The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

The only pattern I see is how Osgood has been very inconsistent the last two regular seasons. Who is to say Conklin wouldn't have came in and played well like Osgood?

When Babcock mentioned that the number one spot was up for grabs Conklin faltered and Osgood played well.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Sure as hell wasn't good? It wasn't bad, so I'd say it was good. If it wasn't for him we would've lost 6-0 or God forbid, worse.

Rotflmmfao

Overworked? After 26 games? C'mon you've gotta have a better excuse than that. He's a 25 year old professional athlete, I'm pretty sure he can handle a few starts in a row.

It's not just a two-goals thing. You're not seeing the forest for the trees-it's that Ozzie consistently did that sort of s***, and Howard consistently doesn't.

Oh quit this, it's bulls*** and we both know it. Grow a pair and admit he wasn't that bad in the Ducks game.

I counter everything said to me, it's not my problem if you don't like it. God the stupid attitude on some people around here...amazing. I guess when you stay confined to one forum you fall prey to the parent effect a little too easily.

He was bad during the Ducks game.

If you think that performance over the season (3.00 GAA mind you) is acceptable then you need your head examined. And if Howard played well THAT game then we might as well say Osgood played well against Chicago with his soft goals. Against a much better team.

[Guest zackmorris]

When Babcock mentioned that the number one spot was up for grabs Conklin faltered and Osgood played well.

And depending upon how deep you are into a heated debate, the side you've taken and your personal bias, this could either be...

-Coincidence, because during an 82 game stretch, a hot goalie is going to screw up eventually and Conks had been great to that point

or...

-Ozzie coming through when he was needed and Conklin being weak mentally

Both sound logical and correct. But if Ozzie is so strong mentally and confident and whatever, why would the Howard thing bother him?

Edited January 7, 2010 by zackmorris

[Carman 387]

When Babcock mentioned that the number one spot was up for grabs Conklin faltered and Osgood played well.

After Conklin had to carry the load most of the year. Not like that situation hurt the team anyways, which is my point. This shouldn't be as big of a deal as it's made out to be.

If Jimmy Howard let's in 5 bad goals on 20 shots and still gets the start then I'll agree there is something going on, or when Osgood gets a start and puts up a shut out yet doesn't get the next start.

Until that happens this is all just tactics by a coach to win games. That's all it is, at least to me.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

After Conklin had to carry the load most of the year. Not like that situation hurt the team anyways, which is my point. This shouldn't be as big of a deal as it's made out to be.

If Jimmy Howard let's in 5 bad goals on 20 shots and still gets the start then I'll agree there is something going on, or when Osgood gets a start and puts up a shut out yet doesn't get the next start.

Until that happens this is all just tactics by a coach to win games. That's all it is, at least to me.

Conklin played 40 games that season. And it didn't seem like either goalie played a significant amount of games over the other in each given month (other than December).

Edited January 7, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[Carman 387]

Conklin played 40 games that season. And it didn't seem like either goalie played a significant amount of games over the other in each given month (other than December).

Did that situation hurt the team in anyway?

[Guest zackmorris]

He was bad during the Ducks game.

If you think that performance over the season (3.00 GAA mind you) is acceptable then you need your head examined. And if Howard played well THAT game then we might as well say Osgood played well against Chicago with his soft goals. Against a much better team.

Hockey on paper, by Doc Holliday

I've seen Ozzie let him bad goals and I've seen Howard let in bad goals. Mike Babcock and his coaching staff didn't see enough to keep him out of the net and neither did I. Maybe we all need our heads examined? Maybe you can perform the treatment, Doc. Osgood is on the bench because he let in whiffers, that killed momentum and our chances at winning. Multiple times. He has barely been consistent all season and alot of people worry when he's between the pipes. That's probably what Babs is remembering and doesn't want.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Sure as hell wasn't good or hot. There were two bad goals (Osgood had two bad bad goals against Chicago but his play in the third is overlooked simply because of the fact he let in two soft goals).

Same panic that entices people to think that Howard deserves 7 starts in a row over Osgood simply because they think that Howard may play better. He is getting overworked, and it showed last game.

And switch it up when the hot hand cools off. That was the Anaheim game in a nutshell.

Well when a goalie who lets in two softies gets the next start, after the other goaltender did the same thing but hasn't played since, it isn't simply about how well you do in the games anymore. And based on Bab's comments it isn't about how well you do in practice either. So what is it?

Well the simplist answer isn't always the correct one, and since Howard did not have a good game against Anaheim it would seem like Babcock would want to start Osgood. This isn't about performance if you saw the Anaheim game.

Of course you can shrug it off and call me an Osgood fanboy. I personally hope I'm wrong and Howard leads Detroit to a win tonight. However I believe that Howard is getting worn out when it isn't necessary to.

