Osgood v Babcock round 2

[clutchngrab 12]

I was not one of the bandwagon people cheering Legace along all year. I said all along that it was a terrible mistake and that we'd be sorry and in the end, we were.

Yup, give yourself a gold star. If a goalie plays well during the season, then it is not unreasonable to think said goalie can perform in the playoffs, This is what we call common sense. As it turns out, Legace was a head case and choked. Who knew? Need we say more about his career.

Having said that, if we think this is the norm, we do no justice to the likes of Dryden, Roy, Ward who have won the cup as "hot" goaltenders as rookies or near rookies. I won't even begin to cite the recent performances of young goalies in the playoffs.

As a matter of fact, this team feels alot more like a Mike's Anaheim team with a young Guguire, doesn't it?

Edited January 22, 2010 by clutchngrab

[clutchngrab 12]

Osgood slappies are desparate - pulling the Legace joker card.

[gcom007 1,465]

Osgood slappies are desparate - pulling the Legace joker card.

Ha!!!

Believe me, after 5 years of not being wrong, I have nothing to feel desperate about. I can't wait to see how this conversation goes down in June!

[clutchngrab 12]

At this point I'm wondering, outside of of complete Jimmy meltdown, how Osgood gets a sniff.

[gcom007 1,465]

Yup, give yourself a gold star. If a goalie plays well during the season, then it is not unreasonable to think said goalie can perform in the playoffs, This is what we call common sense. As it turns out, Legace was a head case and choked. Who knew? Need we say more about his career.

Having said that, if we think this is the norm, we do no justice to the likes of Dryden, Roy, Ward who have won the cup as "hot" goaltenders as rookies or near rookies. I won't even begin to cite the recent performances of young goalies in the playoffs.

As a matter of fact, this team feels alot more like a Mike's Anaheim team with a young Guguire, doesn't it?

You're doing a good job of demonstrating why people like you are always wrong.

Legace played well in October. He DID NOT play well down the stretch. Furthermore, Legace also proved how effective he was in the playoffs the previous year in which he was TERRIBLE.

CAREER BACKUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who knew?

People with a shred of common sense AND an understanding of the historical context of a situation.

I never said that it's impossible for Howard to succeed this year in the playoffs. But I'm not convinced yet either. I haven't seen it, and neither have you. We have no idea. So while you cite examples of some legendary goalies (and Cam Ward), I'm going to go with the "90% of the time" safe-bet and say it's probably not the best idea to pin your hopes on a rookie when you also have a guy with 3 Cup rings who just took the team to the Cup finals two years in a row.

June.

Edited January 22, 2010 by gcom007

[gcom007 1,465]

At this point I'm wondering, outside of of complete Jimmy meltdown, how Osgood gets a sniff.

And I'm still looking forward to June.

[clutchngrab 12]

I just think at some point the coaches and management go with what they see on the ice as opposed to reputation or past history. Sorry. That's what you do when you are not a fan and have to make your career. It's not about what you or I think.

[gcom007 1,465]

I just think at some point the coaches and management go with what they see on the ice as opposed to reputation or past history. Sorry. That's what you do when you are not a fan and have to make your career. It's not about what you or I think.

And that's likely when Ken Holland will step in again and fix the situation. Like last year. That's what GM's do when they see their coaches making stupid decisions.

[clutchngrab 12]

Babs may not "get" goaltenders. It seems to me he expects consistent performance from all positions. Even as an Osgood fan, you must acknowledge the difficult position he places the coach due to his inconsistent play.

[clutchngrab 12]

I suspect Holland will be hands off this year for a number of reasons.

1. The team (Devellano) has publicly lowered expectations

2. They need to groom a new goalie

3. Osgoods mouthiness

4. Jimmies performance (his numbers are very visible)

[gcom007 1,465]

Babs may not "get" goaltenders. It seems to me he expects consistent performance from all positions. Even as an Osgood fan, you must acknowledge the difficult position he places the coach due to his inconsistent play.

Last year, yes, absolutely. And Osgood is responsible for that, though I still do believe that Babcock's handling of the situation perpetuated the problem until Holland stepped in.

