Blackhawks vs The Blues

[Miller Brew 0]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/hockeynight/20...3cDKLXy0qt7vLYF

currently dominating the ducks

fun to see

I clicked the link and saw Ducks score 2 goals on 2 shots in less than 1 minute apart. I'm assuming Huet is net?

Edit: Nevermind. Nemo(sp?) was in net.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Miller Brew

[Guest Lidstromboli]

the ducks 1st goal was pretty good and then some the puck got a weird bounce on Niemi for the second, was pretty soft. he was great for the majority of the game though.

[blues_demitra38 11]

I was calling Backes out for his career of spotpicking so far in the NHL. The visor thing is an attack on him usually fighting with a visor on, even though in this fight both guys wore it.

There's nothing debatable about him picking spots. He loves jumping guys like Toews, but is timid to fight better fighters. He's quickly developing a reputation around fight fans as being a big *****, and he needs to shed it by manning up with some tough guys instead of fighting Toews or trying to pick fights with Draper of all people.

Backes is a 30 goal caliber player. He is a true power forward in every sense of the term. You want him to drop the gloves with some scrub enforcer? Doesn't work like that buddy. See the 2004 Stanley Cup Finals featuring Iginla v. Lecavalier for further references.

[Miller Brew 0]

Backes is a 30 goal caliber player. He is a true power forward in every sense of the term. You want him to drop the gloves with some scrub enforcer? Doesn't work like that buddy. See the 2004 Stanley Cup Finals featuring Iginla v. Lecavalier for further references.

You have to understand that a lot member here at LGW's think a 'true' or 'great' hockey player is someone who can kick the s*** out of anyone, while goal scoring or playing solid defense is a far second. Personally, I tend to stay away from the 'enforcer' or 'fighting' threads as they are never ending until mods lock or delete them. I don't really understand the mentality, but that's what it is here at LGWs.

I think if some LGWs members here were the GM of the Wings, they'd trade away the entire roster for fighters/enforcers like Brad May's and Aaron Downey's type players. Wings wouldn't score any goals, Wings won't stop the puck from going in and the games might end 26-0.. but they'd be happy because they seen 12 fights per game...

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

You have to understand that a lot member here at LGW's think a 'true' or 'great' hockey player is someone who can kick the s*** out of anyone, while goal scoring or playing solid defense is a far second. Personally, I tend to stay away from the 'enforcer' or 'fighting' threads as they are never ending until mods lock or delete them. I don't really understand the mentality, but that's what it is here at LGWs.

I think if some LGWs members here were the GM of the Wings, they'd trade away the entire roster for fighters/enforcers like Brad May's and Aaron Downey's type players. Wings wouldn't score any goals, Wings won't stop the puck from going in and the games might end 26-0.. but they'd be happy because they seen 12 fights per game...

That has nothing to do with it.

I don't hate Backes because he isn't an enforcer. I hate him because he starts fights with non-fighters and is afraid to fight tougher guys. Hence a spotpicker. He should just stop fighting permanently, or man up with real fighters for a change.

One of the many s***bags in the NHL hiding behind the instigator rule.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

He did beat him up, but the big puss was wearing a visor the whole fight against a non-fighter no less.

I don't mind seeing Toews get beat, but I hate Backes more, especially with these cheap tactics.

I have to totally disagree with you on this one. This fight doesn't even happen if Toews continues to do what he does, which is go play hockey. They traded whacks and Toews kept skating towards Backes. Give Toews props for manning up but you have to look at the fight with some objectivity.

Toews wanted it and he went after it. Oh, and the video clearly shows Toews dropping his gloves first.

I'm not a proponent of fighting with a visor. But your statement about his "tactics" is without merit in this case.

Toews wanted the fight. Toews dropped gloves first. Toews wears a visor as well.

I'm a proponent of the code. But if somebody drops their gloves and starts going at you, you don't have to wait for them to tag you in the face before you lose the helmet.

If Backes had dropped them first and went for Toews it might be a different story but they didn't step back and let each other square up. It was a spur of the moment fight and Toews was first to lose the gloves.

