Sammy's kicking our ***

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Of course we're one of the lowest scoring teams in the league-- our go to scorer has only 12 frigging goals. There's absolutely no excuse for Zetterberg to be scoring as rarely as he is.

[T.Low 1,011]

I don't think I did miss the point. If you'll look back at the specific post I was responding to it was about Sammy having more goals than Pav, Hank, and Nick. My point is that while an individual player's number of goals is important it is not always a full representation of the whole player. Sammy also had more goals than Nick last year and the year before but he clearly wasn't kicking Nick's *** as a player last year or especially the previous year when Nick won the Norris, as I don't think he is (again in the entirety of the player) this year. My point is that while Sammy is putting up quite a few goals the other players are still all around better players. The reason for listing other (and much better players) than Sammy who have fewer goals is to point out that Sammy is over producing (viewed through his previous years) and there is not much point in taking a guy who has 16 goals through 48 but only 19 in 81, 11 in 73, and 14 in 53 for the previous three seasons. I don't get the point or what comparison can be made from a guy on another team how is having a well above average year and comparing it to a player on another team which has been decimated with random injuries that have constantly changed the makeup of the team and has had a below average scoring year. I don't see what the comparison shows or proves and don't think that just looking at goals is an accurate representation anyway. Hence my list of non-Wings players who also have fewer goals than Sammy but are far superior players.

"My point is that while an individual player's number of goals is important it is not always a full representation of the whole player."

I agree with your point 100%. Its fine that you are taking this thread in that direction, just don't accuse me of stating the opposite, cause all I said was that as far as goals are concerned, Sammy is kicking our ass. At this point in time, that is a fact, it is irrefutable. And to me, it is an astonishing fact that tells how hard this season has been so far for us, and at the same time, I'm glad he is flourishing. Its one of those facts that makes you say "Holy f***, Logo Hunter!?! You gotta be kidding me!"

"I don't get the point " If you don't get it, then you don't get it. And thats ok. Not everybody gets it. But I do think thats what Gangsta meant when he said you are missing the point, because you are. How people can be missing the point is beyond me, but I'm ok with it.

With all due respect, let me break it down to its simplest form:

Regarding GOALS only, according to the data in the OP, Sammy is kicking our ass.

Edited January 21, 2010 by T.Low

[T.Low 1,011]

And if we win tomorrow night, we're tied for 6th. Oh s***!

We're not even close to out of the playoffs, so sit your ass down and quit your bitching.

Let me guess; You're a 13 yr old girl and you thought your 15 yr old boyfriend looked pretty tough when he said it to you last night, and now you thought you'd try it out for yourself. Well, good luck with that.

Thanks for reminding me why I rarely OP on LGW anymore.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Sammy is lazy and he sucks.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I agree.

These stats are a good example of why we should panic. I mean when Sammy is outscoring the entire Wings team, that's as good a reason to panic as any.

Hell has frozen over.

Maybe Cloutier is still working the practice games for the Canucks and these stats include goals in practice? Didn't the Zamboni driver get a hattie against Cloutier?

[Seraph 240]

This is what Sammy does to get a lengthy contract for at least a few years... then he unleashes his true passion for gracing every logo he sees with the smack of his wrist-shot puck. It's a devilish little ploy to eventually get at what he really wants. Look it up, I'm pretty sure he was leading our team in scoring too at first.

Edited January 21, 2010 by The Nephilim

[Rick Zombos Ghost 82]

Sammy and Lang for Datsyuk and Zetterberg. get it done Kenny.

[Frozen-Man 144]

The specific post never made a claim that he was better than them, simply that he was outproducing them, and then went to minorly mock LGW for not recognizing how much he would be missed.

NO ONE is arguing that Sammy is a better player than the ones you listed, only that comparitivly he has overachieved while ours are underachiving. You are arguing a point that no one is disagreeing with.

It'd be like if I got in an arguement about how the Hawks are doing better than the Wings this year and I counter that "The Wing's have a better history", and act as if the Hawks fans aren't admitting it, even if they were.