This year, I don't think that's the case at all. Osgood has not had a consistently bad stretch. He's had bad games but every goalie does, and he's bounced back well, as he's done throughout his career. He had quite a few personally great games early on as well that were spoiled by the teams utterly miserable play.

But he hasn't been given a chance to prove anything one way or the other since going down with the flu. Again, what can you honestly say about a guy's play when he's going so long between starts? It was bad when it was 1-2 weeks let alone a month. It's incredibly unfair of Babcock or anyone to suggest one game after a month on the bench is a "chance" or an "opportunity." That's completely ridiculous.

"This was an opportunity for (Osgood) and I thought we gave him real good support and Howie (Jimmy Howard) will start in Minneapolis (on Thursday)," Babcock said.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100120/SP...s#ixzz0dKZcQagg

Listen, again, I'm not trying to take anything away from how well Howard's playing, but the way Babcock's throwing Osgood under the bus over it all is absurd. This is absolutely bigger than what's happening on the ice. Even the press isn't mincing words on the matter any more, as it's been widely suggested that Babcock and Osgood don't get along. And considering Osgood is one of the most easy-going guys around, it's not hard to imagine where the issues started...

"We’ve all seen coach-player rivalries that have boiled over. Scott Mitchell wasn’t thrilled with Wayne Fontes and punctuated his dislike with a botched Halloween costume that made its way onto Channel 4. Paul Coffey and Scotty Bowman had such a contentious relationship that Scotty left Coffey off his ballot for the 50 best players in hockey history -- and had no problem making that fact public. And Ben Wallace had an issue with Rick Carlisle … and Larry Brown … and Flip Saunders.

That’s all context for what we have now with Osgood and Mike Babcock. To be fair, Babcock hasn’t publicly ripped Osgood. But he hasn’t had to. Starting Howard for 12 straight games and benching Osgood for almost a month pretty much said it. Osgood grumbled a bit about losing his edge by watching so many games. Then Tuesday, it went beyond that.

After Osgood had a so-so game in Washington, Babcock indicated that Howard would start Thursday in Minnesota because the Red Wings need points in their quest to get into the Western Conference playoffs. When he heard that, Osgood said, “I've gotten him a lot of points. I helped him to the finals twice and know how to win.""

http://www.freep.com/article/20100120/SPOR...-but-will-Wings

This boils down to pride for both of these men. Neither has handled the situation well, but Osgood should never have had to deal with it in the first place.

But hey, no big deal...we've got a rookie playing well in the regular season. So what if he's never played a playoff game?

I mean, Osgood's only been the best playoff goalie the last two years...

Who cares about 3 Cup rings???

[gcom007 1,465]

I suspect Holland will be hands off this year for a number of reasons.

1. The team (Devellano) has publicly lowered expectations

2. They need to groom a new goalie

3. Osgoods mouthiness

4. Jimmies performance (his numbers are very visible)

1. Irrelevant.

2. That's what the regular season is for when you're a rookie playing behind a champion veteran.

3. If Holland felt the same as Babcock, I don't think Osgood would be saying anything.

4. He's been great, but he's still a rookie.

Holland will be hands off if Osgood gets injured or if Babcock gets Osgood going and makes it clear that he's the starter down the stretch. Again, there's a huge divide between ANY rookie and the guy who's been the best playoff goalie the last two years en route to two Stanley Cup Finals appearances, a Cup and a Conn Smythe-worthy performance.

[BlueMonk 102]

I hate goaltenders. All of them. Just play the game without them. We'll see higher scores and no more of these brutal threads.

[Guest Howard He Do It?!]

I hate goaltenders. All of them. Just play the game without them. We'll see higher scores and no more of these brutal threads.

That would make Gary Bettman very happy.

[Opie 308]

Yes, that sounds about right.

Conveniently, 3/4 (probably more...) of this board has been wrong as well.

Like I said, I pitched a fit about Legace in October. I was never a member of the 3/4 who said he was ready.

I was one of the one's people like you ripped on for not agreeing with you.

