what? Pansies and back-fighters who will only mess with someone when they can't defend themselves. I mean looking at it from the human perspective and not as a strategy. How f***in sad is it when ****** bags like Corey Perry only back up their mouth when they think they're up against a softie. The whole "pest" thing to me was just another term for fairy with no guts.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Leino has played much better tonight as a result of playing with Brad May.

See, an enforcer can toughen a soft euro up and help him grow a pair of balls.

That's the value of a tough guy that anti-enforcer people don't understand.

[Guest zackmorris]

Leino has played much better tonight as a result of playing with Brad May.

See, an enforcer can toughen a soft euro up and help him grow a pair of balls.

That's the value of a tough guy that anti-enforcer people don't understand.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Man, take 50 steps back and look at hockey. Are we full of ******* or what? Pansies and back-fighters who will only mess with someone when they can't defend themselves. I mean looking at it from the human perspective and not as a strategy. How f***in sad is it when ****** bags like Corey Perry only back up their mouth when they think they're up against a softie. The whole "pest" thing to me was just another term for fairy with no guts.

Are you saying Jonathan Ericsson is a softie?

[Guest zackmorris]

Are you saying Jonathan Ericsson is a softie?

I'm saying Perry assumed he was.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I'm saying Perry assumed he was.

Based on what?

[Guest zackmorris]

Based on what?

...not knowing who he was.

Are you seriously going to start an argument over nothing?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

...not knowing who he was.

Are you seriously going to start an argument over nothing?

Are you seriously going to act surprised that someone has a different opinion than you on a discussion forum?

The entire point of my post was to point out that Perry is not intimidated by "tough" enforcer players. He is a tool and acts like it regardless of who is on the ice.

I also think the "pansification" of this team is ridiculously overblown and I see nothing to prove that the team has been or is timid and soft in relation to the rest of the NHL.

[Guest zackmorris]

Are you seriously going to act surprised that someone has a different opinion than you on a discussion forum?

The entire point of my post was to point out that Perry is not intimidated by "tough" enforcer players. He is a tool and acts like it regardless of who is on the ice.

I've seen enough from Perry to know he takes more liberties when he thinks he won't get his ass kicked. If you think it was a bad example, then you think it was a bad example. I could give a f***, I'm more concerned with the original point I was trying to make. If you want to replace Perry's name with someone who in your view is more of a *****, then by all means be my guest.