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Hockeytown0001

WCQF Game 6 GDT: Coyotes 5 at Red Wings 2

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Seriously, have the Wings won an afternoon game EVER? I can't remember ever winning one.

5-4 win at United center maybe 2months ago? although they were really close to let chicago tie that one (and yeah, lose in OT/SO)

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Game 4 was the shutout. I removed Howard's best game statistically, to show how the rest of the series has been rather tragic.

What happens if we just idiotically remove his worst game?

Howard's numbers if you take out Game 6:

Saves/Shots, Sv%: 147/159, .926%

GA, Mins, GAA: 12, 297:02, 2.42

SAPG: 32

That's good enough for 5th in Sv% and 7th in GAA! For a rookie, what a champ!

Putting Osgood in for game 7 could be the most stupid decision Babcock has ever made.

Edited by Z and D for the C

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What happens if we just idiotically remove his worst game?

Howard's numbers if you take out Game 6:

Saves/Shots, Sv%: 147/159, .926%

GA, Mins, GAA: 12, 297:02, 2.42

SAPG: 32

That's good enough for 5th in Sv% and 7th in GAA! For a rookie, what a champ!

Putting Osgood in for game 7 could be the most stupid decision Babcock has ever made.

:clap: Bravo. I'm a huge Osgood supporter, but at this stage of the season and with him so out of practice, Babcock would be a fool to risk a series on an unknown. While statically last game was his worst, the only game I really think you could give Howard even a decent amount of lame in was game 3. Stats don't tell the whole picture in such a small time frame, and if you don't believe me look at Sammuelsson's goals, and Helms +/-

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Why are you saying howard will play big and wings will win, they were supposed to win game 6, too... they didn't... there's too much "We'll be fine"-thinking on these boards DAMMIT. :thumbdown:

Wake the f*ck up, wings play like s*** and being too inconsistent to qualify...

First off, being the fan of a pro team really is quite sobering. I used to feel like you did. If the Wings didn't win, I took it all negatively. I was hard on the team, and more over, harder on myself. After I started playing hockey, I got a whole new appreciation for the sport. When I watch the Wings now, I want them to win, but ultimately I know that its up to them to make it happen. When I play my games, I want to win, and I know that my performance and the performance of my team dictates the outcome. You feel that you have more control over the outcome because you are playing the game.

The Wings were not supposed to win game 6 anymore than the Wings were supposed to win the Stanley Cup. The Wings had to come out with a hard fought intense effort to win, and they didn't. Fault Howard alone? No. Fault the team? Yes. No one brought their A game Sunday afternoon.

The general thinking on these boards is what most fans do. If you are a glass half full kind of guy like me, then you think the Wings will be fine and you believe it. If you are a glass half empty kind of guy, like you are, then you think the world is coming to an end and the Wings are going to lose it. So who is right? We will see on Tuesday. No one knows what the final outcome will be. It just all depends if you are a pessimist or an optimist.

You can get pissed off at the Wings or members on this forum for being positive all you want. Just like I can continue to call out people like yourself for being bandwagon fans. The simple fact of the matter is that people will behave like they want to. In the end, the Wings will play their game and none of this really matters. Well, except for the bandwagon fans like yourself that will head off to root for the Blackhawks, Sharks, Caps, or other winning team down the road after the Wings have a few tough seasons.

Edited by Nightfall
Vladifan and Hockeymom1960 like this

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This series reminds me a lot of the Anaheim series last year. Anaheim was really the better team (as is Phoenix) in many games, but the Wings got that lucky last second goal by Cleary. Then they were fine for most of the rest of the playoffs. Let's hope we get a repeat here and Phoenix is the toughest team we'll face (which seems likely, based on who is left).

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This series reminds me a lot of the Anaheim series last year. Anaheim was really the better team (as is Phoenix) in many games, but the Wings got that lucky last second goal by Cleary. Then they were fine for most of the rest of the playoffs. Let's hope we get a repeat here and Phoenix is the toughest team we'll face (which seems likely, based on who is left).

This I have to agree with.

Detroit, Vancouver, and Phoenix were the three teams I thought were the best in the league when the playoffs started. If the Wings get by Phoenix, then Vancouver will be the next best team, but we won't face them in the 2nd round anyway unless something crazy happens.