And in the end, I was right. Just like every other year.

Did you ever stop to think that those of us who aren't so quick to celebrate career-backups, 43 year olds and rookies might actually be on to something???

Maybe you should read that last sentence again...considering 3/4 of you have been wrong every year while some of us keep getting it right every year.........

A) Like my stance on Ozzie/Howard I never picked Legace as a starter, I let the coach do that. Therefore I was not wrong, also I was not right.

B) My point is, 3/4 of this board will jump on the new Goalie 95% of the time, that doesn't mean the whole board thinks this way. That is my point, since about '08 3/4's of this board has been ready to label anybody new the next hot thing, look at the expectations for Leino this season!

C) The team needs points and regardless of whom you or I think is better the team skates harder and plays better in front of Howard. Babcock doesn't have the luxury of being in the lead for the President trophy this year, he needs to get them in to the post season, as of right now it is not looking good.

D) I don't rip people for not agreeing with me, I rip on them for making statements that are false, or that they do not back up. Outsider for instance and his people in the "KNOW" bulls***! And other peoples claims of being in the know, and instead of backing up their statement they do the classic discussion board out, "I am not doing the research for you, you don't believe me prove me wrong" yeah because proving a negative is so easy!

E) How do you know what this rookie will do? How did you know what Legace would do? Did you want Conk in last year? Look at the past two regular seasons Ozzie has had, not exactly spectacular, not exactly what most of the Ozzie haters here would make it out to be. But without a doubt below his "normal" numbers. Those are the facts.

95 -04 Ozzie had a sv% around .910 (the low being .903 the high being .917) every year except '02-03 when he split time in NYI and STL, Since coming back Ozzie has been inconsistent, .882 up to .910. Did you also know that besides last year Ozzie's highest ever GAA in DET was 2.86 (his rookie year, non-rookie year his highest was 2.69) last year he was 3.09

Did you also know that said rookie would be in the top 6 in GAA and SV%?

Regardless of what you think it is hard to look at Jimmy's numbers and just ignore them, he is right now playing like a top goaltender in this league! (before you jump all over that read it carefully, I said he is playing like one not that he is one).

Is Babs overplaying him, maybe, but right now he is not showing signs of being overplayed, maybe come March he will s*** the bed and Ozzie will no longer be an option, but a necessity.

But I will still give you that in June I want Ozzie in the pipes, there is no replacing experience in the pipes in the post season, none!

I am not blaming Ozzie for the goals against the caps, I am not saying Ozzie sucks, so before you spout off and "Rip" someone at least know what you are talking about. I have stated since these threads started that I am a huge J-Ho fan, but this team goes nowhere in the postseason without Ozzie.

Again something I have stated all along, how does Babs exactly handle this situation. Last year he had a large lead in the standing after the New Year, they were no where near 8th place. He could give Ozzie plenty of starts to help with whatever mental issues the team thought he had. As in preparedness not he is crazy.

Should he give points away?

For some reason, probably because he is a rook, the team just skates harder in front of Howard.

But with these two sentences:

And in the end, I was right. Just like every other year.

You completely made the post look like you are spoiled little brat of a child who cannot be in a adult debate. I could be wrong it has happened a lot in the past, but those lines make you look like it!

So like said before, pat yourself nice and hard right on you back, but you misread my post and went off on a completely wrong direction. So you are not always right try to bare that in mind.

Babs has three options right now:

1. Start Howard the rookie in the top 6 in SV% and GAA whom the team skates well in front of.

2. Start Ozzie whom is rusty (I admit Babs fault there) and the team does not skate well in front of. (defensively the team to me looks lapse when Ozzie is out there. Again not Ozzie's fault, I haven't blamed him for anything yet. Not even Backstroms goal can you believe that, well how can I possibly disagree with you then. HMM!)

OR

3. Throw up his hands and quit!

Which would you pick?