I guess that is where we have a disagreement on the issue. If Dats gets 85 points he is under producing and if Sammy gets 45 he is over producing. I don't get the point of the comparison. In any given year Dats will have to either overproduce, underproduce, or produce exactly what he should (the same with Sammy). The fact that Dats is below where he should be and Sammy is above where he should be has no common factor. What does Sammy's production have to do with the Red Wings at all. There is no evidence that if he were on the Wings this year he would still be over producing. Just pick any two random players in the NHL and you might have the same comparison, one is doing better than usual and one is doing worse. I glad Sammy is having a good year but fail to see a relevant comparison to any Wings player. The Wings have guys that are over producing too. Bertuzzi, Eaves, Miller, Helm all of these guys have come in and produced above expectations (not what some here hoped they might do but realistic expectations based upon their past few years).

That is why I stated Sammy also had more goals than other random players such as Vinny and Big Joe, what Sammy does has absolutely no bearing on either of those players performances and comparing the two is really just making isolated and random observations and then tying them together in a way that shows no real comparison. Sammy will have the type of year that he has regardless of what Dats does and Dats will have the year that he does regardless of the type of year Sammy has. Would Sammys goal scoring accomplishments be any less impressive if Dats scored 40 goals this year? No of course not, because the event stands on its own, entirely independant of Datsyuk's play. Likewise, will Dats 18 goals (if he stays on his current pace) be any more of a disappointment if Sammy scores 27 goals (his current pace) this season? No, Datsyuk's production is disappointing in its own right regardless of is Sammy scores 4 goals or 40. There is no need for a comparison because Sammy's impressive goal scoring stands on its own as does Dats lack of scoring.

"My point is that while an individual player's number of goals is important it is not always a full representation of the whole player."

I agree with your point 100%. Its fine that you are taking this thread in that direction, just don't accuse me of stating the opposite, cause all I said was that as far as goals are concerned, Sammy is kicking our ass. At this point in time, that is a fact, it is irrefutable. And to me, it is an astonishing fact that tells how hard this season has been so far for us, and at the same time, I'm glad he is flourishing. Its one of those facts that makes you say "Holy f***, Logo Hunter!?! You gotta be kidding me!"

I didn't intend to accuse you of stating the opposite, that was not my intention and if it came across as such I apologize. I agree that Sammy has been impressive and am glad he is doing so well. My point was just that goals don't always show that much especially when you are comparing him to Nick. Every year that Sammy was on the team he had more goals than Nick, yet Nick was always and continues to be the far superior player. Additionally, if you look at other stats such as assists and points they are both beating Sammy. Additionally, look at something like their short handed TOI/G, Hank has 1:24, Dats has 1:07 while Sammy only has 0:11. Hank and Pav are relied upon much more heavily to go out against the other teams top lines and be defensively sound than by its nature will lead to less offensive chances and scoring than a guy who is put out there for the primary purpose of scoring and as long as he isn't a major defensive liability he is filling his role. The role that Hank and Sammy are called on to play is very different than Sammy's. That was my point in stating that they are the better players, not because I thought you were saying that they weren't but because Sammy's job is to shoot the puck and score goals while Hank, Pav, and to an even greater degree Nick's job is much more complex.

"I don't get the point " If you don't get it, then you don't get it. And thats ok. Not everybody gets it. But I do think thats what Gangsta meant when he said you are missing the point, because you are. How people can be missing the point is beyond me, but I'm ok with it.

With all due respect, let me break it down to its simplest form:

Regarding GOALS only, according to the data in the OP, Sammy is kicking our ass.

I understand the statement, I don't disagree with the data, what I don't get its relevance or the logic behind the conclusion because the two events i.e. Sammy's overachieving and Dats underachieving are completely and totally unrelated and stand on their own. Dats, Hank, and Nick are not producing goals the way they should completely and totally regardless of Sammy's play (see my response above, their production would still be just as disappointing if Sammy had 0 goals). Here is my point broken down in its simplest form:

Hank is tied for 100th place in the NHL in goals, 99 guys are beating him, Sammy is no different than the other 98 players.

Dats is tied for 120th place in the NHL in goals, 119 guys are beating him, Sammy is no different than the other 118 players.

Nick is tied for 372nd place in the NHL in goals, 371 guys are beating him, Sammy is no different than the other 370 players (including Drew Miller and Ville Leino).