Edited by Nightfall

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>>>

You can get pissed off at the Wings or members on this forum for being positive all you want. Just like I can continue to call out people like yourself for being bandwagon fans. The simple fact of the matter is that people will behave like they want to. In the end, the Wings will play their game and none of this really matters. Well, except for the bandwagon fans like yourself that will head off to root for the Blackhawks, Sharks, Caps, or other winning team down the road after the Wings have a few tough seasons.

This is exactly where it is, and always has been and always will be. We have absolutely no control - not only over what happens with the team, but also what happens on this board. We can only control ourselves and what we say and do.

Mindfly, on the one hand I feel very bad for you, because I think your cup is almost empty. But I let you tick me off when you start putting down the Wings as if they owe you something. THEY OWE YOU JACK.

They will play their game tomorrow night and I hope they win. But if they don't, I'm sure as hell not coming back on here to read posts like yours. Who the hell needs it? Sure as hell not me. In my mind, the Detroit Red Wings will remain the class act of the athletic world.

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Meh...I'm feeling misunderstood... ah f*** it, no need to explain further... probably some culture differences mixed in as well... to hell with it... i guess it comes down to i view sports differently than most others

Edited by mindfly

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THEY OWE YOU JACK.

Disagree to a point. If I pay a hundred dollars for a ticket, I should be owed at the least great effort. If I were a Wings player (no, I'm not a day-drinker), I would feel I owed the fans. However, outside the confines of an NHL arena, I completely agree that a players owes a fan nothing.

I believe as fans of the greatest organization in sports, we should never be ok with anything less than greatness. The minute you lower your expectations, you become the Toronto Maple Leafs.

And this is only a conversation because we are different people with different personalities who handle losses different. Some people get labeled blind optimists, and the others are bandwagon pessimists.

2guns likes this

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What happens if we just idiotically remove his worst game?

Howard's numbers if you take out Game 6:

Saves/Shots, Sv%: 147/159, .926%

GA, Mins, GAA: 12, 297:02, 2.42

SAPG: 32

That's good enough for 5th in Sv% and 7th in GAA! For a rookie, what a champ!

Putting Osgood in for game 7 could be the most stupid decision Babcock has ever made.

I removed the one game because Drake was talking up how well Howard had played in games 4 and 5. So I removed Game 4 and showed what the overall stats were for Howard for the rest of the series, including his strong performance in Game 5.

Howard hasn't been giving up no-chance goals either; many of the goals have been goals where he could have stopped them either by playing the puck differently prior to the scoring chance (tossing the puck out of his glove with forecheckers present, and seeing it end up in his net three seconds later for example) or by managing his rebounds better, let alone a goal or two where he has just plain been beaten from above the hash with no screen.

Howard's four games where he has allowed 3+ goals have been poor performances by him. In some cases, the defense has made a mistake. In others, Howard has f***ed the team. There have also been cases where Howard screwed the pooch and the defense or a forward saved a goal; that has happened at least as often as the defense has been the reason for a goal against.

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Detroit carried the play the entire game. Bryz was good early and the Coyotes got every damn break in this game. If we're buzzing around like this next game I like our chances. GO WINGS!

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I am going to be honest; I want the Wings to win tomorrow but I think the chance is not much. I hope the Wings prove I am wrong but since the Yotes stole the momentum in game 5 and it is in Pheonix, all the pressure would be on the Wings. I do not see the Wings ever outplayed the Yotes in this series excpet for game 4. The win in game 2 was both defenses were terrible and the win in game 5 was the Wings woke up in the late 3rd period and we surely got lucky.

Although the Coytoes did not win some games, they were looking hungrier than us for the entire series. If the Wings do not win, the blame should be on themselves.

kmfdm likes this

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I've always been worried about the Yotes and Nashville. The Yotes have been uncannily been able to best us even though they're just Arizona. Nashville is just simply a toss up, half the time they got our number, the other half their just the Preds. I'm a little irritated it's dragging out this long. We'll be tired for the finals at this rate.

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Disagree to a point. If I pay a hundred dollars for a ticket, I should be owed at the least great effort. If I were a Wings player (no, I'm not a day-drinker), I would feel I owed the fans. However, outside the confines of an NHL arena, I completely agree that a players owes a fan nothing.

I believe as fans of the greatest organization in sports, we should never be ok with anything less than greatness. The minute you lower your expectations, you become the Toronto Maple Leafs.

And this is only a conversation because we are different people with different personalities who handle losses different. Some people get labeled blind optimists, and the others are bandwagon pessimists.