And once again if you are going to discuss things logically with a poster, bring some of your own. You haven't been too hot with the logic yourself, and have chosen to ignore some of my posts as well. Should I call you a homer and fanatical? Or is it just for those who don't justify every one of Babcock's decisions.

Exactly, all points.

This is a discussion forum and it works well when we are mixing points and counter-points. As soon as you dismiss the opinions that differ from your own as "fanboys" being biased and stupid with no grounds to argue such a point, you've probably lost perspective yourself. Remember, the reason we are all here arguing 23 pages on a subject is because we are all, to one degree or another, "fanboys"

[Broken 16 381]

Funniest comment I've read on this thread is the notion that Jimmy Howard is overworked. That's a stretch.

After reading Babcock's comments, I seriously doubt there is a personal vendetta. I think the major reason Babcock is keeping Howard in is because our PK has improved drastically since Howard has been getting a majority of the starts. Osgood has looked awful on the PK. That's the trump card I think.

*Queue Outsider with a million meaningless, skewed stats to show otherwise*

Edited January 7, 2010 by Broken 16

[Outsider 42]

You are going to provide a link or cite who "those" people are if you are going to put such strong words in both Holland's and Babcock's mouth.

You're absolutely right, Statts. I haven't posted that anywhere before because I'm NOT going to cite the source. That being the case, I should've kept my big mouth shut on the matter. They were not my words, and I had no right to post anything which was disclosed in confidence. I I'll go back and *edit* my original post.

I'd appreciate if you could do likewise, to remove the offending text. You're 100% correct. It should never have been posted here. No matter how heated the discussion.

[Guest zackmorris]

Funniest comment I've read on this thread is the notion that Jimmy Howard is overworked. That's a stretch.

After reading Babcock's comments, I seriously doubt there is a personal vendetta. I think the major reason Babcock is keeping Howard in is because our PK has improved drastically since Howard has been getting a majority of the starts. Osgood has looked awful on the PK. That's the trump card I think.

*Queue Outsider with a million meaningless, skewed stats to show otherwise*

One of the best posts so far.

I'm a fanboy. You're damn right I am. I'm a blind supporter of the Red Wings, the logo on the front and the team in general. I could give a s*** if we're putting Ed Belfour, drunk at age 94 in our net over my favorite goalie of all time...if he's giving us the best chance to win, so be it. At the end of the day we ***** about a loss no matter who is in net.

Edited January 7, 2010 by zackmorris

[Evans_18 4]

This has been getting a bit crazy. I am sure everyone here will agree that yes Ozzie has let in soft goals. But what about the fact that Ozzie has also been there to bails us out with key saves when we need them. And do not get my wrong Howard has been excellent especially due to the fact that he is technically a rookie net minder and he has impressed me compared to the little glimpses we have seen of him before this season. Ozzie has his weakness of that soft goal situation but look at all those nice juicy rebounds that Howard lets out consistently. And another thing people can not deny is some of the bad judgment calls he has made on playing the puck a few times which have resulted in a goal or a teammate bailing him out like Helm did.

For it being Howard's rookie year I think we need to not ride him so hard. Yes the best way to get experience is to do something firsthand but it is also best to pick your battles. After an outing in Anaheim that did not go his way I have to ask. Is it really a good idea to throw Howard back in 2 days later against L.A., who have been exceptional when you look at how they have been in the standings the past few years? And also due to the fact that Kopitar has been hot this year. I mean come on look how bad L.A. made the Sharks look. If we have an outing against the Kings like the Sharks did then that can be a major blow to Howard's confidence.

[ilmickeyli 40]

I mean come on look how bad L.A. made the Sharks look. If we have an outing against the Kings like the Sharks did then that can be a major blow to Howard's confidence.

Sounds like at this point it would be more hurtful to Ozzie's feelings if he got lit up.

[Broken 16 381]

For it being Howard's rookie year I think we need to not ride him so hard. Yes the best way to get experience is to do something firsthand but it is also best to pick your battles. After an outing in Anaheim that did not go his way I have to ask. Is it really a good idea to throw Howard back in 2 days later against L.A., who have been exceptional when you look at how they have been in the standings the past few years? And also due to the fact that Kopitar has been hot this year. I mean come on look how bad L.A. made the Sharks look. If we have an outing against the Kings like the Sharks did then that can be a major blow to Howard's confidence.

Howards confidence will be fine. Jesus... you people act like hockey players are fragile little flowers. Like I said in another thread, Osgood s*** the bed big time early in his career against San Jose. Let in a weak goal in a game 7. Cried during a news interview. He turned out ok.

[Guest lilja4mvp]

now howard is "overworked"

[Outsider 42]

Funniest comment I've read on this thread is the notion that Jimmy Howard is overworked. That's a stretch.

