Chris Osgood proves Jimmy Howard should be in goal for Red Wings

[mackel 767]

Osgood had plenty of odd man rushes that he was more than capable of stopping.

It is all about hindsight. Howard has helped Detroit in these last few games no better than Osgood has.

And that has nothing to do with the goaltending. Detroit is just collapsing and using the goaltending as a crutch. When they are paid as much as they are, you can't do that.

Osgood is washed up accept it, and move on. Last years playoffs were his last gasp.

[mackel 767]

That came off as more abrasive than I intended, I'm not trying to be an *******. The way I see it Howard is still only on pace for 55 starts if everything stays as is (doubtful), well within the limits of what you'd except a starting goaltender to handle. Even though this is his first season in the NHL he played several seasons in the AHL handling those kind of starts. Of course he's had a few bad nights but he's bounced back well, so to me the only thing I'm looking out for at this point is a Legace-style meltdown.

I can't really guess what Mike is thinking but if I were him I'd set up a new gameplan at the latest for post-Olympic break and infuse more Ozzie into the rotation to presumably get him ready for the playoffs.

Clearly you've not noticed that Babcock has no confidence in Osgood... Osgoof won't see the playoffs unless Howard completely meltsdown.

[Pucks 66]

lol

This may be the first time I've heard anyone directly blame the coach because the back-up goaltender looks like s***. Genius.

I know what your saying. I'm beginning to think some of the people on this forum are just saying these ridiculous things to have a secret laugh. They really can't be that damn stupid. I starting to wonder if this board is just full of little kids or something.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Pucks

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

people really still think ozzie is gonna start the playoffs?

Clearly you've not noticed that Babcock has no confidence in Osgood... Osgoof won't see the playoffs unless Howard completely meltsdown.

Poor choice of words maybe, but what I meant was pretty straightforward. I don't know who will be starting when the playoffs begin but they need both goalies to be ready, and after the Olympic break when most of the Wings players (but alas, not most of the Wings important players) have gotten a chance to rest up will be a good time to give Ozzie some more starts, see what happens and make sure everyone's good to go for the playoffs.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I know what your saying. I'm beginning to think some of the people on this forum are just saying these ridiculous things to have a secret laugh. They really can't be that damn stupid. I starting to wonder if this board is just full of little kids or something.

You should take a look in the mirror considering the choice of words you have made in these threads.

[Guest zackmorris]

Doc in another argument about goaltenders.

Why am I not at all shocked? Every conversation with him seems to be "common sense" vs "can I argue a losing cause and win?"

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Doc in another argument about goaltenders.

Why am I not at all shocked? Every conversation with him seems to be "common sense" vs "can I argue a losing cause and win?"

Is there something you'd like to bring to the discussion or would you like to throw around insults with no benefit to the topic at hand?

[Guest zackmorris]

I'm fine slinging insults, thanks. Can't say I'm wrong.

Edited January 31, 2010 by zackmorris

[Pucks 66]

You should take a look in the mirror considering the choice of words you have made in these threads.

So how old are you Doc? Just curious. How long have you been around the game, watching and or playing?

And for the record, the discussion has been long over in many threads. The fact that your the only one that doesn't understand that is what were all wondering, respectfully.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Pucks

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

So how old are you Doc? Just curious. How long have you been around the game, watching and or playing?

And for the record, the discussion has been long over in many threads. The fact that your the only one that doesn't understand that is what were all wondering, respectfully.

Understand what?

I'm curious as to what I don't know despite the fact others have agreed with me.

I'm fine slinging insults, thanks. Can't say I'm wrong.

Of course not, because you are unable to be a part of a civil discussion. Whether you are right or wrong is irrelevant.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[Guest zackmorris]

No I'm perfectly capable and can show you. You're biased as hell and put on a little show to pretend you're not. I don't like people like you.

That's all, carry on.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

No I'm perfectly capable and can show you. You're biased as hell and put on a little show to pretend you're not. I don't like people like you.

That's all, carry on.

Neither you or Pucks have shown anything to "discredit" me.

I have nothing against Howard. I think that he should get more games than Osgood because he is playing better.

But to you it seems that if I defend Osgood in any manner it means I'm a biased Osgood homer who thinks Howard is crap and shouldn't even be in the NHL, or something of that nature. I know it is easier to just list baseless assertions, but it doesn't help your case.

Go ahead and bash other posters for holding the same opinion.

[Guest zackmorris]

Dude. Other posters are fine, it's you I don't like. They have no delusions about what they are. I just dropped in to say that, now go talk to someone else. Go. Shoo.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Dude. Other posters are fine, it's you I don't like. They have no delusions about what they are. I just dropped in to say that, now go talk to someone else. Go. Shoo.

Once again, baseless assertions.

