Good old Regular Season Joe

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Just looking at the playoff scoring leaders on TSN and noticed Joe Thornton and his classic underachieving and thought I'd share a laugh with you guys. A certain stat jumped right out with it's double digits.//

Regular Season first: (as this is where joe plays "hockey")

79 games

20 goals, 69 assists - 89 points

+17

Now the Playoffs:

13 games

3 goals, 9 assists - 12 points

-10 tied for 2nd worst in playoffs!

and this is with 8 of those points coming in the last 6 games.

joe thornton will never make it to the hall of fame, and this is why.

[stevkrause 1,247]

You should have titled this by his more commonly known name "Big Joe Choke"

[Guest Lidstromboli]

he and the sharks underachieved their way to the WCF alright

[Rufio 29]

You mustn't have watched many of his games with much attention.

I hate Joe Thornton but he has been by far their best player since Round 1. He seemed to be the only player with an ounce of passion in him in the last game. You wanna point fingers?? Heatley and Marleau. They've been extra pathetic. But Joe Thornton has been much improved in these playoffs.

Seriously guys. You can't base an opinion solely on stats.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

but thornton is the only person on his line. just him and a goalie!

[stevkrause 1,247]

You mustn't have watched many of his games with much attention.

I hate Joe Thornton but he has been by far their best player since Round 1. He seemed to be the only player with an ounce of passion in him in the last game. You wanna point fingers?? Heatley and Marleau. They've been extra pathetic. But Joe Thornton has been much improved in these playoffs.

Seriously guys. You can't base an opinion solely on stats.

The point is, when the team needs him to take over and win a game or series, he is yet to prove he can and through the first 2 games against Chicago, he has just proven his choke status...

[HankthaTank 1,100]

He's been in my mind one of the more overrated players in the league. Assists are quite cute but he works for NOTHING. His goals, and I am extremely positive of this, have all been in front of the net on a garbage rebound. If garbage goals were a category which they sure aren't, he would be at the top of the list. He has sissy fits when his team is getting ran, ie. game 4 where Franzen beat the Sharks on his own. Going after a guy like Nick??? Classy. The stats do show a lot and so does the play. No argument would EVER show me that this guy isn't the most overrated player this league has.

[stevkrause 1,247]

I'm sorry, this has absolutely no relevance to the topic... but I can't stop laughing at it and wanted to share it with everyone here...

ok, back to the topic at hand, he is very poor defensively, takes bad penalties and cannot step up in big games, probably one of the best trades Boston ever made...

Edited May 20, 2010 by stevkrause

[weGotTheCup89 41]

You mustn't have watched many of his games with much attention.

I hate Joe Thornton but he has been by far their best player since Round 1. He seemed to be the only player with an ounce of passion in him in the last game. You wanna point fingers?? Heatley and Marleau. They've been extra pathetic. But Joe Thornton has been much improved in these playoffs.

Seriously guys. You can't base an opinion solely on stats.

However way you spin it, at even strength, there have been 10 more goals against his team than scored for his team. I thought that this is what the (+/-) stat was for... to cut through the B.S. so you could say "Look, he scored 40 goals, but he is -20, something's wrong here"

[Doggy 130]

The point is, when the team needs him to take over and win a game or series, he is yet to prove he can and through the first 2 games against Chicago, he has just proven his choke status...

So, your contention is that because he can't single-handedly beat the Chicago Blackhawks, he's a choker. Them's some high standards.

The Sharks beat the Wings because their top line didn't have to do it all. No team wins a Cup with one line.

I also think Thornton has been their best player since the Avs series.

[stevkrause 1,247]

So, your contention is that because he can't single-handedly beat the Chicago Blackhawks, he's a choker. Them's some high standards.

The Sharks beat the Wings because their top line didn't have to do it all. No team wins a Cup with one line.

I also think Thornton has been their best player since the Avs series.

You're over simplifying my words, take over a game, does not mean single-handedly win a game - it means be an impact player every shift and affect the outcome of the game.

Hockey is a team game and you don't even win ONE game, let alone a Stanley Cup with one player or a line, but the true greats will put a team on their back and carry them to victory when needed (Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Yzerman, Messier, etc....)

[Rufio 29]

You're over simplifying my words, take over a game, does not mean single-handedly win a game - it means be an impact player every shift and affect the outcome of the game.

Hockey is a team game and you don't even win ONE game, let alone a Stanley Cup with one player or a line, but the true greats will put a team on their back and carry them to victory when needed (Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Yzerman, Messier, etc....)

Absolutely.

I certainly wouldn't put Joe Thornton in with the likes of Yzerman, Messier, Orr, Gretzky or Howe, but I hardly think that not being able to replicate the past performances of the greatest champions this sport has ever seen makes him a choker. It's not one or the other.

Thornton has been pathetic in the past. The last two rounds he has not. Despite falling short of Gretzky-esque domination, it's pretty clear he's been at very least one of their best, if not IMO their best player. I just think this thread is totally unwarranted, his stats are misleading.

BTW did anyone see the first Hawks goal in G2? See how easily Marleau was beaten on the breakaway attempt? He gave up on the play, went to the bench and they score. -1 for Joe, no impact on Marleau. Stats aren't everything! Marleau had no heart, his team paid.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Absolutely.