After reading Babcock's comments, I seriously doubt there is a personal vendetta. I think the major reason Babcock is keeping Howard in is because our PK has improved drastically since Howard has been getting a majority of the starts. Osgood has looked awful on the PK. That's the trump card I think.

*Queue Outsider with a million meaningless, skewed stats to show otherwise*

Take a quick gander at the "blocked shots" stats over the last little while, Broken. The Wings are last in the League, but over the month of DECEMBER, (when the PK "mysteriously" improved), they improved dramatically in the shot blocking department.

If I'm not mistaken, Babcock specifically, and very pointedly, made reference to it as the main reason why the Kill had improve.

**Edit** Turns out I wasn't mistaken:

Coach Mike Babcock pleased with Red Wings' improvement on blocking shots....

**snip**

"Patrick Eaves set the whole thing up," Babcock said. "We never would get in the shooting lane. Suddenly now, we're all in the shooting lane and we're blocking shots, so they don't shoot it as much and you get way more guaranteed outs (puck clearings).

"He's been excellent at that and it's been contagious. Now, Helm's doing it and (Drew) Miller's doing it. The more we have of that the better off we are."

As I've been saying, ( a ) It's not all Howard, the Team is playing better in front of him than they were at the beginning of the Season and ( b ) It's also the Teams they're facing. It's much easier to play better against Teams which are not as offensively talented.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Outsider

[Evans_18 4]

It's about a goalies ability to rebound from a bad outing. He is a rookie and this is a time when confidence is important. Babcock is going by the "Hot hand" and usually for a goalie to be "hot" that requires confidence in himself to perform well.

And we know Ozzie has the ability to rebound from a bad performance so in no way would I think that even a lose to the Kings with Ozzie in net and we know he will be just fine.

And I am going to go out on a limb here because I am pretty sure I will be correct in this statement. I am going to say right now that you have never played the position of goalie have you Broken. It is a high pressure role on a team due to the fact that people can place blame easily on you. and that is what makes confidence so important especially for a rookie goalie in the league. I am in no way saying that Howard is " a fragile little flower" But I am saying multiple bad outings in a row can cause him to question his ability as a goaltender and there for cause worse play from him.

[Broken 16 381]

Take a quick gander at the "blocked shots" stats over the last little while, Broken. The Wings are last in the League, but over the month of DECEMBER, (when the PK "mysteriously" improved), they improved dramatically in the shot blocking department.

If I'm not mistaken, Babcock specifically, and very pointedly, made reference to it as the main reason why the Kill had improve.

Howard has still looked better on the PK. He battles harder. I've seen him physically push players (even his own!) out of the way to get to the puck so he can freeze it. Osgood has taken more of a 'sit back in the net and hope it hits me' mentality into his PK's. At least, that's how it looks to me. Our PK has been a MAJOR Achilles heel this season. Howards size and athleticism give him an edge in that department. Factor in that he appears to battle harder, and I can fully see why Babcock would prefer Howard in net.

Be honest... this season so far, who would you rather have in net for a PK? Why?

Edit:

Obviously the emergence of Eaves and Janik as penalty killers has helped. No doubt. I'll even buy that they are the MAIN reason. But not the ONLY reason.

That's why this argument is so stupid (far be it from me to avoid a stupid argument). Hockey teams aren't built on absolutes. Sure... there are main reasons for everything. Doesn't mean it's the only reason. Far from it 99% of the time.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Broken 16

[Evans_18 4]

Have you even taken into consideration of the huge improvement on defense this year? No one can deny that in the early part of the season our defense was atrocious. And with that fact people need to realize that when defense was struggling that it was also the point in time when Ozzie was getting his starts and yet he still has decent statistics on the year. So besides for the fact that Outsider pointed out, we are blocking more shots, but our vast improvement on defense since the beginning of the year is also credited to the improvement of the penalty kill.

[Broken 16 381]

It's about a goalies ability to rebound from a bad outing. He is a rookie and this is a time when confidence is important. Babcock is going by the "Hot hand" and usually for a goalie to be "hot" that requires confidence in himself to perform well.

Howard has no reason to not be confident. Zero.

And we know Ozzie has the ability to rebound from a bad performance so in no way would I think that even a lose to the Kings with Ozzie in net and we know he will be just fine.

Ozzie has been known to string together a few stinkers. What makes you think Howard isn't the same, or better at it? I'm pretty sure Babcock is more aware of Jimmy Howards mental state than you are.

And I am going to go out on a limb here because I am pretty sure I will be correct in this statement. I am going to say right now that you have never played the position of goalie have you Broken. It is a high pressure role on a team due to the fact that people can place blame easily on you. and that is what makes confidence so important especially for a rookie goalie in the league. I am in no way saying that Howard is " a fragile little flower" But I am saying multiple bad outings in a row can cause him to question his ability as a goaltender and there for cause worse play from him.