[Guest zackmorris]

Look at this guy, all serious. Maybe you should activate star power, Argue Hero.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Look at this guy, all serious. Maybe you should activate star power, Argue Hero.

Takes two to tango, mein freund.

This is about Osgood/Howard. If you have nothing else to say on that matter maybe you should concentrate on discussing things elsewhere.

Howard played great tonight and is the one proving that he should be in goal more often than not. Hopefully the team in front of him can play a full 60 minutes so that he doesn't need to carry them all on his back every game.

[gcom007 1,465]

What I find so entertaining is that this debate has been going on every year since Osgood's been back.

Osgood has been done, washed up, terrible, and he's killed thousands of baby kittens too, every year since he's been back.

Hell, it pretty much has gone like that one way or another somewhere in Detroit since 1994.

Every year there's a new "reason" with more "compelling evidence" to suggest why he's washed-up and done.

And you know, maybe he is done this year. It is bound to happen sometime.

But based on how things have gone the last four years, I still find it enormously funny that so many people are always so quick, and dare I say, so eager, to count him out.

[Guest zackmorris]

Well dude it's not like he's making a case to make everyone look wrong. He plays like absolute s***, and I'm not going to get into an argument with people trying to justify a save percentage below 900 and a goals against that looks like pi.

A few years ago, his naysayers were mostly blind fools. Nowadays, maybe those nay sayers are a whole different group of people, justified in their thinking. I don't believe the guy has it anymore and I'd love to be wrong about it but I just don't see anything from him that suggests he's got anything left. His lateral movement is the drizzling s***s, his save attempts consist of jutting out his chest and moving whatever arm the puck went (past tense) closest to and hoping it hits him. He can't react to a shot quickly enough anymore. He also looks shaky when he comes out to challenge an angle, like it's happening too fast for him. I played among those types my whole life, you can always start to notice when a goalie goes from expecting to save it, to hoping to. His style also is just killing him, like he's trying to make every movement way to fast, almost as if he's compensating for his dip in quickness. He goes into a butterfly far too fast, and for some reason always feels compelled to bounce back up as quickly as possible, even when he had to go down again. Even when he shouldn't have gotten up anyway. When you start thinking too much, and it's not reaction based/instinctual anymore, you're done.

It may sound crazy but just visually, stats and numbers aside, he looked better in the regular season last year than he does this year.

He isn't a guy who has ever gotten by on size, and instead used his quickness and instincts to survive. It looks like he ran the fumes to the finals last year and went completely empty in the offseason. He's 37, it had to happen eventually.

Edited January 31, 2010 by zackmorris

[gcom007 1,465]

Well dude it's not like he's making a case to make everyone look wrong. He plays like absolute s***, and I'm not going to get into an argument with people trying to justify a save percentage below 900 and a goals against that looks like pi.

A few years ago, his naysayers were mostly blind fools. Nowadays, maybe those nay sayers are a whole different group of people, justified in their thinking. I don't believe the guy has it anymore and I'd love to be wrong about it but I just don't see anything from him that suggests he's got anything left. His lateral movement is the drizzling s***s, his save attempts consist of jutting out his chest and moving whatever arm the puck went (past tense) closest to and hoping it hits him. He can't react to a shot quickly enough anymore. He also looks shaky when he comes out to challenge an angle, like it's happening too fast for him. I played among those types my whole life, you can always start to notice when a goalie goes from expecting to save it, to hoping to. His style also is just killing him, like he's trying to make every movement way to fast, almost as if he's compensating for his dip in quickness. He goes into a butterfly far too fast, and for some reason always feels compelled to bounce back up as quickly as possible, even when he had to go down again. Even when he shouldn't have gotten up anyway. When you start thinking too much, and it's not reaction based/instinctual anymore, you're done.

It may sound crazy but just visually, stats and numbers aside, he looked better in the regular season last year than he does this year.

He isn't a guy who has ever gotten by on size, and instead used his quickness and instincts to survive. It looks like he ran the fumes to the finals last year and went completely empty in the offseason. He's 37, it had to happen eventually.

I can see why you'd think that lately, but early on in the season, again, I say go watch some of those replays. Look up the GDT's. Look up the news articles. People noted again and again that while Osgood wasn't playing as lights out as he did in the playoffs, he was far and away better than last year and at times great. This whole "Osgood has looked terrible" thing crept in through December when he wasn't even really playing.

And again, I can see why you'd think he looks rough lately, but I really think a lot of it has to do with rust, though there's another thing and probably a bigger thing. I haven't brought it up much because I obviously don't know for certain, but I can't help but think that he's really frustrated and mentally out of it the way things have gone this season. He's never been one to vent to the press, even through the Bowman years. I think that really speaks to the level of frustration, and I don't think that's good for a goalies head.