No fault on Backes part for not taking off his helmet in this instance.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I have to totally disagree with you on this one. This fight doesn't even happen if Toews continues to do what he does, which is go play hockey. They traded whacks and Toews kept skating towards Backes. Give Toews props for manning up but you have to look at the fight with some objectivity.

Toews wanted it and he went after it. Oh, and the video clearly shows Toews dropping his gloves first.

I'm not a proponent of fighting with a visor. But your statement about his "tactics" is without merit in this case.

Toews wanted the fight. Toews dropped gloves first. Toews wears a visor as well.

I'm a proponent of the code. But if somebody drops their gloves and starts going at you, you don't have to wait for them to tag you in the face before you lose the helmet.

If Backes had dropped them first and went for Toews it might be a different story but they didn't step back and let each other square up. It was a spur of the moment fight and Toews was first to lose the gloves.

No fault on Backes part for not taking off his helmet in this instance.

My hatred for Backes goes beyond this fight.

It's not a coincidence that he usually fights against these non-fighters. To me, he's a player who would be killed if the NHL didn't have the instigator rule.

I've already said that they both wore visors in this fight, but my complaint was that Backes always fights with a visor.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I was calling Backes out for his career of spotpicking so far in the NHL. The visor thing is an attack on him usually fighting with a visor on, even though in this fight both guys wore it.

There's nothing debatable about him picking spots. He loves jumping guys like Toews, but is timid to fight better fighters. He's quickly developing a reputation around fight fans as being a big *****, and he needs to shed it by manning up with some tough guys instead of fighting Toews or trying to pick fights with Draper of all people.

Well there's a difference between fight fans and educated fight fans. My guess is its the uneducated ones that think he's a ***** and spot picker.

One need only know what they are talking about when it comes to the topic or simply do some research. I've long been a fan of Backes because of his size, skill set and that he's a good old USA boy.

Here's all of his NHL fight history

Ed Jovonovski

Robyn Regehr

Adam Burrish

Ryan Hollweg

All 4 of which could be argued to be better, more experienced fighters than Backes. In 3 of these fights the opponent was swinging and there was no square up so nobody took off their helmets prior to the fight. I don't have video of the Jovo fight but we all know he can go.

Lesser guys

Keith Ballard: Capable but a smaller guy. Good fighter though. They actually both took swings and Backes removed his helmet first even though they were already fighting.

Fedor Tyutin: Jumped Backes after he laid out a Blue Jacket

Lady Smid: Capable guy who has shown he will fight and is in Backes weight class. They both wear visors and squared up and took off the helmets.

Cam Barker: Not much of a fighter but has done it and is capable. This fight happened in a big scrum after the whistle so unclear as to who instigated it or threw the first punch. Clearly there was no square up since it was a mass of humanity and they just ended up together in the middle of the pile.

Danny Richmond: Fiesty, minor leaguer. He actually came after Backes and was the first to drop a glove. There was a scrum and no square up.

Now we get to the so called non fighters he has fought

Toews: Already addressed. Toews came at Backes and dropped them first so you can't call that spot picking.

Nicklas HJarmalsson: There's no good video of this one so can't comment much.

Shawn Horcoff: These two were trading glove on jabs and face washes with a linseman in between them. Horcoff probably didn't think there'd be a fight even though he kept shoving back at Backes. Backes thought differently and continued, eventually dropping the gloves. This is about the only fight you could say he "spot picked". And that'd be very loose at that considering the other guy is shoving you back in the face.

Spot picker? Hardly. He's a big guy who throws big hits and those big hits have often been followed up by somebody coming after him. Or, there have been scrums where he gets paired off with another big guy b/c of his size and willingness.

I question the knowledge of anybody who says they are a fight fan and doesn't know these things.

Now, Lucic, there's a definite spot picker and a guy who for his size, power and raw fighting ability, he's a monster.....absolutely does not fight up. He has a tendency to fight down/spot pick. He doesn't fight scrubs typically but he does have a tendency to fight guys that are either

A: willing middle weights

B: lower end heavies

C: heavyweights in stature only

We don't call Lucic a heavy b/c he is too talented. But based on size, punching power and ability, he is a true heavy weight yet he tends to shy away from the legit heavies. You are more likely to see him fight somebody like BJ Crombeen than Wade Belak. And he practically runs away from Georges Laraque every chance he gets.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

My hatred for Backes goes beyond this fight.