I played goalie for one season on an inline league once. I hated it.

When has Howard had multiple bad outings this season? His outing in Anaheim wasn't bad. So, his confidence destroying string of bad outings hasn't even begun yet.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Broken 16

[Outsider 42]

Howard has still looked better on the PK. He battles harder. I've seen him physically push players (even his own!) out of the way to get to the puck so he can freeze it. Osgood has taken more of a 'sit back in the net and hope it hits me' mentality into his PK's. At least, that's how it looks to me. Our PK has been a MAJOR Achilles heel this season. Howards size and athleticism give him an edge in that department. Factor in that he appears to battle harder, and I can fully see why Babcock would prefer Howard in net.

Be honest... this season so far, who would you rather have in net for a PK? Why?

Of course Howard looks like he's battling harder, while Osgood is "sitting in his net". Osgood kows that a questionable goal could probably put him back on the bench for another TWO WEEKS. A goaltender needs to be relaxed in net, to "flow" with the play, to use every piece of equipment like an extension of his body, and for every move to feel instinctual - like something his body "should" be doing. Right now, Howard has the luxury of playing that way. Osgood does not.

That's because Howard knows that even after a crappy Game against Edmonton, or a crappy Game against Dallas, or a crappy Game against Chicago, and now a crappy Game against the Ducks.....he's STILL going to get an opportunity to get right back at it.

Osgood knows that if he doesn't play at "the best he can be", (again Babcock's EXACT words), he's likely to be benched, AGAIN, for another two weeks, before he's thrown out there and expected to be "the best he can be" when he's ice cold.

He's playing tight. Howard is not.

If you don't think that's going to have an effect on how a goalie "looks" when he plays, then you haven't ever watched hockey.

And you know that's a fact.

[Pucks 66]

Glad that others have picked up the voice of reason and common sense I was trying to convey in the thread. My head was beginning to numb from banging it against the wall. I think most people want the team to have the best chance to win, including the coaching staff.

[Outsider 42]

When has Howard had multiple bad outings this season? His outing in Anaheim wasn't bad. So, his confidence destroying string of bad outings hasn't even begun yet.

The goals that Osgood let in against Chicago, (with all the extenuating circumstances of that Game), were no worse than the first two goals Howard let in against the Ducks last night, at equally "bad times" in the Game.

ALSO Against a VASTLY inferior Team. Under much better circumstances.

You cannot deny that. And even YOU acknowledged it when you saw Babcock's comments about how "good" Jimmy played against Anaheim.

[Broken 16 381]

Of course Howard looks like he's battling harder, while Osgood is "sitting in his net". Osgood kows that a questionable goal could probably put him back on the bench for another TWO WEEKS. A goaltender needs to be relaxed in net, to "flow" with the play, to use every piece of equipment like an extension of his body, and for every move to feel instinctual - like something his body "should" be doing. Right now, Howard has the luxury of playing that way. Osgood does not.

So, in other words, Osgood is timid in net. That's HIS problem. He's a big boy.

That's because Howard knows that even after a crappy Game against Edmonton, or a crappy Game against Dallas, or a crappy Game against Chicago, and now a crappy Game against the Ducks.....he's STILL going to get an opportunity to get right back at it.

I know you really believe this so I'm just gonna let that one go.

Osgood knows that if he doesn't play at "the best he can be", (again Babcock's EXACT words), he's likely to be benched, AGAIN, for another two weeks, before he's thrown out there and expected to be "the best he can be" when he's ice cold.

In other words, Osgood is only better than Howard when he is at his best. My advice to Osgood is to get his ass to being at his best if he wants to play.

[Evans_18 4]

Im not saying that his confidence is shot at all. You are now taking things out of context, wonderful move to put your point across but no. I am stating that with a not so great game in Anaheim, a short handed goal off of someones own rebound never should have happened, and a now potential disaster for Howard against the Kings, that is taking into consideration that they make Howard look as bad as they made Nabakov look the other night.

What I am trying to get across is the fact that we might be setting Howard up for a slump in his rookie season. I have no clue how a slump will affect him considering even all star caliber goalies have there slumps. But also its something to worry about because look how many goalies have came into this league, had a great season, and then the next year were nothing more but a mediocre back up and forgotten.

There is a chance of this happening and there is a chance that it does not. Howard still has a lot to learn about being in the NHL and yes for him to be on the ice and playing is a fantastic way to get used to it, also taking some time on the bench and watching Ozzie play so he can see what he does and does not do well and take those things and factor them into his own play. Osgood is his mentor and that is good for him because we know that if Howard does slump or have a loss of confidence that Ozzie will be there for him and no one is better at dealing with adversity then he is.