The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Vladifan 680]

Did you apply this rationale to Bowman, who damn near ran Yzerman out of town, and treated all the players like s***? Doubtful...

Bowman got great results. I think partly because of his rep and partly because he was "democratic" with his controlling-type behavior. What's Babcock's record right now? Is what he's doing working? I think not.

[Guest lilja4mvp]

ozzie on suicide watch, confirmed

[Vladifan 680]

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100105/OP...it-in-standings

"Reasons to stress

Also, as good as Jimmy Howard has been, at some point Chris Osgood will have to be re-established as the No. 1 goalie. It's unlikely the Wings want to put their playoff hopes on the shoulders of a rookie goalie. Osgood has been the best playoff goalie in the league the last two years.

But the process of getting him re-established could be rough. What if Howard continues to keep his save percentage above .920? What if the Wings continue to roll with him in net? When does Osgood get a chance to get his rhythm back? What happens when Osgood comes back and maybe struggles for a game or two?

Teams have been torn apart by lesser issues.

^THIS^, and from a sports source other than us know-nothing posters. :deal:

[Vladifan 680]

ozzie on suicide watch, confirmed

You might want to include the whole team with this one. They just don't know it yet.

Naw, maybe it's just an unconfirmed death wish.

[Carman 387]

Bowman got great results. I think partly because of his rep and partly because he was "democratic" with his controlling-type behavior. What's Babcock's record right now? Is what he's doing working? I think not.

Not even Bowman could save this team with the injuries we've had.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Not even Bowman could save this team with the injuries we've had.

And neither can Jimmy Howard apparently, so why not give Osgood a start more than 2 or 3 times a month?

[Guest lilja4mvp]

not sure what the problem is if howard keeps up a .920 and the wings continue to "roll" with him in net. newsflash, mccosky - that's pretty much our best case scenario.

we're struggling to make the playoffs here. who gives a s*** about ozzie's bruised ego?

[Vladifan 680]

Not even Bowman could save this team with the injuries we've had.

OK, so which is it? That this team should be able to figure out a way to win in spite of the injuries like a lot of posters here are saying? Or is it that we're not winning mostly because of the injuries? The latter is what I believe, but Babcock is still wrong to not play Ozzie - just to keep him in mental and physical shape, IF for NO other reason.

[Broken 16 381]

Would it be possible Osgood being traded for someone?? how does that sound?? who would you like for a replacement?? maybe Biron who is likely to be put on free agent??

I mean, it's just a question i am making.. I don't think Ozzy can't stand being a backup of a guy who is 11 years younger and is doing slightly better than him on this two past years

I was thinking the same thing. With McCollum and Larsson in the system, and ready to go (sorta), maybe Osgood isn't part of the long term plans anymore. The emergence of Howard almost makes having Osgood redundant. Maybe he's on his way out the door.

[Carman 387]

And neither can Jimmy Howard apparently, so why not give Osgood a start more than 2 or 3 times a month?

Because Osgood is not doing what he needs to do to get in games, and Jimmy is.

[russianswede919293 95]

I was thinking the same thing. With McCollum and Larsson in the system, and ready to go (sorta), maybe Osgood isn't part of the long term plans anymore. The emergence of Howard almost makes having Osgood redundant. Maybe he's on his way out the door.

At the end of his current contract I believe he is.

But if you look at Grand Rapids as of late neither Larsson or McCollum are ready to go...at all...

Anyways:

Instead of looking at how many games goaltending lost us, lets look at how many it won us. With the offense not scoring much how many games have we won without scoring much

Detroit has won 8 games scoring 3 goals or less since the Ozzie flu, and Howard was in net for 7 of them.

Being able to win games when your team is scoring 3 goals or less in a game is a reason to stay in net.

I am comfortable with Howard for now. I would like to see Ozzie mixed in more often, but Howard is winning games with poor goal support right now and that is the main reason he has stayed in games. He also has gotten the team the extra OT point in games with low scoring as well.

I am not knocking on Ozzie. I think once he gets back in he will win his job back and be great in the playoffs. But why is it so bad to have the 25 year old rookie goalie pegged as future starter finally succeeding, even if it is at expense of the 37 year old potential hall of famer. I love Ozzie. He is my favorite goalie all time, and he is the reason I play goal.