It's not a coincidence that he usually fights against these non-fighters.

To me, he's a player who would be killed if the NHL didn't have the instigator rule.

I've already said that they both wore visors in this fight, but my complaint was that Backes always fights with a visor.

That's a false statement. The vast majority of players he's fought have more experience fighting than Backes does so calling them non fighters would be a misnomer.

2nd: He's big and very strong and shows no signs that he would "get killed". If you mean the Boogaards and Shelley's of the world would kill him if there were no instigator then I suppose you have a point. However, same could be said for 99% of NHLers. And conversely, if guys like Shelley and Ivanans and Boogey were going after guys like Backes, big guys who can fight but aren't heavyweights (a la Komisarek) then I would be calling those heavies out for fighting down. I can't remember which enforcer said it years ago but he said "you shouldn't fight guys you know you can beat up".

3rd: I addressed this in my last post. Backes gets jumped a lot because of his hits. To blindly follow the logic of fighting with a visor without taking any context into account is a fallacy.

I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I've been a fight fan as long as I could throw a punch. I know what i'm talking about and I've followed Backes b/c I love his potential and that he's a USA born player. There's little to no evidence that he's a spot picker who fights non fighters. There's also evidence that given the chance to take off his visor and square up that he will do so.

About the only thing that can be said of him fighting with a visor is that more often than not, his opponent is also wearing one or the fight has started with no square up and no opportunity to shed the helmets. Most of these fights weren't even instigated by Backes.

Just sayin

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't see the difference between Backes and Lucic, except that Lucic is more overrated as a fighter amongst Bruin fans who think he's a great enforcer of some kind.

Also, you were too generous to him. Jovanovski was the only fighter he's fought who could be considered a really good fighter. The others are punching bags more or less, or non-fighters. I mean have you ever seen Ryan Hollweg actually win a fight? And Robyn Regehr never really drops the gloves

He jumped Horcoff, Hjalmarrson, Brad Stuart, Dominic Moore and I remember he tried to challenge Draper to a fight a few years ago. Yet you say that there's little to no evidence of him wanting to fight non-fighters. Non-fighters comprise half of his fight card.

He's just a wannabee tough guy punk, and I don't know how you can say anything good about him in the fighting department. The fact that he's a good player and a "USA boy" is hardly relevant to the discussion. That's not anything I was refuting.

I realize that you like the guy, but to me he's a wannabee fighter more than a real fighter. Of course he could beat up guys like Maltby or Ruutu, or Sean Horcoff, but I don't see him ever wanting a piece of anyone better.

He's lucky the Blues have so many tough guys better than him, or else he'd be paired up with tougher players himself.

Edited January 4, 2010 by GMRwings1983

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I don't see the difference between Backes and Lucic, except that Lucic is more overrated as a fighter amongst Bruin fans who think he's a great enforcer of some kind.

Also, you were too generous to him. Jovanovski was the only fighter he's fought who could be considered a good fighter. The others are punching bags more or less, or non-fighters.

He jumped Horcoff, Hjalmarrson, Brad Stuart, Dominic Moore and I remember he tried to challenge Draper to a fight a few years ago.

He's just a wannabee tough guy punk, and I don't know how you can say anything good about him in the fighting department.

The fact that he's a good player and a "USA boy" is hardly relevant to the discussion. That's not anything I was refuting.

Well, the only conclusion I can come to is that you are overrating Backes. Backes is no more willing a combatant than guys like Ballard and Smid. Watch Smid play. He has no problem fighting. He's no different than Backes.

Burrish is a punching bag? He's a far more voracious and willing fighter than Backes. Robyn Regehr is a punching bag? Are you serious? Robyn Regehr doesn't fight much but he is a very solid, capable fighter. I suggest you watch clips of some of his fights.

Ryan Hollweg is a punching bag? Again, he's much like Burrish, a guy with good size and little talent who runs around trying to hurt people and is far more willing to fight.

So basically you are docking respect points from Backes for fighting guys like Burrish and Hollweg? Who are talentless hacks who instigate trouble and look for fights? If you don't see the absurdity of that position I can't convince you.