We paid through the noses to see the Wings in Chicago about five years ago. We spent way too much money, because we wanted to be down close to the ice. So what happens after spending all that money for "good" seats? We have a loud-mouth know-it-all in our ear all night long ripping Chelios. Not only that, there were the airfares. And to top it all off,the Wings lost. But the bottom line is, how was any of that their fault? I had no control over that loss in spite of all the money we spent. What I am willing to pay to see them play has absolutely no bearing on whether they will show me a good game. I can only hope they do because I know they have it in them.

Oh yeah, I ***** and moan. But for instance with that game, even though I was really down for a couple of days, I did not go on any board and rip and tear, or call them names and blame them for my choices. How stupid, selfish and short-sighted would that be?

Hell yes, I understand being upset with them. But the part that absolutely sickens me is the name-calling, the derogatory comments, the childish little hissy fits, blaming the Wings for our choices. And that includes what we choose to pay for tickets and the fact that we root for them at all.

Edited by Vladifan

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We paid through the noses to see the Wings in Chicago about five years ago. We spent way too much money, because we wanted to be down close to the ice. So what happens after spending all that money for "good" seats? We have a loud-mouth know-it-all in our ear all night long ripping Chelios. Not only that, there were the airfares. And to top it all off,the Wings lost. But the bottom line is, how was any of that their fault? I had no control over that loss in spite of all the money we spent. What I am willing to pay to see them play has absolutely no bearing on whether they will show me a good game. I can only hope they do because I know they have it in them.

Oh yeah, I ***** and moan. But for instance with that game, even though I was really down for a couple of days, I did not go on any board and rip and tear, or call them names and blame them for my choices. How stupid, selfish and short-sighted would that be?

Hell yes, I understand being upset with them. But the part that absolutely sickens me is the name-calling, the derogatory comments, the childish little hissy fits, blaming the Wings for our choices. And that includes what we choose to pay for tickets and the fact that we root for them at all.

Sure, on a game by game basis, it's impossible for them to owe us anything. I'm sure that game they lost was still a solid effort, it's just something those bad games happen.

My point was, that on an overall basis, if a team is having terrible season after terrible season (obvious not a problem here), the people who pay the players salaries will stop showing up. Then you have a situation like Phoenix.

Ted Lindsay was the first to skate the Cup around the ice because he felt he owed it to the people who paid his salary.

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Sure, on a game by game basis, it's impossible for them to owe us anything. I'm sure that game they lost was still a solid effort, it's just something those bad games happen.

My point was, that on an overall basis, if a team is having terrible season after terrible season (obvious not a problem here), the people who pay the players salaries will stop showing up. Then you have a situation like Phoenix.

Ted Lindsay was the first to skate the Cup around the ice because he felt he owed it to the people who paid his salary.

I agree. Except that I think Phoenix was a bad choice in the first place for a hockey team. But it definitely could happen that some day a lot of Wings' fans will start giving up on them after some bad seasons. But those are choices we fans DO have control over. If enough fans leave, then changes will be made.

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I removed the one game because Drake was talking up how well Howard had played in games 4 and 5. So I removed Game 4 and showed what the overall stats were for Howard for the rest of the series, including his strong performance in Game 5.

Howard hasn't been giving up no-chance goals either; many of the goals have been goals where he could have stopped them either by playing the puck differently prior to the scoring chance (tossing the puck out of his glove with forecheckers present, and seeing it end up in his net three seconds later for example) or by managing his rebounds better, let alone a goal or two where he has just plain been beaten from above the hash with no screen.

Howard's four games where he has allowed 3+ goals have been poor performances by him. In some cases, the defense has made a mistake. In others, Howard has f***ed the team. There have also been cases where Howard screwed the pooch and the defense or a forward saved a goal; that has happened at least as often as the defense has been the reason for a goal against.

There is no doubt Howard didn't have a good game Sunday. But doing something as stupid and idiotic as arbitrarily taking out his best game to fuel your ridiculous conclusion that Osgood should start game seven doesn't come close to working. If you took out any goalie's best games, he'd suddenly look really crappy.

But what else can we expect from you than manipulating numbers to support your inane theories.

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Something else to chew on.

In every game Detroit has scored 2 or fewer goals in this series, Detroit has lost. 3 or more? They have won.

It is very hard to win a game when you only score two goals. If Detroit scored 3 or more, then they would have tied game 1, and maybe done better in game 3 when they lost 4-2.

Howard is only part of the equation here. They need an all around strong effort. A passionate effort. If they don't play hungry, they will be done on Tuesday night. If they come out with a hard fought effort, they will advance. Its as simple as that.

