John Tavares - Still a strong Calder Trophy Candidate?

[egroen 384]

I will try to explain the point this way:

There are 12 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies in a team. Do you agree that the percentage of kids / players in general that start playing hockey "roughly" equals this distribution between the different positions? In this case being in the top 10 goalies is not as impressive as being in the top 10 forwards simply because you face less competitors. However, being in the top 10 percent is obviously equallz impressive for goalies and forwards. Does that make sense?

I disagree -- growing up playing hockey, everyone had a chance at every position and those who were best suited to play goalie played goalie. Sure, there were not a lot of positions at goalie, so you can't just throw the kid with no coordination in as a goalie as you could with him as a forward on the 4th line. Because of this limit, the average goalie is a heck of a lot better than the average forward.

It's the same thing with the quarterback position in football. Just because the quarterback position is limited does not make the #1 quarterback in the world less impressive than the #1 lineman in the world -- playing the sport for most of your life, you are going to play the different positions and end up where you are best.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

go Myers go!

[Stevie Y 0]

I disagree -- growing up playing hockey, everyone had a chance at every position and those who were best suited to play goalie played goalie. Sure, there were not a lot of positions at goalie, so you can't just throw the kid with no coordination in as a goalie as you could with him as a forward on the 4th line. Because of this limit, the average goalie is a heck of a lot better than the average forward.

It's the same thing with the quarterback position in football. Just because the quarterback position is limited does not make the #1 quarterback in the world less impressive than the #1 lineman in the world -- playing the sport for most of your life, you are going to play the different positions and end up where you are best.

I am not sold on this. When you start playing hockey your position is not solely determined by your skills. Kids who adore a certain player are more likely to try to play his position.

[egroen 384]

And why do you think this is the case? Do only "more talented" kids start playing as a goalie? My guess would be that the talent is spread according to a normal distribution among all the different positions as it usually always is as the population becomes big enough. So I dont see a reason why the goalies pool should be less diluted...

If you took the top 2 forwards from each team, and the top 2 defenseman from each team and compared them to goalies - then I am sure you would see equal distribution. But tacking on an extra, inferior 10 forwards and 4 defenseman from each team is obviously going to dilute the talent level much more.

[egroen 384]

I am not sold on this. When you start playing hockey your position is not solely determined by your skills. Kids who adore a certain player are more likely to try to play his position.

To a certain point - but eventually as you get older and progress the coaches are going to put you at the right position... versus letting you play whatever you want. Most kids will also want to play at the position they are best at, naturally.

[Stevie Y 0]

If you took the top 2 forwards from each team, and the top 2 defenseman from each team and compared them to goalies - then I am sure you would see equal distribution. But tacking on an extra, inferior 10 forwards and 4 defenseman from each team is obviously going to dilute the talent level much more.

Maybe my explanation wasn't clear. I wanted to say that the talent for every position is spread according to a normal distribution among all the players that play that position. Therefore if you have way more forwards than goalies chances are hight that you also have more talented forwards than talented goalies. Of course this applies to absolute terms, relatively you will get the same amount of talent.

I think this situation is similar to why bigger nations have more talented athletes (in general) than smaller countries. If you have a bigger pool to draw from you will get more talented players. Obviously the wealth, culture, etc of the nations does also play a vital role, but I guess you get my point...

[Datsasuk 2]

Tavares will always be a candidate and will be in the mix because he was the #1 pick, but there are definitely stronger candidates out there who have been mentioned in the thread already.

[Finnish Wing 110]

I disagree -- growing up playing hockey, everyone had a chance at every position and those who were best suited to play goalie played goalie. Sure, there were not a lot of positions at goalie, so you can't just throw the kid with no coordination in as a goalie as you could with him as a forward on the 4th line. Because of this limit, the average goalie is a heck of a lot better than the average forward.

It's the same thing with the quarterback position in football. Just because the quarterback position is limited does not make the #1 quarterback in the world less impressive than the #1 lineman in the world -- playing the sport for most of your life, you are going to play the different positions and end up where you are best.

Here in Finland I think it's the opposite. Nobody wants to be a goalie (at least when playing outside games with friends). Yet, we have some of the better goalies. Kinda weird. xD