You are so off the rocker on Regehr you need to take a second look. He's a great fighter for his talent level. He's a better version of Komisarek in all departments.

And you're also docking respect points from Backes for 2 fights (Horcoff, who you are stretching the truth worse than OJ Simpson to say he "jumped him") and HJarmalsson (prove it....I have seen no video to come to a decisive conclusion on this).

And you're getting on him for PICKING ON Draper, Stuart and Moore? Seriously? I thought this was a debate about who he's fought. Not who he has tried to fight. Do you honestly think Backes is the only player who has tried to intimidate guys who aren't as tough as him? You have watched the sport of hockey, yes?

Look, I have no beef with you but the evidence is out there. You can ignore it all you want with your predetermined biases. You're just wrong and don't really know what you're talking about. That's not my problem, it's your life. No biggie to me.

Later skaters.

[blues_demitra38 11]

Well there's a difference between fight fans and educated fight fans. My guess is its the uneducated ones that think he's a ***** and spot picker.

One need only know what they are talking about when it comes to the topic or simply do some research. I've long been a fan of Backes because of his size, skill set and that he's a good old USA boy.

Here's all of his NHL fight history

Ed Jovonovski

Robyn Regehr

Adam Burrish

Ryan Hollweg

All 4 of which could be argued to be better, more experienced fighters than Backes. In 3 of these fights the opponent was swinging and there was no square up so nobody took off their helmets prior to the fight. I don't have video of the Jovo fight but we all know he can go.

Lesser guys

Keith Ballard: Capable but a smaller guy. Good fighter though. They actually both took swings and Backes removed his helmet first even though they were already fighting.

Fedor Tyutin: Jumped Backes after he laid out a Blue Jacket

Lady Smid: Capable guy who has shown he will fight and is in Backes weight class. They both wear visors and squared up and took off the helmets.

Cam Barker: Not much of a fighter but has done it and is capable. This fight happened in a big scrum after the whistle so unclear as to who instigated it or threw the first punch. Clearly there was no square up since it was a mass of humanity and they just ended up together in the middle of the pile.

Danny Richmond: Fiesty, minor leaguer. He actually came after Backes and was the first to drop a glove. There was a scrum and no square up.

Now we get to the so called non fighters he has fought

Toews: Already addressed. Toews came at Backes and dropped them first so you can't call that spot picking.

Nicklas HJarmalsson: There's no good video of this one so can't comment much.

Shawn Horcoff: These two were trading glove on jabs and face washes with a linseman in between them. Horcoff probably didn't think there'd be a fight even though he kept shoving back at Backes. Backes thought differently and continued, eventually dropping the gloves. This is about the only fight you could say he "spot picked". And that'd be very loose at that considering the other guy is shoving you back in the face.

Spot picker? Hardly. He's a big guy who throws big hits and those big hits have often been followed up by somebody coming after him. Or, there have been scrums where he gets paired off with another big guy b/c of his size and willingness.

I question the knowledge of anybody who says they are a fight fan and doesn't know these things.

Now, Lucic, there's a definite spot picker and a guy who for his size, power and raw fighting ability, he's a monster.....absolutely does not fight up. He has a tendency to fight down/spot pick. He doesn't fight scrubs typically but he does have a tendency to fight guys that are either

A: willing middle weights

B: lower end heavies

C: heavyweights in stature only

We don't call Lucic a heavy b/c he is too talented. But based on size, punching power and ability, he is a true heavy weight yet he tends to shy away from the legit heavies. You are more likely to see him fight somebody like BJ Crombeen than Wade Belak. And he practically runs away from Georges Laraque every chance he gets.

For the win.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Well, the only conclusion I can come to is that you are overrating Backes. Backes is no more willing a combatant than guys like Ballard and Smid. Watch Smid play. He has no problem fighting. He's no different than Backes.

Burrish is a punching bag? He's a far more voracious and willing fighter than Backes. Robyn Regehr is a punching bag? Are you serious? Robyn Regehr doesn't fight much but he is a very solid, capable fighter. I suggest you watch clips of some of his fights.

Ryan Hollweg is a punching bag? Again, he's much like Burrish, a guy with good size and little talent who runs around trying to hurt people and is far more willing to fight.