And I do blame Babcock for fostering that.

How many Cup winning goalies who are top 10 in all-time NHL wins, coming off a Conn-Smythe worthy playoff performance do you think would appreciate reading in the media again and again that he's not starting because they need to win and Howard is the guy. And then hearing, "make the most of an opportunity," and getting one game every now and again, at one point going a month without a start. And whether you remember or not, Osgood knows he wasn't playing bad before he went down with the flu and Jimmy took over. (And again, I say, look it up if you don't recall.)

Babcock has basically thrown him under the bus, and Osgood has clearly been more frustrated by it than he ever has in his career. Now, none of this takes away with the blatant fact that Howard has played outstanding in that stretch, but I don't think Osgood is wrong for thinking he ought to get a few more starts here and there.

And for the record, while I assume this is the case, right or wrong, I don't think it's right that Osgood's let this stuff get to his head so much. I don't think Babcock's right for pushing the issue so far either though. But I think when you combine rust with frustration, (and possibly on top of that, the looming 400 win mark which can screw with guys heads) you aren't likely going to get an accurate picture of how capable or "done" Osgood is.

It's always been said that goalies are a strange bunch. Osgood's always been one of the more "normal" one's but I think this year has really tested his patience more than ever before. Perhaps Osgood is more of a "goalie" than we all thought, but that doesn't make him "done." At some point he needs to get some consistent starts, and not under the unnecessary pressure of "play lights out or sit on the bench." After all, he heard that early on after coming back from the flu, had a great game, and Howard started the next 6 or 7 games anyways.

He just needs to get some starts because he IS Chris Osgood, and even if there's a chance of him playing like the Chris Osgood of the last couple years in the playoffs, we need to get him ready. I was never a Hasek fan (before he came to Detroit and more so after, for personal "real-life" reasons not worth discussing) and thought Osgood outplayed him in 2008, but I said then too, if Hasek can be the Hasek of the past, you've got to get him ready and give him the chance. He's earned that.

Osgood, more than Hasek even in this city, has earned that chance as well.

[KonstantAdvisor 4]

His style also is just killing him...When you start thinking too much, and it's not reaction based/instinctual anymore, you're done.

He isn't a guy who has ever gotten by on size, and instead used his quickness and instincts to survive.

Reminds me of another Red Wing that most Detroit fans were not so easy to give up on. You have a pretty intricate critique, but the fact is that Osgood's performance was equal to Howard's until he was given a month off. Those are the facts and the present suggests a whole different set of rules apply.

Whoever is in net against SJ will get shelled if our defense decide to play goaltender and stick check instead of taking the body to the guys screening Howard and Osgood. Stuart got a goal tonight because Fleury was triple screened and nobody on Pittsburgh was willing to move Cleary, it looked like. To look at your post, you have been spending the past month not watching Osgood ride the bench while Howard soldiers on.

The people who are in the best shape when they are older get a better rhythm the more they play, just like young people. So yeah, I would still start Osgood against SJ, since Howard has two games in hand, and then put Howard back in against Anaheim, whatever critique you've got. That's about the pattern I think we would have followed in '96, if we didn't know the team was full of champions already and were trying to get the #1 seed rather than clawing for eighth place.

Nonetheless, I think your comments are disingenuous. If Osgood was winning, you wouldn't care how fast he gets up from the butterfly and you wouldn't be telling me you know whether he's acting on instinct or reaction-based. He's the guy with the Stanley Cup rings.

[Pucks 66]

Even if Osgood were to get a few more starts that you guys want. The only thing it's going to show is that Howard needs to play even more. That's the reality of the situation. We can't sore 4 goals per game for him, hell we can't even score 3 most of the time. Being a good team mate and helping Howard along is the only way he'll be able to stay a Red Wing. From reading his last interview, he seems to understand this. Maybe you should do the same.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Hasn't Howard faced like over 90 shots the last two games?

I'm afraid our defense will fatigue him to death if this keeps up. He needs some kind of break.

Next we play San jose, which is another awesome offensive team.

[Guest zackmorris]

I can see why you'd think that lately, but early on in the season, again, I say go watch some of those replays. Look up the GDT's. Look up the news articles. People noted again and again that while Osgood wasn't playing as lights out as he did in the playoffs, he was far and away better than last year and at times great. This whole "Osgood has looked terrible" thing crept in through December when he wasn't even really playing.

He had alright games to start out but the last few games mean more to me than those. I don't need to read GDTs or articles, I like to just use my eyes and I'm very good at it. Osgood looked better last year. Not by a ton, but still. This season he just looks absolutely lost whenever he's out there. I just don't buy the rust thing. According to him, he's been playing since he was a child. You should be able to take a few games off.

