mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Every one has been talking about potential forward lines, defence pairings and who should be starting in net. I'm probably guilty of that as well. But one thing I can't seem to find much information on is how the Wings cap situation will be affected with the return of Franzen (and potentialyl Lilja). Can anyone shed some light on how it works? What moves may have to be done? etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rage 24 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 I think they will be over 1 million the cap! Not sure though, I started a thread about this and nobody posted in it, so I guess nobody is really sure. I guess we just have to wait and see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sherwood40 16 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Pavel Datsyuk — $6,700,000 Henrik Zetterberg — $6,083,333 Johan Franzen — $3,954,545 Valtteri Filppula — $3,000,000 Daniel Cleary — $2,800,000 Tomas Holmstrom — $2,250,000 Kris Draper — $1,583,333 Jason Williams — $1,500,000 Todd Bertuzzi — $1,500,000 Kirk Maltby — $883,000 Darren Helm — $599,000 Patrick Eaves — $500,000 DEFENSEMEN Nicklas Lidstrom — $7,450,000 Brian Rafalski — $6,000,000 Brad Stuart — $3,750,000 Niklas Kronwall — $3,000,000 Andreas Lilja — $1,250,000 Jonathan Ericsson — $900,000 GOALTENDERS Chris Osgood — $1,416,666 Jimmy Howard — $716,666 CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS ROSTER SIZE 20 SALARY CAP $56,800,000 PAYROLL $55,836,543 BONUSES $0 CAP SPACE $963,457 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Well, from what I understand is that it works on a day to day basis. You, obviously, can't be over the daily cap allowance at any point during the season. There are 193 days in the season. With a $56.8M cap for the year that translates into a daily payroll of $294,401. Once all of the forwards return (Franzen included, ABdelkader sent to GR, and May waived) the Wings would have a daily payroll of $295,573. However, what I don't udnerstand is the cap relief that they may be entitled to due to Franzen's injury. If ppl care, you can refer to Red Wings - Cap Geek to see the daily tracking of the Wings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio 29 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 It's a very difficult question to answer because there is too much information that isn't readily available. It's very difficult to work out the exact LTI exemption and also the amount of accrued cap space prior to the injuries. To keep it simple though, the Wings will probably just need to meet the daily cap spend or thereabouts. Getting Maltby, Abdelkader, Leino and Lebda of the roster would achieve that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio 29 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Well, from what I understand is that it works on a day to day basis. You, obviously, can't be over the daily cap allowance at any point during the season. That's not true. You can go over as long as you're not over the cap at the end of the season. So basically, to go over it at some point you must have been under it as well to offset it. Does that make sense? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 (edited) With everyone healthy and here, we are over a mil over the cap and 2 guys over roster limits... the most obvious moves would be to move Leino and Lebda, as this will free up the most cap with the least damage to the roster, then waive/send down May(not a fan of sending him down, but he's one of the only ones we probably won't have to worry about losing to waivers) and we should be clear... Edited January 29, 2010 by stevkrause Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 It's a very difficult question to answer because there is too much information that isn't readily available. It's very difficult to work out the exact LTI exemption and also the amount of accrued cap space prior to the injuries. To keep it simple though, the Wings will probably just need to meet the daily cap spend or thereabouts. Getting Maltby, Abdelkader, Leino and Lebda of the roster would achieve that. Well, yeah, you're right the easiest way to accomplish meeting the daily cap figure would be just to drop an additional player and trim the roster to 22. If you refer to the list below you can see the daily cap hits of each player. The second column represents who I'd imagine we'd have on our roster once everyone returns (except Lilja). As you can see, with those 23 guys