So basically you are docking respect points from Backes for fighting guys like Burrish and Hollweg? Who are talentless hacks who instigate trouble and look for fights? If you don't see the absurdity of that position I can't convince you.

You are so off the rocker on Regehr you need to take a second look. He's a great fighter for his talent level. He's a better version of Komisarek in all departments.

And you're also docking respect points from Backes for 2 fights (Horcoff, who you are stretching the truth worse than OJ Simpson to say he "jumped him") and HJarmalsson (prove it....I have seen no video to come to a decisive conclusion on this).

And you're getting on him for PICKING ON Draper, Stuart and Moore? Seriously? I thought this was a debate about who he's fought. Not who he has tried to fight. Do you honestly think Backes is the only player who has tried to intimidate guys who aren't as tough as him? You have watched the sport of hockey, yes?

Look, I have no beef with you but the evidence is out there. You can ignore it all you want with your predetermined biases. You're just wrong and don't really know what you're talking about. That's not my problem, it's your life. No biggie to me.

Later skaters.

That makes me a citizen of the universe.

As for this topic (which has taken many turns) you're wrong on a few points yourself.

Ryan Hollweg has only won a few fights in his career, even though he's fought around 40 fights in the NHL. Don't believe me, watch footage of his fights, and then tell me how many you think he's won. If it's any more than 5, I'll eat my hat.

Burish is another guy with a s***ty win/loss fight record. I don't know what more he has to do not to be a punching bag. He rarely wins any of his fights, although I'll give him credit for being willing (much like Steve Webb).

I never said Regehr is a punching bag, I just referred to him as one of those non-fighters. He's good for only a few fights per season.

I have no problem with Backes beating up on Hollweg and Burish, but I do have a problem with him fighting some of these weaker guys, and refusing to challenge better fighters. When Backes shows as much willingness to fight heavies or light-heavies, as he does guys like Toews and Horcoff, then I'll change my mind on him.

Until then, I'm going to continue viewing him as a wannabee tough guy loudmouth.

Edited January 4, 2010 by GMRwings1983

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

That makes me a citizen of the universe.

As for this topic (which has taken many turns) you're wrong on a few points yourself.

Ryan Hollweg has only won a few fights in his career, even though he's fought around 40 fights in the NHL. Don't believe me, watch footage of his fights, and then tell me how many you think he's won. If it's any more than 5, I'll eat my hat.

Burish is another guy with a s***ty win/loss fight record. I don't know what more he has to do not to be a punching bag. He rarely wins any of his fights, although I'll give him credit for being willing (much like Steve Webb).

I never said Regehr is a punching bag, I just referred to him as one of those non-fighters. He's good for only a few fights per season.

I have no problem with Backes beating up on Hollweg and Burish, but I do have a problem with him fighting some of these weaker guys, and refusing to challenge better fighters. When Backes shows as much willingness to fight heavies or light-heavies, as he does guys like Toews and Horcoff, then I'll change my mind on him.

Until then, I'm going to continue viewing him as a wannabee tough guy loudmouth.

Fair enough. I guess we just have different opinions on what kind of player Backes is. I think you're vastly overrating his toughness factor to be quite honest. He's a 20-30 goal power forward. I'm not sure he's supposed to be fighting light heavyweights, let alone heavyweights.

The point I was trying to make with Burrish and Hollweg wasn't to lay claims that those two are the second coming of Probie and Kocur. It was to show that Backes has no problem fighting guys who he really shouldn't be fighting. He's too valuable.

As for the comparisons of Lucic and Backes. IMHO, Backes would get his head handed to him on a platter by Lucic. Boston fans are obnoxious about him but when you get down to it, Lucic has all the elements of a great fighter except he won't take on heavies. Which kind of makes sense considering he's too valuable to be doing so.

If you don't see much difference between the two ask 100 fight fans to pick a winner in a hypothetical bout between the two. I guarantee that 85-90+% would pick Lucic.