But he can't be the "playoff goalie" forever. He has reached an age where consistency through an entire season is hard for him to find. And yes while he lights it up in the playoffs he won't be there forever. Getting Howard enough playing time to eventually become the playoff goalie isn't a bad thing.

Is Ozzie playing terrible. No. But Howard is playing better. And Howard is 12 years younger, and more involved in the long term plans of this team.

His success is a good thing. Be patient. Ozzie will get in again.

[Opie 308]

Not picking sides just pointing out somethings I think are being overlooked:

1. The Wings are out of the playoffs right now, Wins are necessary not OT wins regulation wins. Babs is doing whatever he can to get wins.

2. Howard is the apparent Future in net, get him going now, Babs will need him in the future why not get him experience when wins are necessary, why wait until the Wings are comfortably in the playoff picture to give him meaningless starts.

3. Ozzie has to be ready for the playoffs (I know it has been mentioned but I can not overlook this fact).

4. People are pointing to Ozzie's last couple of years wins to as a reason to start him yet bashing babs in the same post. Well in the last 4 years who has had more success; Babs or Ozzie? If Ozzie gets a break for taking the team to the cup and the 7th game what does babs get for coaching the team there and winning 50 games more times in a row than any other coach?

5. Ozzie needs to look stellar to get this team where they need to be, last year the benching/time off Ozzie got put his head in the game and he got going towards the end of the season and into the playoffs. With this lack of offense an "Average" Osgood is not going to get this offensively non-existent team into the post season. A stellar Ozzie could carry them to the cup, a Howard playing out of his mind could do the same but the chances of it happening are a lot less likely than Ozzie returning to post season form.

All in all, the Wings are in the playoff hunt with a top 6 that is more bottom 6 than anything else. This team is starting to come back and if the O can chip in both Ozzie and Howard will be enough to help the team make a run. The biggest problem on this team is scoring not goaltending.

If you are butt hurt because your fav player is on the bench too bad, root for the front of the jersey forget what it says on the back, stop looking for reasons player x should or shouldn't be playing.

The losing streaks have become fewer and fewer as the season has gone, when the offense comes back and the team starts to climb up the ladder into a playoff spot look for Ozzie to get more starts.

Right now I think Babs is trying to get Ozzie pissed and ready to play like it!

[russianswede919293 95]

Not picking sides just pointing out somethings I think are being overlooked:

1. The Wings are out of the playoffs right now, Wins are necessary not OT wins regulation wins. Babs is doing whatever he can to get wins.

2. Howard is the apparent Future in net, get him going now, Babs will need him in the future why not get him experience when wins are necessary, why wait until the Wings are comfortably in the playoff picture to give him meaningless starts.

3. Ozzie has to be ready for the playoffs (I know it has been mentioned but I can not overlook this fact).

4. People are pointing to Ozzie's last couple of years wins to as a reason to start him yet bashing babs in the same post. Well in the last 4 years who has had more success; Babs or Ozzie? If Ozzie gets a break for taking the team to the cup and the 7th game what does babs get for coaching the team there and winning 50 games more times in a row than any other coach?

5. Ozzie needs to look stellar to get this team where they need to be, last year the benching/time off Ozzie got put his head in the game and he got going towards the end of the season and into the playoffs. With this lack of offense an "Average" Osgood is not going to get this offensively non-existent team into the post season. A stellar Ozzie could carry them to the cup, a Howard playing out of his mind could do the same but the chances of it happening are a lot less likely than Ozzie returning to post season form.

All in all, the Wings are in the playoff hunt with a top 6 that is more bottom 6 than anything else. This team is starting to come back and if the O can chip in both Ozzie and Howard will be enough to help the team make a run. The biggest problem on this team is scoring not goaltending.

If you are butt hurt because your fav player is on the bench too bad, root for the front of the jersey forget what it says on the back, stop looking for reasons player x should or shouldn't be playing.

The losing streaks have become fewer and fewer as the season has gone, when the offense comes back and the team starts to climb up the ladder into a playoff spot look for Ozzie to get more starts.

Right now I think Babs is trying to get Ozzie pissed and ready to play like it!

I typically like the way you put things in perspective. All valid points pointing to both why Howard is in and why Ozzie needs to get going as well.

[Miller Brew 0]

I think the point is to a lot of peoples' argument is why play Osgood to get "in groove" for the playoffs if Wings are not going to make the playoffs. So I think the first goal of the season is to make the playoffs then deal with the post season after we make it.