Edited January 22, 2010 by Opie

[Opie 308]

Not for nothing, but:

The same ones who were clamoring for Legace in 2005-2006, those who thought he was "ready", are the very same people who were clamoring for Conklin last year, because they thought HE was "ready". They're the same ones who are clamoring for Howard THIS year, because they're convinced that HE is "ready". And in every one of those scenarios, it was the same attitude: Get RID of Osgood. He's obviously not needed. Legace/Conklin/Howard is definitely better, and Osgood is "done". Waive/trade/demote him down to Grand Rapids. Let the new Osgoodless era in Detroit begin! Huzzah!

Also, oddly enough:

Those few who were shouting out from the rooftops against turning it all over to Legace, and to Conklin, those who were arguing that Osgood was FAR from done, and that the Wings would need him, and that he would prove all of the doubters and haters wrong.....again.....

Are the same few who are preaching patience and caution in handing it all over to Howard now, (prematurely), after a whopping THIRTYISH Games, while tossing the grizzled, Cup Winning veteran to the side like a pair of dirty socks.

Coincidence?

Not.

I am not getting involved with you and your know crowd, I have seen enough of your posts to know that you are an Ozzie slappy.

But for the record I want Ozzie to retire in a Red Wing uni, there is no better person to mentor Howard.

And also Howard is top 6 in GAA and SV% so how is it exactly he is not ready?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I am not getting involved with you and your know crowd, I have seen enough of your posts to know that you are an Ozzie slappy.

But for the record I want Ozzie to retire in a Red Wing uni, there is no better person to mentor Howard.

And also Howard is top 6 in GAA and SV% so how is it exactly he is not ready?

Legace was top 5 in GAA and top 10 in Sv% in 06.

[clutchngrab 12]

And I'm still looking forward to June.

I'm thinking more like May, but regardless - we'll just have to see. My money is on the Wings going with Howard - right or wrong.

[Opie 308]

Legace was top 5 in GAA and top 10 in Sv% in 06.

So that means he didn't deserve to play?

What in the hell was that post supposed to prove?

Did the Wings miss the post season in 06?

No they got ousted again in the first round, not like it was the first and only time a Wings team ranked in the top 3 didn't make it through the 1st round!

And Legace put those numbers up on a team coasting half of the year, Howard is doing it for a team ranked 9th for the better part of the year!

Again other than liking Ozzie there is no reason to play him over Howard right now, other than past accomplishments.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

So that means he didn't deserve to play?

What in the hell was that post supposed to prove?

Did the Wings miss the post season in 06?

No they got ousted again in the first round, not like it was the first and only time a Wings team ranked in the top 3 didn't make it through the 1st round!

And Legace put those numbers up on a team coasting half of the year, Howard is doing it for a team ranked 9th for the better part of the year!

Again other than liking Ozzie there is no reason to play him over Howard right now, other than past accomplishments.

It means exactly what I was pointing out. He put up great stats but wasn't ready for the post-season.

Howard's regular season stats do not magically make him ready for the post-season.

[Opie 308]

It means exactly what I was pointing out. He put up great stats but wasn't ready for the post-season.

Howard's regular season stats do not magically make him ready for the post-season.

I have claimed all along I want Ozzie in the post season, so I ask you again what was the point of your post?

I have always asked though, how does Babs getting the team going in front of Ozzie, how many games is ok to lose in regulation?

Right now regardless of whom is better the team is getting better results with Howard in net, Babs needs every point he can get.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I have claimed all along I want Ozzie in the post season, so I ask you again what was the point of your post?

I have always asked though, how does Babs getting the team going in front of Ozzie, how many games is ok to lose in regulation?

Right now regardless of whom is better the team is getting better results with Howard in net, Babs needs every point he can get.

Unless you didn't even understand what Outsider meant by "ready" then I am answering your point.

The same ones who were clamoring for Legace in 2005-2006, those who thought he was "ready", are the very same people who were clamoring for Conklin last year, because they thought HE was "ready".

You mention Howards stats and ask if he isn't ready. I then respond with Legace's stats and tell you he was not ready regardless of how well his stats looked in the regular season, whether they were by good play or the team around him.

This has nothing to do with points getting or anything in the regular season.