Last thing here. I think you need to look at the type of player Backes is. You seem to have an image of him as something he's not. IMHO, he's a poor man's version of an Iginla. He reminds me a lot of a younger Keith Tkachuk. Not a super young Keith Tkachuk, but Tkachuk after he'd been around a while. Not nearly as tough as Shanahan or Owen Nolan. A step down from that. That being said, I think Backes is right about where he should be. He rarely gets involved with the extremes of the fighting spectrum (heavies & pipsqueaks), tending to fight guys that are a match for him talent level wise. ie the Regehrs, Barkers and Jovos of the NHL. If Backes can take Jovo off the ice, that's a win. If Burrish or Hollweg can take Backes off the ice, that's a loss for the Blues.

[FlintGangster 47]

The domination continued tonight as Marian Hossa scored his 3rd and 4th goals in 2 days.

Minnesota 1 Blackhawks 4

It's like watching Jordan's Bulls in the 90's. Nobody can touch them...right now.

[Miller Brew 0]

The domination continued tonight as Marian Hossa scored his 3rd and 4th goals in 2 days.

Minnesota 1 Blackhawks 4

It's like watching Jordan's Bulls in the 90's. Nobody can touch them...right now.

Blackhawks have been beating great teams like Minnesota and St. Louis Blues. They've got some big games coming up against the big bad Blue Jackets and the Wild again. So look out, they have a rough & grueling schedule ahead of them!

Oh, just checked, they play the almighty Oilers in a few weeks.

[Tommy_Like_Wingy 25]

Blackhawks have been beating great teams like Minnesota and St. Louis Blues. They've got some big games coming up against the big bad Blue Jackets and the Wild again. So look out, they have a rough & grueling schedule ahead of them!

Oh, just checked, they play the almighty Oilers in a few weeks.

Can't really make fun of other teams when we just got owned by the Ducks.

[FlintGangster 47]

Blackhawks have been beating great teams like Minnesota and St. Louis Blues. They've got some big games coming up against the big bad Blue Jackets and the Wild again. So look out, they have a rough & grueling schedule ahead of them!

Oh, just checked, they play the almighty Oilers in a few weeks.

The Hawks did put the brakes on the hottest team in the NHL, at the time, in the Nashville Predators as well as shutting out the Wings 3-0 twice in the span of a couple of days. Let us not forget about the beat downs they put on New Jersey among other teams...

The Hawks also DESTROYED the Ducks on Sunday.

Edited January 6, 2010 by FlintGangster

[Guest Blackhawkdown]

haha, Miller Brew ALWAYS has excuses for why the Hawks do what they do, its just his thing. He has a hard time giving credit where credit is due, and he lives in denial. You cant discuss hockey with someone like this, because they are such blind homers you cant have a decent conversation with them.

I dont even think Red Wing fans like him.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Blackhawkdown

[Miller Brew 0]

Can't really make fun of other teams when we just got owned by the Ducks.

That's cause the Red Wings are lazy and they suck. They can't even handle a little adversity.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The domination continued tonight as Marian Hossa scored his 3rd and 4th goals in 2 days.

Minnesota 1 Blackhawks 4

It's like watching Jordan's Bulls in the 90's. Nobody can touch them...right now.

Yeah that Hossa is a real stud when it comes to the regular seasons.

Besides, Jordan's Bulls never had to rely on someone like Cristobal Huet to be their most important player come playoff time.

[Carman 387]

Yeah that Hossa is a real stud when it comes to the regular seasons.

And he is a stud in the playoffs when he isn't battling an injury which required surgery and him missing 1/4 of a hockey season.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

And he is a stud in the playoffs when he isn't battling an injury which required surgery and him missing 1/4 of a hockey season.

Those are your excuses, not mine.

I for one think Hossa just wasn't up to the challenge and pressure of the moment. Hence, a playoff choker. And before you go there, yes Datsyuk choked also and has been a playoff choker many times throughout his career as well.

[Carman 387]

Those are your excuses, not mine.

I for one think Hossa just wasn't up to the challenge and pressure of the moment. Hence, a playoff choker. And before you go there, yes Datsyuk choked also and has been a playoff choker many times throughout his career as well.

Ok, so you don't buy injuries as an excuse of performance that's fine. Hope you hold every player up to that standard.

[esteef 2,679]

Speaking of the Blues, whatever happened to DJ KING?

esteef