If rust was an issue, why did he play better early in the season according to you and a few others? Wouldn't the offseason be a killer?

Ozzie I don't think is a strong individual mentally. That's what I miss about Dom-he just didn't care what anyone thought, was confident in himself and had the guts to put up with any scenario Detroit hockey tossed at him.

What I think is happening, is Ozzie is losing it. He's 37 and towards the end of the playoffs last season he didn't look amazing. I think in the Pitt series he started having his faults shown a little more. The offseason I thikn probably sucked all the fumes he had left right out and dried him up.

He's frustrated but he's got to be more professional. I can only imagine how guilty Howard must feel sometimes. Imagine if you got drafted to play beside a 3 time Cup winner with triple digit wins, and played better and that goalie just complained. That's an awkward, unfair scenario to put the kid in. Babcock's a professional who made a business decision, and I can't see any logic supporting anyone saying it's the wrong one. We either conditioned Ozzie and sat in 12th place or we rode the hot goalie.

How many Cup winning goalies who are top 10 in all-time NHL wins, coming off a Conn-Smythe worthy playoff performance do you think would appreciate reading in the media again and again that he's not starting because they need to win and Howard is the guy.

Of course he doesn't appreciate it. Although he's far from the most misunderstood player around so he needs to act professional and shut the f*** up, that's all. I understand what he's going through but that doesn't make it ok.

And then hearing, "make the most of an opportunity," and getting one game every now and again, at one point going a month without a start. And whether you remember or not, Osgood knows he wasn't playing bad before he went down with the flu and Jimmy took over. (And again, I say, look it up if you don't recall.)

Stop telling me that, it's bulls***. He wasn't playing that good. He had maybe one small streak and a few decent games but if that's what we define as good, we've lowered the bar enough to stub a toe on it. Babcock is too stand up to throw anyone under the bus. He's just not a sugar-coater.

We needed wins and still do. This is insane, I can't believe people support him. What's more important? Making the playoffs? Or losing while conditioning your goalie?

And here's where some people are contradicting themselves-lately we've been saying it doesn't matter who starts because we're nto winning. I don't imagine he'd be playing better than Howard, so if we did condition him it'd be for naught right now, while the victories Howard earned us before, critical ones, would've been lost as well while we conditioned Ozzie.

And for the record, while I assume this is the case, right or wrong, I don't think it's right that Osgood's let this stuff get to his head so much. I don't think Babcock's right for pushing the issue so far either though. But I think when you combine rust with frustration, (and possibly on top of that, the looming 400 win mark which can screw with guys heads) you aren't likely going to get an accurate picture of how capable or "done" Osgood is.

Then maybe you're done when you can't handle this anymore.

Ozzie was just fine taking starts from Hasek when Babcock asked him to. Dom didn't complain, Dom congratulated him and befriended him and did what he had to do. He was confident and secure in himself and for good reason and he never became an issue.

It's pointless bringing up the Hasek/Ozzie 08 thing as Hasek will and should start over probably any goalie in history.

[KonstantAdvisor 4]

Even if Osgood were to get a few more starts that you guys want. The only thing it's going to show is that Howard needs to play even more. That's the reality of the situation.

You guys want? Everyone wants Howard to succeed and do well. I think everyone wants Howard to play the majority of starts the rest of this season, too. I think what most of us don't understand is the rampant, pointless bashing of Osgood.

Osgood played most of November through a lot of injuries for the Red Wings and actually did an okay job through that. He wasn't great against the Wild his last start, but you're pretty much precluding the fact that he can return to form now that the Red Wings are getting healthy. Everybody understands Osgood is closing in on retirement, but 23 playoff games less than 12 months ago says the reality of the situation now isn't what you're making it out to be.

We can't sore 4 goals per game for him, hell we can't even score 3 most of the time. Being a good team mate and helping Howard along is the only way he'll be able to stay a Red Wing. From reading his last interview, he seems to understand this. Maybe you should do the same.

You need to stop projecting on the team, because they have scored 9 goals in one night this season. It's not something they can't do. I have watched the Red Wings play, maybe you should too.

I'd be surprised if Howard wants to remain a Red Wing with fans like zackmorris. A good goalie can get paid to play anywhere, but you really have to be a glutton for punishment or making $X million (like Hasek and Cujo) to not get completely sick of those certain fans that always project excrement on the goalie when their favorite players aren't scoring. Sorry, I mean be "confident and secure in himself and for good reason" when you lose and the team in front of you is playing great.

Edited January 31, 2010 by KonstantAdvisor

[Guest zackmorris]

^Do your homework kiddo, I've defended the guy. Just now, he hasn't earned anything from me. If you think it's needless, you're as blind as a f***in bat.

Edited February 1, 2010 by zackmorris