It's a double edge sword for Babs. If he plays Howie, he's a bad coach because he's not allowing Osgood to get in groove. However, if he plays Osgood and Ozzy can't win games like red-hot howie, then Babcock is a bad coach for not playing the hot-hand. Then I'm sure all the pro-Osgood members here will say it's Babcock's fault for not making the playoffs...

I say we should deal with the regular season now and worry about the post season if we make it. Play Howie

[Guest mindfly]

It's probably time for me to enter this discussion

It's kinda weird how things work in this world when it comes to sports, see you still notice that Howard while playing learning how to play basically, he has barely learnt how to hold and handle the stick and more often than not you see him slip and swim on the ice like a click of butter in a hot frying pan if ya'll get me, but as long as wings get wins and people manage to hit him with the pucks it's all good... right?

Messed up world of sports... more reasonable would be babcock giving osgood more games because we all know that detroit and their management won't go with a rookie come playoff time or when it matters.

On the other hand, Osgood doesn't seem to give a s*** during the regular season and only shows upp for the playoffs.. so do you go with a goaltender that isn't really that good its more the team that play extremely well defensively and bail him out more times than he bail the team out or with a veteran goaltender who take nights off, and doesn't seem to care about the regular season..

Dilemma...Dilemma

Edited January 7, 2010 by mindfly

[Opie 308]

I typically like the way you put things in perspective. All valid points pointing to both why Howard is in and why Ozzie needs to get going as well.

Careful, when I throw out a s***ty post it is usually really s***ty and aimed at the wrong poster and going off on a point that was never made. It is my Jekyl and Hyde, one thread I appear like I have a clue and the next I look like a complete asshat, but I am so that is ok!

Back to the point:

This is a hard spot for anybody who pays attention to the Wings: haters, fans, hockey enthusiasts.

If you are a fan or a member of the team this probably the most unfamiliar feeling in 15 years, 9th place hoping for a playoff spot, the Wings are struggling to make the playoffs, are pinning their hopes to a rookie netminder (for now) and have zero offense a very unRed Wing like trait! This team is usually in the hunt for the pres trophy right now, not hoping Nas/Pho/Chi go on losing streaks!

For haters/duck/pens/etc fans on the one hand it looks great the Wings are struggling to make the playoffs, are pinning their hopes to a rookie netminder (for now) and have zero offense a very unRed Wing like trait! It is great, then you look on the other hand, the Wings have 3-4 impact players working their way back and could easily start popping on offense, a motivated and hard working Wings team is not something we have seen a lot of in the first round lately!

EDIT: Mindfly,

I go with the guy the team is saving, just my opinion and here is why. The team in general seems to work less hard in their own zone when Ozzie is between the pipes, granted we have only had a small sample of that lately. But when J-Ho is in net, the team seems to be more prepared to work harder in their own end, to help Jimmy because if they don't the first period in the ANA game is 3/4/5 -0 maybe?

The team seems to play better defense in front of J-Ho, maybe that is because he is the worse of the two goalies and the team feels with him in net they need to work harder for the win.

I don't know just guessing here!

Edited January 7, 2010 by Opie

[b.shanafan14 733]

Because Osgood is not doing what he needs to do to get in games, and Jimmy is.

Is he not taking accurate enough stats? Thats the flaw with the "hot goaltender plays" philosophy. Howard is doing well, but the Wings are not winning with regularity because of their absent offense. So, at this point, no matter how good or bad Howard does, he is still being called the "hot goaltender". Lets look at the last time Osgood got a start:

- Howard wastes a good offensive effort with subpar play on the first of a back-to-back against Dallas.

- Osgood plays the next night rather solid against a solid Chicago team with all of the offensive players tanked from double-shifting the night before, Wings lose 0-3, shots 20-35.

- Three days later, Howard plays the same Chicago team, losing 0-3, shots 33-31.

What exactly has Osgood done so poorly since then? No one is arguing that Howard isn't the better goalie at this point, but its a given considering there is little to evaluate Osgood's performance at this point of the season. The problem is we have a goaltender that we all acknowledge we need to get going, and instead of taking a dry spell to get both going, we are riding and overworking a single rookie tender because why? Because we ASSUME Osgood is that much worse? That's the issue here.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but because we have two threads for the same argument I think I'll say it again, but didn't Osgood get a prolonged break late last year that he accredited his playoff success to? Granted he has been on the bench for a bit longer now than he was during that break, but I don't know if I buy that his being benched is necessarily a bad thing for his performance down the road.