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Why are you saying howard will play big and wings will win, they were supposed to win game 6, too... they didn't... there's too much "We'll be fine"-thinking on these boards DAMMIT. :thumbdown:

Wake the f*ck up, wings play like s*** and being too inconsistent to qualify...

I've been watching the Wings for over 20 years now, and honestly I hate when they lose. I get anxious during the playoffs. And pissed when a bad call goes against them.

But if watching them made me as miserable as it seems to make you, I honestly would never watch hockey again. Ever.

The main point of my post was that you gotta go with Howard at this point. Ozzy's way too cold to step in for a game seven. Howard is still the number one goalie and has a better chance of playing big.

And given I have no friggin control over how he plays or what the outcome is, why not hope he plays big and the Wings win?

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There is no doubt Howard didn't have a good game Sunday. But doing something as stupid and idiotic as arbitrarily taking out his best game to fuel your ridiculous conclusion that Osgood should start game seven doesn't come close to working. If you took out any goalie's best games, he'd suddenly look really crappy.

But what else can we expect from you than manipulating numbers to support your inane theories.

Ok, how's this for manipulating numbers:

Howard's save percentage has dropped by .014 from the regular season to the playoffs, despite the fact that in game 4 he had a shutout and in game 5 he stopped 30 of 31 for a .968%. From the start of game 4 to the end of game 5, Howard posted a .983%. and a .50 GAA on a SAPG of 30.

That's a stellar pair of games to be sure. But let's contrast that with his other four games, which work out to .875% and a 4.05 GAA with a SAPG of 32.

What exactly was so different in the other four games? If you say the defense, I will point out the fact that at least three or four separate times in those four games the defense stopped the Yotes from putting the puck into an otherwise empty net while Howard was down and out. So while the defense may have made some mistakes, they also came to the rescue more than a few times.

Was it how the Yotes played? Were they just not able to finish the chances like normal in 4 and 5? Well, if that's the case, then games 4 and 5 were statistical aberrations and don't reflect Howard's true level of play in those games, meaning his stats in 1-3 and 6 are more indicative of how he has been performing.

Howard is a damn good goalie, and I have been saying he would be for years now. But he is not perfect, nor is he immune from criticism. And he certainly has not played well for most of this series. At this point I think Howard starts but is on a short leash with regards to quick goals and bad goals if the Wings are down, but Babcock likely rides Howard out until the end if the Wings have a good lead.

But one final fact before you give me the "Howard's a rookie" thing. Jimmy Howard is an experienced professional, and he is 26 years old with a 37-15-10 record, which translates to a 32-18-12 record without the shootout, 3 shutouts, and a Calder nomination.

Not including the part of the 98-99 season played when Ozzie hit his 26th birthday, he had a 132-52-30 record (W-L-T), 20 shutouts, a Vezina nomination and second-team All-Star selection, and had won a Cup as a starter and one as a backup. As far as the Calder, Osgood had the misfortune of having the same rookie year as Brodeur, yet still got votes for Calder and All-Rookie team.

Howard shouldn't be making rookie mistakes, and he shouldn't be allowed the "he's a rookie" excuse; he played 186 games with the Griffins and 9 with the Wings before he joined the team full time. He played 30 playoff games with the Griffins also. It's not like he hasn't played under pressure, and he has had five years as a pro in the Wings' system, being specifically groomed as the Wings' goalie of the future. Anyone who blindly tolerates mistakes from Howard should be doing the same for Ericsson, Meech, and anyone else 26 and under. These guys have had years to develop, sure they will make mistakes, but they are not 20 year old rookies with under 100 pro games played who are being thrown into the fire of the playoffs like Ozzie was in 1994.

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If you remove Howard's worst game, we're getting ready for Game 6. We're not, so don't.

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Ok, how's this for manipulating numbers:

Howard's save percentage has dropped by .014 from the regular season to the playoffs, despite the fact that in game 4 he had a shutout and in game 5 he stopped 30 of 31 for a .968%. From the start of game 4 to the end of game 5, Howard posted a .983%. and a .50 GAA on a SAPG of 30.

That's a stellar pair of games to be sure. But let's contrast that with his other four games, which work out to .875% and a 4.05 GAA with a SAPG of 32.

OH NO! A ROOKIE GOALTENDER ISN'T USED TO THE PLAYOFFS! HOW COULD WE HAVE FORSEEN THIS!?!?!