we're still over our daily allowance. So unless an additional player were cut/waiver/whatever I don't see how it'll work out. That being said, I don't know how LTIR allowances/relief works (if at all). Roster Daily Cap Hit 1 Nicklas Lidstrom » D $38,601 $38,601 2 Pavel Datsyuk » F $34,715 $34,715 3 Henrik Zetterberg » F $31,520 $31,520 4 Brian Rafalski » D $31,088 $31,088 5 Johan Franzen » F $20,490 $20,490 6 Brad Stuart » D $19,430 $19,430 7 Niklas Kronwall » D $15,544 $15,544 8 Valtteri Filppula » F $15,544 $15,544 9 Daniel Cleary » F $14,508 $14,508 10 Tomas Holmstrom » F $11,658 $11,658 11 Kris Draper » F $8,204 $8,204 12 Jason Williams » F $7,772 $7,772 13 Todd Bertuzzi » F $7,772 $7,772 14 Chris Osgood » G $7,340 $7,340 15 Andreas Lilja » D $6,477 LTIR 16 Jonathan Ericsson » D $4,663 $4,663 17 Kirk Maltby » F $4,577 $4,577 18 Justin Abdelkader » F $4,404 GR 19 Ville Leino » F $4,145 $4,145 20 Jimmy Howard » G $3,713 $3,713 21 Brett Lebda » D $3,368 $3,368 22 Darren Helm » F $3,106 $3,106 23 Patrick Eaves » F $2,591 $2,591 24 Derek Meech » D $2,504 $2,504 25 Brad May » F $2,591 waived 26 Drew Miller » F $2,720 $2,720 Daily Cap Allocation $295,573 Annual Cap $56,800,000 Max Daily Allowance $294,301 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevkrause 1,247 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 It's a very difficult question to answer because there is too much information that isn't readily available. It's very difficult to work out the exact LTI exemption and also the amount of accrued cap space prior to the injuries. To keep it simple though, the Wings will probably just need to meet the daily cap spend or thereabouts. Getting Maltby, Abdelkader, Leino and Lebda of the roster would achieve that. Maltby's not going anywhere... more like May, Abs, Leino and Lebda... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 That's not true. You can go over as long as you're not over the cap at the end of the season. So basically, to go over it at some point you must have been under it as well to offset it. Does that make sense? I see what you mean. So ignoring Lilja's potential return, the fact that even with the additions throughout the year of May and Miller and other call ups the fact that we were under the daily cap allowance (with injuries) now that players are coming back we can be over the daily allowance so long as that at the end of the year the sum of all of our daily allowances does not exceed the annual cap figure ($56.8M) we're cool. Right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio 29 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Well, yeah, you're right the easiest way to accomplish meeting the daily cap figure would be just to drop an additional player and trim the roster to 22. If you refer to the list below you can see the daily cap hits of each player. The second column represents who I'd imagine we'd have on our roster once everyone returns (except Lilja). As you can see, with those 23 guys we're still over our daily allowance. So unless an additional player were cut/waiver/whatever I don't see how it'll work out. That being said, I don't know how LTIR allowances/relief works (if at all). Roster Daily Cap Hit 1 Nicklas Lidstrom » D $38,601 $38,601 2 Pavel Datsyuk » F $34,715 $34,715 3 Henrik Zetterberg » F $31,520 $31,520 4 Brian Rafalski » D $31,088 $31,088 5 Johan Franzen » F $20,490 $20,490 6 Brad Stuart » D $19,430 $19,430 7 Niklas Kronwall » D $15,544 $15,544 8 Valtteri Filppula » F $15,544 $15,544 9 Daniel Cleary » F $14,508 $14,508 10 Tomas Holmstrom » F $11,658 $11,658 11 Kris Draper » F $8,204 $8,204 12 Jason Williams » F $7,772 $7,772 13 Todd Bertuzzi » F $7,772 $7,772 14 Chris Osgood » G $7,340 $7,340 15 Andreas Lilja » D $6,477 LTIR 16 Jonathan Ericsson » D $4,663 $4,663 17 Kirk Maltby » F $4,577 $4,577 18 Justin Abdelkader » F $4,404 GR 19 Ville Leino » F $4,145 $4,145 20 Jimmy Howard » G $3,713 $3,713 21 Brett Lebda » D $3,368 $3,368 22 Darren Helm » F $3,106 $3,106 23 Patrick Eaves » F $2,591 $2,591 24 Derek Meech » D $2,504 $2,504 25 Brad May » F $2,591 waived 26 Drew Miller » F $2,720 $2,720 Daily Cap Allocation $295,573 Annual Cap $56,800,000 Max Daily Allowance $294,301 The number I have is $292,551 after those four have been removed. That leaves 13 forwards, 7 D and 2 goalies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio 29 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 I see what you mean. So ignoring Lilja's potential return, the fact that even with the additions