[Carman 387]

Is he not taking accurate enough stats? Thats the flaw with the "hot goaltender plays" philosophy. Howard is doing well, but the Wings are not winning with regularity because of their absent offense. So, at this point, no matter how good or bad Howard does, he is still being called the "hot goaltender". Lets look at the last time Osgood got a start:

- Howard wastes a good offensive effort with subpar play on the first of a back-to-back against Dallas.

- Osgood plays the next night rather solid against a solid Chicago team with all of the offensive players tanked from double-shifting the night before, Wings lose 0-3, shots 20-35.

- Three days later, Howard plays the same Chicago team, losing 0-3, shots 33-31.

What exactly has Osgood done so poorly since then? No one is arguing that Howard isn't the better goalie at this point, but its a given considering there is little to evaluate Osgood's performance at this point of the season. The problem is we have a goaltender that we all acknowledge we need to get going, and instead of taking a dry spell to get both going, we are riding and overworking a single rookie tender because why? Because we ASSUME Osgood is that much worse? That's the issue here.

I'm not attempting to assume anything, that's why I'm saying Osgood is not doing what it takes to start, because he isn't starting. I'm thinking it has something to do with his attitude, practice, or another situation other than blind hate by a coach. Babcock is doing this for a reason, and I'm giving the coach the benefit of the doubt that it is a good one. It very well might be Babcock just hates Osgood, but without facts that I can see I'm not going to believe that. I'm Red Wing fan, not a player fan. I realize Osgood will need to be the goaltender in the playoffs, but that shouldn't mean we can't give Jimmy Howard a stretch of games to progress, especially when he has done nothing wrong.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Babcock's thoughts on starting Jimmy again:

Babcock said goaltender Jimmy Howard will make his seventh consecutive start Thursday. Chris Osgood hasn't played since a 3-0 loss in Chicago on Dec. 20.

"Ozzie's practiced real well the last little while," Babcock said. "I just think Howie played good in Anaheim (4-1 loss Tuesday). The bottom line, you're saying to yourself, 'We need to win tomorrow's game. What gives you the best opportunity to win?'

"That doesn't mean I'm right, but that's what we perceive as a coaching staff. And yet, Ozzie needs to play some games, but that individual part is after the team."

Said Osgood: "Practice hard, that's it. That's all you do. It's pretty cut and dry."

I find it a little hard to believe he thinks Jimmy played well against the Ducks. Either that shows just how deep in the doghouse Ozzy is with Babcock, or he doesn't want to come out criticizing his rookie goaltender.

Either way, let's hope the Wings get out to a better start and Howard controls his rebounds better. Even the Ducks announcers were pointing out how he needs to get his stick on some of those low shots so the rebound goes airborne and doesn't just bounce off his pads flat along the ice.

EDIT: Linky

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...n_cleary_t.html

Edited January 7, 2010 by haroldsnepsts

[b.shanafan14 733]

I'm not attempting to assume anything, that's why I'm saying Osgood is not doing what it takes to start, because he isn't starting. I'm thinking it has something to do with his attitude, practice, or another situation other than blind hate by a coach. Babcock is doing this for a reason, and I'm giving the coach the benefit of the doubt that it is a good one. It very well might be Babcock just hates Osgood, but without facts that I can see I'm not going to believe that. I'm Red Wing fan, not a player fan. I realize Osgood will need to be the goaltender in the playoffs, but that shouldn't mean we can't give Jimmy Howard a stretch of games to progress, especially when he has done nothing wrong.

I agree with your point of view then, I too consider myself a Red Wings fan before any player. None of my arguments are in anyway meant to take away from Howard's awesome season, but I honestly don't see how it benefits the team to ice Osgood the way they are this season. Also, despite how well Howard has played, he has had a few poor outing when it would appear a perfect opportunity to start working Osgood into some games, the Ducks game the other night being one of them. I can also see why getting some offensive players back like the Wings are looking to tonight would be a good opportunity to maximize all areas, including not starting what is now a cold goaltender in Osgood.