What exactly was so different in the other four games? If you say the defense, I will point out the fact that at least three or four separate times in those four games the defense stopped the Yotes from putting the puck into an otherwise empty net while Howard was down and out. So while the defense may have made some mistakes, they also came to the rescue more than a few times.

They still aren't putting the puck in the net. 2 goals on average (talking about the 3 losses) doesn't win you hockey games.

Was it how the Yotes played? Were they just not able to finish the chances like normal in 4 and 5? Well, if that's the case, then games 4 and 5 were statistical aberrations and don't reflect Howard's true level of play in those games, meaning his stats in 1-3 and 6 are more indicative of how he has been performing.

I don't think anyone believes this. The Wings as a team were better than the Yotes in their wins, and visa versa for their losses. It's probably more black and white than any other series I have seen yet.

Howard is a damn good goalie, and I have been saying he would be for years now. But he is not perfect, nor is he immune from criticism. And he certainly has not played well for most of this series. At this point I think Howard starts but is on a short leash with regards to quick goals and bad goals if the Wings are down, but Babcock likely rides Howard out until the end if the Wings have a good lead.

Howard is on no leash. His backup is currently blending into the Wings bench like Bootstrap Bill and there is no chance he will be game ready in time for the Wings to make any kind of push for a series win, let alone a game 7.

Also people have been plenty critical of Howard.

But one final fact before you give me the "Howard's a rookie" thing. Jimmy Howard is an experienced professional, and he is 26 years old with a 37-15-10 record, which translates to a 32-18-12 record without the shootout, 3 shutouts, and a Calder nomination.

Last time I checked you need to be a rookie to be eligible for the calder. So it's not valid?

Not including the part of the 98-99 season played when Ozzie hit his 26th birthday, he had a 132-52-30 record (W-L-T), 20 shutouts, a Vezina nomination and second-team All-Star selection, and had won a Cup as a starter and one as a backup. As far as the Calder, Osgood had the misfortune of having the same rookie year as Brodeur, yet still got votes for Calder and All-Rookie team.

This isn't relevant information. Actually, it is. Just wait a minute...

Howard shouldn't be making rookie mistakes, and he shouldn't be allowed the "he's a rookie" excuse; he played 186 games with the Griffins and 9 with the Wings before he joined the team full time. He played 30 playoff games with the Griffins also.

Howard has 9 games of NHL experience at 26. Osgood had over 200. If you cannot understand the difference between playing at the AHL and the NHL level, then there really is no reasoning with you. Nothing prepares you for the NHL season, or playoffs for that matter. The only way to be ready is to play the games. That's why AHL stats aren't brought up when talking about a player's playoff experience. Nobody cares.

It's not like he hasn't played under pressure, and he has had five years as a pro in the Wings' system, being specifically groomed as the Wings' goalie of the future. Anyone who blindly tolerates mistakes from Howard should be doing the same for Ericsson, Meech, and anyone else 26 and under. These guys have had years to develop, sure they will make mistakes, but they are not 20 year old rookies with under 100 pro games played who are being thrown into the fire of the playoffs like Ozzie was in 1994.

Blindly tolerates? Everyone is aware of Howard's faults, and has given him criticism for those faults (especially in game 3). However everyone is grounded in reality, knowing that putting in Osgood would be putting in a goaltender who is not ready to play in the playoffs. It worked in 08 because they had even playing time and Osgood was in game-shape. He is not in game shape now and his 2 or so starts this year proved that.

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Ok, how's this for manipulating numbers:

Howard's save percentage has dropped by .014 from the regular season to the playoffs, despite the fact that in game 4 he had a shutout and in game 5 he stopped 30 of 31 for a .968%. From the start of game 4 to the end of game 5, Howard posted a .983%. and a .50 GAA on a SAPG of 30.

That's a stellar pair of games to be sure. But let's contrast that with his other four games, which work out to .875% and a 4.05 GAA with a SAPG of 32.

Your manipulation is again excellent. Like I said, you're the best person on this site for completely arbitrarily manipulating the numbers to support your viewpoint all the while making it seem logical when the reality is there is no logic behind your posts. Ever.

In the same way you remove his 2 best games, I could say that his playoff Save % is only .014 less than his 4th best regular season Sv% despite have 2 sub par games in his first ever playoffs series while the team hardly played well in front of him. Let's contrast his worst 2 games with his other 4 games, which work out to .938% and...well I don't care enough to do the calculations but you get my point. You can't just randomly take out games and base or support a conclusion off it.

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