throughout the year of May and Miller and other call ups the fact that we were under the daily cap allowance (with injuries) now that players are coming back we can be over the daily allowance so long as that at the end of the year the sum of all of our daily allowances does not exceed the annual cap figure ($56.8M) we're cool. Right? Well yes and no. The Wings situation as you described is not accurate because LTIR is not really relief. As I understand it, when a team is required to use LTI exemption they are essentially up against the cap and are not accruing any money for future use. If that had not been the case the Wings could have made a decent acquisition at the deadline of $2-3m. But the bold is indeed correct. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 The number I have is $292,551 after those four have been removed. That leaves 13 forwards, 7 D and 2 goalies. I only removed 3 - Abdelkader, May, and Lilja. Who'd you remove as the fourth? I mean I get that we could remove another roster player and get under the daily cap allowance - that's obvious. However, who would realistically be removed? Also, as another poster pointed out apparently we're able to be above the daily cap allowance due to LTIR and being below the daily allowance earlier in the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 (edited) I see what you mean. So ignoring Lilja's potential return, the fact that even with the additions throughout the year of May and Miller and other call ups the fact that we were under the daily cap allowance (with injuries) now that players are coming back we can be over the daily allowance so long as that at the end of the year the sum of all of our daily allowances does not exceed the annual cap figure ($56.8M) we're cool. Right? LTIR players still count towards the cap... Edited January 29, 2010 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wombat 26 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Players on LTIR don't have their salaries disappear for cap purposes. The salary still counts against the cap. The exception is that teams are allowed to exceed the cap with replacement player(s) for him to a level less than or equal to the injured player's cap number. So it's not like the Wings have been accruing extra cap space by having guys on LTIR... it means that they have used the full daily cap hit (plus the replacement player exemption extra) for almost the entire season. And actually, I'm not even sure if you can accrue cap space over the course of the season. It seems ambiguous and different websites make different claims. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rage 24 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Wow, I have learned nothing! In fact, I'm more confused now! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Ok, so here's how I think it all makes sense. I made some assumptions along the way but I think this all works out. Assumptions: 1. All of Bertuzzi, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Cleary, Holmstrom, Williams, Leino, Filppula, Miller, Maltby, Draper, Helm, Eaves, Abdelkader, May, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson, Lebda, Meech, Howard, and Osgood have counted against the cap every day through out this season. (a 24 man roster so that this is overly conservative). If summed up the total daily cap hit of this roster is $282,078. 2. Any call ups (i.e Janik, Ritola, Newbury, Kindl etc) are negligible against the overall cap or fall within the range calculated for Franzen's LTIR. 3. 193 Days in Season. 120 Days to date. 73 Days Remaining. 4. Daily Cap Allowance = $294,301 5. Franzen returned , Abdelkader was sent to GR, and May was waived. All happening today. Total Cap=$56.8M Daily Allowance= $56.8M/193 Days = $294,301 per day Based on assumption (1) to date the Wings would have spent (against the cap, not actual salary paid out)=120days*$282,078=$33,849,360. Based on Assumption (4) to date teams are allowed to have spent up to=120Days*$294,301=$35,316,062. By now dropping Abdelkader to GR, waiving May, and adding Franzen back to our active roster our daily cap hit is $295,573 over the course of the remaining 73 Days. =73 Days *$295,573=$21,576,829 Cap Spent to Date + Cap To Be Spent Over Remainder of Season = $33,849,360+$21,576,829=$55,426,189 What this implies is that over the course of the entire season we are still cap compliant. If Lilja were to return we'd still have plent of space (over the course of the entire season, not daily space) to insert him into our line up. The only issue at that point would be roster size. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 ha ok now I'm confused again. I know that when a player goes on LTIR he doesnt fully disappear from the cap and that you can only replace him with someone of equal or lesser value. However, I think the way it works (once on LTIR) is that your cap hit is prorated. Salary/193=Daily Cap Hit Daily Cap Hit *Days on LTIR=LTIR Allowance You also subtract what replacements may have for Daily Cap Hits as well. That's how I've udnerstood it anyways. I don't know if it's right though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Players on LTIR don't have their salaries disappear for cap purposes. The salary still counts against the cap. The exception is that teams are allowed to exceed the cap with replacement player(s) for him to a level less than or equal to the injured player's cap number. So it's not like the Wings have been accruing extra cap space by having guys on LTIR... it means that they have used the full daily cap hit (plus the replacement player exemption extra) for almost the entire season. And actually, I'm not even sure if you can accrue cap space over the course of the season. It seems ambiguous and different websites make different claims. You can accrue unused cap space over the season, that's for sure. But LTIR definitely muddies it... I believe your first paragraph is dead-on on how it is applied. In other words, LTIR specifically only gives cap relief while the player is out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio 29 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Ok, so here's how I think it all makes sense. I made some assumptions along the way but I think this all works out. Assumptions: 1. All of Bertuzzi, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Cleary, Holmstrom, Williams, Leino, Filppula, Miller, Maltby, Draper, Helm, Eaves, Abdelkader, May, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson, Lebda, Meech, Howard, and Osgood have counted against the cap every day through out this season. (a 24 man roster so that this is overly conservative). If summed up the total daily cap hit of this roster is $282,078. 2. Any call ups (i.e Janik, Ritola, Newbury, Kindl etc) are negligible against the overall cap or fall within the range calculated for Franzen's LTIR. 3. 193 Days in Season. 120 Days to date. 73 Days Remaining. 4. Daily Cap Allowance = $294,301 5. Franzen returned , Abdelkader was sent to GR, and May was waived. All happening today. Total Cap=$56.8M Daily Allowance= $56.8M/193 Days = $294,301 per day Based on assumption (1) to date the Wings would have spent (against the cap, not actual salary paid out)=120days*$282,078=$33,849,360. Based on Assumption (4) to date teams are allowed to have spent up to=120Days*$294,301=$35,316,062. By now dropping Abdelkader to GR, waiving May, and adding Franzen back to our active roster our daily cap hit is $295,573 over the course of the remaining 73 Days. =73 Days *$295,573=$21,576,829 Cap Spent to Date + Cap To Be Spent Over Remainder of Season = $33,849,360+$21,576,829=$55,426,189 What this implies is that over the course of the entire season we are still cap compliant. If Lilja were to return we'd still have plent of space (over the course of the entire season, not daily space) to insert him into our line up. The only issue at that point would be roster size. To put it very simply. In the Wings case, the amount on any day we've gone over the daily cap hit is equal to our LTI exemption for that day. The LTI exemption for every day of the season is added to make the LTIR at the end of the season. So for example: If a team has only 4 days using LTIR (just to keep it simple) of $10,000 over the daily cap hit. Then you could say that at the end of the season, their actual cap allowance is $56,840,000 because they got a total of $40,000 LTIR. However on those 4 days they did not accrue any cap allowance. This is the case for Detroit for pretty much the entire season. Aside from very early on, we have accrued nothing to use later in the season so while we probably can go slightly over the dailt cap amount, that amount would be negligible. Also, with regards to what the Wings have spent based on assumption (1), that is incorrect. It is those players plus the pro-rated cap hits of any players recalled (Janik, Kindl, Ritola etc.) for the time they were on the roster. This puts Detroit over the allowance but that is okay because of LTIR. This is such a tough thing to explain. Is it beginning to make sense? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wombat 26 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 You can accrue unused cap space over the season, that's for sure. But LTIR definitely muddies it... I believe your first paragraph is dead-on on how it is applied. In other words, LTIR specifically only gives cap relief while the player is out. At least for this situation, it's moot whether or not cap space is accrued during the season. Since players on LTIR count against the cap, the Wings have been "over" the cap from day 1. These 23 players have been on the cap since the beginning of the season: Forwards: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Cleary, Holmstrom, Draper, Bertuzzi, Williams, Maltby, Leino, Helm, Eaves 13 players, $32.152M Defensemen: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Lilja, Ericsson, Lebda, Meech 8 players, $23.483M Goalies: Osgood, Howard 2 Players, $2.134M Total 23 players, $57.769M, which is $.969M over the cap. Add to that all the salaries for LTIR replacement players, and the Wings have been decently over the cap the entire year. So even if the Wings could accrue space, it was impossible to do so from the onset of the season. But you are totally right... this supposedly clear-cut hard cap is actually quite muddy and confusing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rufio 29 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 At least for this situation, it's moot whether or not cap space is accrued during the season. Since players on LTIR count against the cap, the Wings have been "over" the cap from day 1. These 23 players have been on the cap since the beginning of the season: Forwards: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Cleary, Holmstrom, Draper, Bertuzzi, Williams, Maltby, Leino, Helm, Eaves 13 players, $32.152M Defensemen: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Lilja, Ericsson, Lebda, Meech 8 players, $23.483M Goalies: Osgood, Howard 2 Players, $2.134M Total 23 players, $57.769M, which is $.969M over the cap. Add to that all the salaries for LTIR replacement players, and the Wings have been decently over the cap the entire year. So even if the Wings could accrue space, it was impossible to do so from the onset of the season. But you are totally right... this supposedly clear-cut hard cap is actually quite muddy and confusing! Helm was on the roster as a 2-way at the beginning of the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mindfly Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Why is Maltby "Untouchable" ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luvmnger 125 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 sidetrack "sort of"........... from what i gathered from ken and mick last game....if a player coming back from LTI is cleared...he can be sent to grand rapids for a "conditioning stint" for 2 weeks to adjust. this was a probable for lilja.... in 2 weeks "of play" that puts us past the deadline...therefore lifting the cap. so with that in mind....can we acquire a injured player and send him to the minors for this "stint" and not have him count? there has to be an exception for this rule....i just dont know. hypothetical....mule, willy, holmer, lilja, my brain....all in the minors for conditioning... trade meech,leino for picks...waive may sign kovalchuk, johnson, whitney. ha! i am presently selling this "crack" at half price! act now...demand will be incredible! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 sidetrack "sort of"........... from what i gathered from ken and mick last game....if a player coming back from LTI is cleared...he can be sent to grand rapids for a "conditioning stint" for 2 weeks to adjust. this was a probable for lilja.... in 2 weeks "of play" that puts us past the deadline...therefore lifting the cap. so with that in mind....can we acquire a injured player and send him to the minors for this "stint" and not have him count? there has to be an exception for this rule....i just dont know. hypothetical....mule, willy, holmer, lilja, my brain....all in the minors for conditioning... trade meech,leino for picks...waive may sign kovalchuk, johnson, whitney. ha! i am presently selling this "crack" at half price! act now...demand will be incredible! Bud, as nice as all that sounds, the cap is still in effect after the trade deadline. It's only in the playoffs that the cap disappears. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