But since we are going back to the regular season bit (which has nothing to do with Outsider's original post you quoted), Babcock has been putting Howard in for more starts than Osgood because he has earned more starts, but Babcock is wearing down Howard too much when there are opportunities that he could have played Osgood (Carolina/Dallas) and rested Howard. Washington was a bad game to put in a cold goaltender, regardless of how well he played against them in October. Having Howard play both Dallas and Chicago (when he could have went Osgood/Howard) was also a bad move in my opinion.

Osgood's beef isn't about being regulated to backup. It's being put on the shelf until Howard is so tired that he just can't anymore. That is pointless. Especially since Osgood will need to be ready if the Wings make the playoffs and losing a point or two later on is the same as losing a point or two now.

Getting a few points up in the standings doesn't change the fact Detroit will need to keep a respectable record in March and April.

[gcom007 1,465]

Unless you didn't even understand what Outsider meant by "ready" then I am answering your point.

You mention Howards stats and ask if he isn't ready. I then respond with Legace's stats and tell you he was not ready regardless of how well his stats looked in the regular season, whether they were by good play or the team around him.

This has nothing to do with points getting or anything in the regular season.

But since we are going back to the regular season bit (which has nothing to do with Outsider's original post you quoted), Babcock has been putting Howard in for more starts than Osgood because he has earned more starts, but Babcock is wearing down Howard too much when there are opportunities that he could have played Osgood (Carolina/Dallas) and rested Howard. Washington was a bad game to put in a cold goaltender, regardless of how well he played against them in October. Having Howard play both Dallas and Chicago (when he could have went Osgood/Howard) was also a bad move in my opinion.

Osgood's beef isn't about being regulated to backup. It's being put on the shelf until Howard is so tired that he just can't anymore. That is pointless. Especially since Osgood will need to be ready if the Wings make the playoffs and losing a point or two later on is the same as losing a point or two now.

Getting a few points up in the standings doesn't change the fact Detroit will need to keep a respectable record in March and April.

I agree that Osgood needs more starts obviously and Howard more rests, and I agree that Howard's earning more starts than Osgood thus far. But to me, it has nothing to do with wins and losses. I don't think our goalies are making and breaking this team this year. It's scoring. Even Osgood's weaker games lately are influenced by rust, just as Howard's weaker games are influenced by lack of rest. If Osgood were to get going I think his numbers would go way up. I don't know if he'd touch Howard's brilliance at times so far, but his numbers would certainly improve with more games and more of an actual chance to get in a groove. And again, I think at that point, it boils down to a wash when wins-losses are concerned.

What concerns me more even than the physical issues of letting one get rusty and the other get worn out is the issues Babcock is creating with Osgood. I don't think they're healthy in the long run and I think they're completely avoidable. Again, I just don't put much stock in this "we need to win so we're starting Howard." More often than not, we win when we score more than a goal or two and lose when we score a goal or well, less...

But even looking at wins/losses, I think there are games that Osgood and Howard would have won if Osgood got more starts and Howard more rests. I think Osgood would've beat the Caps and I think Howard would've beat the Hawks if the rotation had even a hint of balance. So from my perspective, I think it's possible that we could have more points if things were more balanced.

In any event though, I see absolutely no reason for Babcock to be creating these issues. I think it's unnecessary and I will say outrightly that I think it is disrespectful to Osgood. I don't think there are any goalies in the league with credentials like Osgood's who would react better, and a whole lot more would react worse.

So again, I just don't see the point in going there. I don't think it's constructive in the long-run.

[gcom007 1,465]

A) Like my stance on Ozzie/Howard I never picked Legace as a starter, I let the coach do that. Therefore I was not wrong, also I was not right.

B) My point is, 3/4 of this board will jump on the new Goalie 95% of the time, that doesn't mean the whole board thinks this way. That is my point, since about '08 3/4's of this board has been ready to label anybody new the next hot thing, look at the expectations for Leino this season!

C) The team needs points and regardless of whom you or I think is better the team skates harder and plays better in front of Howard. Babcock doesn't have the luxury of being in the lead for the President trophy this year, he needs to get them in to the post season, as of right now it is not looking good.