[T.Low 1,011]

I understand the statement, I don't disagree with the data, what I don't get its relevance or the logic behind the conclusion because the two events i.e. Sammy's overachieving and Dats underachieving are completely and totally unrelated and stand on their own. Dats, Hank, and Nick are not producing goals the way they should completely and totally regardless of Sammy's play (see my response above, their production would still be just as disappointing if Sammy had 0 goals). Here is my point broken down in its simplest form:

Hank is tied for 100th place in the NHL in goals, 99 guys are beating him, Sammy is no different than the other 98 players.

Dats is tied for 120th place in the NHL in goals, 119 guys are beating him, Sammy is no different than the other 118 players.

Nick is tied for 372nd place in the NHL in goals, 371 guys are beating him, Sammy is no different than the other 370 players (including Drew Miller and Ville Leino).

You disagree with the conclusion that when comparing goals scored, Sammy is kicking our ass? Well, ok.

It's the shear fact that absolutely nobody would have predicted that after the half way point in the season, Sammy would be ahead of Hank and Pavs in goals scored. Thats all. Not that it matters, not that it means anything in particular, it's just one of those things that make you say "Huh". Ya gotta admit, its a suprising stat, thats all.

And what makes Sammy different than those other 99 guys, is that he played with Hank and Pavs, was at a totally lower level than them, and got kicked around by the LGW fan base pretty badly. Thats why Sammy is singled out from all the other 99 etc. There was a relationship between them that does'nt exist with the rest of the 99 players. Now, in regards to goals scored, that relationship has been turned upside down, and its suprising to see. Simple as that, no more, no less.

Haven't you ever competed in something and suddenly noticed a dude ahead of you that is never ahead of you, and he's a bit of a flake or something and not nearly as good as you, but all the sudden there he is, ahead of you. That sudden realization makes you stop and think "WTF?!!"

Edited January 21, 2010 by T.Low

[Guest Shoreline]

Unless Sammy is playing dozens of games against the Wings, he is not kicking our ass. He found a better scoring tough and more prominent role with the Canucks than he had here. Simple as that. I don't get why some here exaggerate his success there to be some sort of in-your-face thing to the Wings or Wings fans. I don't get what's so hard about wishing the guy well and being happy for him, and why we have to have so many ex-girlfriends on a hating spree.

[T.Low 1,011]

Unless Sammy is playing dozens of games against the Wings, he is not kicking our ass. He found a better scoring tough and more prominent role with the Canucks than he had here. Simple as that. I don't get why some here exaggerate his success there to be some sort of in-your-face thing to the Wings or Wings fans. I don't get what's so hard about wishing the guy well and being happy for him, and why we have to have so many ex-girlfriends on a hating spree.

That wooshing sound was three pages of thread flying right over your head.

[Guest Shoreline]

That wooshing sound was three pages of thread flying right over your head.

Enlighten me.

[T.Low 1,011]

Enlighten me.

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62680

[Frozen-Man 144]

You disagree with the conclusion that when comparing goals scored, Sammy is kicking our ass? Well, ok.

I disagree that a conclusion can be made at all. There are numerous factors that can be considered. Hank and Dats have both missed games, when you compare Hanks GPG .29 with Sammy's .29 there is not much difference and both are getting beaten by Homer at .36. Vancouver as a team is scoring a lot more than the Wings. They are ranked #4 with 3.18 G/G and 156 total while the Wings are 28th with 2.49 G/G and 122 total. It makes it easier with the entire team is scoring lots of goals. Sammy is on a team that is playing really well and is scoring lots of goals, him included. Hank, Pav, and Nick are on a team that is struggling to score goals (largely due to injuries that have taken away a lot of threats and setups along with inconsistencies in lines) and are struggling. Additionally, I think that the lack of other requirements, especially defensive responsibilities, that Sammy has makes it much easier to score goals. If you put Sammy into the same roles that Dats, Z, and Nick are asked to play I think that his goal production would go down quite a bit (although I admit this is pure conjecture which is why as I initially stated I don't think a conclusion can be made).

It's the shear fact that absolutely nobody would have predicted that after the half way point in the season, Sammy would be ahead of Hank and Pavs in goals scored. Thats all. Not that it matters, not that it means anything in particular, it's just one of those things that make you say "Huh". Ya gotta admit, its a suprising stat, thats all.