My problem is with how they have treated the goaltending situation to this point. I can't help but feel that Osgood deserves a much better shake and that the Wings are painting themselves into a corner by riding Howard for long stretches the way they are. Every consecutive game Howard starts he has to be feeling the pressure and his game seems to be cooling down. In much the same way, every game the Osgood is forced to watch and allowed to do nothing, his confidence is taking a severe hit, and there is no more important trait to the play of any hockey player than confidence, goaltending especially. I'm thinking about what is best for the team, and I'm no expert, but I think its every fan and player's right to question the coach. Hell, about 2-4 coaches a season lose their jobs in the league. Not saying Babcock is one of those by a long shot, just saying that a coach is not infallible.

[Outsider 42]

Because Osgood is not doing what he needs to do to get in games, and Jimmy is.

Howard didn't "do what he needed to do" against Anaheim, either. Guess what? He's getting another shot at it tonight in Los Angeles.

Howard didn't "do what he needed to do" against Columbus on the 28th. Or against Chicago on the 23rd. Or against Dallas on the 19th. Or against Edmonton on the 3rd.

The difference has been that when Howard hasn't "done what he needs to", he's gotten the all important opportunity to get right back in there and try again.

Osgood hasn't had that opportunity since November 7th. That's the last time Osgood played consecutive Games. That was TWO MONTHS AGO.

Your comparison doesn't hold water. Sorry. This is about more than playing the hot hand.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Babcock's thoughts on starting Jimmy again:

I find it a little hard to believe he thinks Jimmy played well against the Ducks. Either that shows just how deep in the doghouse Ozzy is with Babcock, or he doesn't want to come out criticizing his rookie goaltender.

Either way, let's hope the Wings get out to a better start and Howard controls his rebounds better. Even the Ducks announcers were pointing out how he needs to get his stick on some of those low shots so the rebound goes airborne and doesn't just bounce off his pads flat along the ice.

EDIT: Linky

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...n_cleary_t.html

Thanks for the link, haroldsnepsts. These are the kind of things that make me honestly question the validity of Howard starting 7-8 games in row purely on "do-right" and Osgood sitting because he hasn't earned it.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Howard didn't "do what he needed to do" against Anaheim, either. Guess what? He's getting another shot at it tonight in Los Angeles.

Howard didn't "do what he needed to do" against Columbus on the 28th. Or against Chicago on the 23rd. Or against Dallas on the 19th. Or against Edmonton on the 3rd.

The difference has been that when Howard hasn't "done what he needs to", he's gotten the all important opportunity to get right back in there and try again.

Osgood hasn't had that opportunity since November 7th. That's the last time Osgood played consecutive Games. That was TWO MONTHS AGO.

Your comparison doesn't hold water. Sorry. This is about more than playing the hot hand.

The Wings have lost 5 of 6 with Osgood in net since November 7th. They have lost 8 of 21 with Howard in net since that time. I don't see how the argument doesn't hold water. Also, you mention Howard not doing what he needed to do against Anaheim or Columbus or Chicago or Dallas or Edmonton. Every loss that the Wings have had when Howard has played (outside of the game against Dallas on the 19th) dating all the way back to the beginning of November, the Wings have scored one or fewer goals. Its tough to win a game when you score 1 or less goals.

[Outsider 42]

Babcock's thoughts on starting Jimmy again:

Babcock said goaltender Jimmy Howard will make his seventh consecutive start Thursday. Chris Osgood hasn't played since a 3-0 loss in Chicago on Dec. 20.

"Ozzie's practiced real well the last little while," Babcock said. "I just think Howie played good in Anaheim (4-1 loss Tuesday). The bottom line, you're saying to yourself, 'We need to win tomorrow's game. What gives you the best opportunity to win?'

"That doesn't mean I'm right, but that's what we perceive as a coaching staff. And yet, Ozzie needs to play some games, but that individual part is after the team."

Said Osgood: "Practice hard, that's it. That's all you do. It's pretty cut and dry."

I find it a little hard to believe he thinks Jimmy played well against the Ducks. Either that shows just how deep in the doghouse Ozzy is with Babcock, or he doesn't want to come out criticizing his rookie goaltender.

Either way, let's hope the Wings get out to a better start and Howard controls his rebounds better. Even the Ducks announcers were pointing out how he needs to get his stick on some of those low shots so the rebound goes airborne and doesn't just bounce off his pads flat along the ice.

EDIT: Linky

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...n_cleary_t.html

Ditto. To all of the above.