D) I don't rip people for not agreeing with me, I rip on them for making statements that are false, or that they do not back up. Outsider for instance and his people in the "KNOW" bulls***! And other peoples claims of being in the know, and instead of backing up their statement they do the classic discussion board out, "I am not doing the research for you, you don't believe me prove me wrong" yeah because proving a negative is so easy!

E) How do you know what this rookie will do? How did you know what Legace would do? Did you want Conk in last year? Look at the past two regular seasons Ozzie has had, not exactly spectacular, not exactly what most of the Ozzie haters here would make it out to be. But without a doubt below his "normal" numbers. Those are the facts.

95 -04 Ozzie had a sv% around .910 (the low being .903 the high being .917) every year except '02-03 when he split time in NYI and STL, Since coming back Ozzie has been inconsistent, .882 up to .910. Did you also know that besides last year Ozzie's highest ever GAA in DET was 2.86 (his rookie year, non-rookie year his highest was 2.69) last year he was 3.09

Did you also know that said rookie would be in the top 6 in GAA and SV%?

Regardless of what you think it is hard to look at Jimmy's numbers and just ignore them, he is right now playing like a top goaltender in this league! (before you jump all over that read it carefully, I said he is playing like one not that he is one).

Is Babs overplaying him, maybe, but right now he is not showing signs of being overplayed, maybe come March he will s*** the bed and Ozzie will no longer be an option, but a necessity.

But I will still give you that in June I want Ozzie in the pipes, there is no replacing experience in the pipes in the post season, none!

I am not blaming Ozzie for the goals against the caps, I am not saying Ozzie sucks, so before you spout off and "Rip" someone at least know what you are talking about. I have stated since these threads started that I am a huge J-Ho fan, but this team goes nowhere in the postseason without Ozzie.

Again something I have stated all along, how does Babs exactly handle this situation. Last year he had a large lead in the standing after the New Year, they were no where near 8th place. He could give Ozzie plenty of starts to help with whatever mental issues the team thought he had. As in preparedness not he is crazy.

Should he give points away?

For some reason, probably because he is a rook, the team just skates harder in front of Howard.

But with these two sentences:

You completely made the post look like you are spoiled little brat of a child who cannot be in a adult debate. I could be wrong it has happened a lot in the past, but those lines make you look like it!

So like said before, pat yourself nice and hard right on you back, but you misread my post and went off on a completely wrong direction. So you are not always right try to bare that in mind.

Babs has three options right now:

1. Start Howard the rookie in the top 6 in SV% and GAA whom the team skates well in front of.

2. Start Ozzie whom is rusty (I admit Babs fault there) and the team does not skate well in front of. (defensively the team to me looks lapse when Ozzie is out there. Again not Ozzie's fault, I haven't blamed him for anything yet. Not even Backstroms goal can you believe that, well how can I possibly disagree with you then. HMM!)

OR

3. Throw up his hands and quit!

Which would you pick?

Then I truly apologize for lumping you in with that crowd. I won't pretend that I am not somewhat defensive about my opinion, but bear in mind, I think it's fair to say that I come in here and try to have civil, logical discussions with people. I make every effort to articulate myself and backup what I'm saying. I make every effort to not resort to name-calling of other posters and players. I try to keep it reasonable in conduct and in discussion. Every year, I discuss these things, and I tend to have a perspective that goes against the grain (that you described well...) and every year, I tend to get ridiculed for it far more often than not. And with no pretense intended, usually the points I'm trying to make end up being more accurate points when all is said and done. I could care less about being self-righteous and I'm not looking for admiration or anything. I'm just trying to explain why it's become intrinsic to be rather defensive as I attempt to discuss these things. And honestly, I'll work on it.

Again, I don't say anything out of a desire to prop myself up. I'm ultimately a huge Red Wings fan who tries to be respectful of the team and of history. I also try to be logical as well. I think we both can admit that such an attitude doesn't always get you real far here, right or wrong. I'm not saying it's right to get as defensive as I do, but I just want you to understand where I'm coming from.

[Opie 308]

No harm no foul.