I do admit that it is surprising, but it is kind of like Kyle Quincy. People were pissed (only well after the fact) that Kenny let him go because he did so well on the Kings. That was a completely different environment with a different role, responsibilities, and ice time. He flourished there but to compare his situation there to what his situation was here is not a fair comparison.

And what makes Sammy different than those other 99 guys, is that he played with Hank and Pavs, was at a totally lower level than them, and got kicked around by the LGW fan base pretty badly. Thats why Sammy is singled out from all the other 99 etc. There was a relationship between them that does'nt exist with the rest of the 99 players. Now, in regards to goals scored, that relationship has been turned upside down, and its suprising to see. Simple as that, no more, no less.

Haven't you ever competed in something and suddenly noticed a dude ahead of you that is never ahead of you, and he's a bit of a flake or something and not nearly as good as you, but all the sudden there he is, ahead of you. That sudden realization makes you stop and think "WTF?!!"

Yeah, I have and that is kind of my point anomalies happen. If it wasn't Sammy it would be someone else, i.e. Quincy, because NHL play, players, stats, and teams are not static things Sammy is ahead now but take a larger window in which you compare and it is not even close (and likely will not be in the future) even close.

Unless Sammy is playing dozens of games against the Wings, he is not kicking our ass. He found a better scoring tough and more prominent role with the Canucks than he had here. Simple as that. I don't get why some here exaggerate his success there to be some sort of in-your-face thing to the Wings or Wings fans. I don't get what's so hard about wishing the guy well and being happy for him, and why we have to have so many ex-girlfriends on a hating spree.

QFT

[T.Low 1,011]

Mikael Samuelsson 60 20 19 39

Pavel Datsyuk 58 16 31 47

Henrik Zetterberg 52 16 31 47

Nicklas Lidstrom 60 6 28 34

Todd Bertuzzi 60 15 18 33

Brian Rafalski 56 4 24 28

Dan Cleary 48 12 15 27

Tomas Holmstrom 46 15 9 24

...just sayin'. And there's currently six Canuckleheads with as many or more goals than our leading goal getter. Ouch.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I miss Sammy. His goal celebrations, facewashs and hiding behind referees were classic. I prefer Willy on the point over him, but still.

Plus:

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Mikael Samuelsson 60 20 19 39

Pavel Datsyuk 58 16 31 47

Henrik Zetterberg 52 16 31 47

Nicklas Lidstrom 60 6 28 34

Todd Bertuzzi 60 15 18 33

Brian Rafalski 56 4 24 28

Dan Cleary 48 12 15 27

Tomas Holmstrom 46 15 9 24

...just sayin'. And there's currently six Canuckleheads with as many or more goals than our leading goal getter. Ouch.

Definitely miss Samuelsson and would love to have him still around. I like the underdog that people get on illogically. He alone wouldn't be able to solve all the Wings problems this year though so far. Injuries have just been absurd.

[Dano33 41]

At this point, I couldn't care less about how our players stats compare with others. The only thing I care about is winning games and getting in the playoffs. The amount of goals Sammy scores shouldn't matter, because we can't do anything about it now.

[stuck in socal 56]

I miss Sammy. He would always be in people's doghouses but I guess not that he is gone everyone realized how he was a good contributor to the team.

[chrisdetroit 189]

He is still shooting at 11.2% compared to last year when it was 7.4%.

To give you and idea how bad that is it puts him a solid 131st in the league. No that's not a typo. One hundred and thirty first.

Out of 138 shots on goal, 20 went in.

You have to look beyond the headlines.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

And a goal tonight against the Wings to boot.

[Barrie 900]

He is still shooting at 11.2% compared to last year when it was 7.4%.

To give you and idea how bad that is it puts him a solid 131st in the league. No that's not a typo. One hundred and thirty first.

Out of 138 shots on goal, 20 went in.

You have to look beyond the headlines.

I think 20 goals is a typo, 7.4% of 138 is 10. 11.2% of 138 is 15.

20 of 138 is 14.5%, that's actually good.

[Duck Guy 86]

sammy does rock our socks off maybe thats the reason