I certainly wouldn't put Joe Thornton in with the likes of Yzerman, Messier, Orr, Gretzky or Howe, but I hardly think that not being able to replicate the past performances of the greatest champions this sport has ever seen makes him a choker. It's not one or the other.

Thornton has been pathetic in the past. The last two rounds he has not. Despite falling short of Gretzky-esque domination, it's pretty clear he's been at very least one of their best, if not IMO their best player. I just think this thread is totally unwarranted, his stats are misleading.

BTW did anyone see the first Hawks goal in G2? See how easily Marleau was beaten on the breakaway attempt? He gave up on the play, went to the bench and they score. -1 for Joe, no impact on Marleau. Stats aren't everything! Marleau had no heart, his team paid.

My point is, those players elevated their game when needed to bring them championships and what made them champions - Someone can be +30 with 20 goals and 20 assists in rounds 1 and 2, but if you can't get past the conference finals and can't help your team win a cup... what good are you? He chokes on the biggest stage and that's where I think it is relevant... that is at least the point I'm getting at.

[Rufio 29]

My point is, those players elevated their game when needed to bring them championships and what made them champions - Someone can be +30 with 20 goals and 20 assists in rounds 1 and 2, but if you can't get past the conference finals and can't help your team win a cup... what good are you? He chokes on the biggest stage and that's where I think it is relevant... that is at least the point I'm getting at.

Datsyuk's never carried his team to a Cup. Is he a choker? Same with Giguere, what about him?

What about Crosby, Pronger, Lecavalier, Alfredsson?

Thornton has been their best player. That's not choking.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Datsyuk's never carried his team to a Cup. Is he a choker? Same with Giguere, what about him?

What about Crosby, Pronger, Lecavalier, Alfredsson?

Thornton has been their best player. That's not choking.

Best player UNTIL NOW - it's all moot and useless if you can't win the big prize... until he proves otherwise, he will be considered a choke...

Really? Pavel and Zetterberg didn't carry their team to a Stanley Cup in 08?!?

Zetterberg:

GP: 22 G:13 A:14 P:27 +16

Datsyuk

GP: 22 G:10 A:13 P:23 +13

Giguere didn't carry his team to a SCF against NJ when he won the Conn Smythe and they only lost because they couldn't score (keep in mind, this argument also doesn't REALLY apply to goalies, as they cannot score the goals, even though he backs up my argument)

and Pronger never led his team to a cup... what was it Anaheim did in 07?

07 SC Playoffs:

Pronger:

GP: 19 G:3 A:12 P:15 +10

even ****** Crosby last year did it...

you, if anything, helped prove my point... not yours....

Edited May 20, 2010 by stevkrause

[Original-Six 254]

L heatley O marleau L

[Rufio 29]

Best player UNTIL NOW - it's all moot and useless if you can't win the big prize... until he proves otherwise, he will be considered a choke...

Really? Pavel and Zetterberg didn't carry their team to a Stanley Cup in 08?!?

Zetterberg:

GP: 22 G:13 A:14 P:27 +16

Datsyuk

GP: 22 G:10 A:13 P:23 +13

Giguere didn't carry his team to a SCF against NJ when he won the Conn Smythe and they only lost because they couldn't score (keep in mind, this argument also doesn't REALLY apply to goalies, as they cannot score the goals, even though he backs up my argument)

and Pronger never led his team to a cup... what was it Anaheim did in 07?

07 SC Playoffs:

Pronger:

GP: 19 G:3 A:12 P:15 +10

even ****** Crosby last year did it...

you, if anything, helped prove my point... not yours....

But I thought a player had to 'carry his team'. Pronger, Crosby, Giguere and Datsyuk were all outshone by teammates when they won their Cups. Are they chokers?

What has Thornton done in these playoffs to warrant this claim he has underachieved?

I just think that being your team's best player whilst not replicating Messier is not underachieving. That's just me.

[ceebs 2]

You should have titled this by his more commonly known name "Big Joe Choke"

I prefer "No Show Joe" as he usually doesn't remember to show up come playoffs. Though it's not as fun making for of him when his team did beat us in 5 games.

[Swayze 81]

You mustn't have watched many of his games with much attention.

I hate Joe Thornton but he has been by far their best player since Round 1. He seemed to be the only player with an ounce of passion in him in the last game. You wanna point fingers?? Heatley and Marleau. They've been extra pathetic. But Joe Thornton has been much improved in these playoffs.

Seriously guys. You can't base an opinion solely on stats.

Oh, that guy who scored the only goals for San Jose last game? Yeah, you can blame it on him. Passion doesn't win cups, or half of this board would have rings.

troll ftl.

[Rufio 29]

Oh, that guy who scored the only goals for San Jose last game? Yeah, you can blame it on him. Passion doesn't win cups, or half of this board would have rings.

troll ftl.

Come on, seriously?

Did anyone watch the game? The first one was a beautiful pass from Thornton, and the second was a tap-in the crease. The guy was in the right spots, which is great, but he played soft. Again, I actually made a perfect example of how he cost his team in one instance.

[stevkrause 1,247]

But I thought a player had to 'carry his team'. Pronger, Crosby, Giguere and Datsyuk were all outshone by teammates when they won their Cups. Are they chokers?

What has Thornton done in these playoffs to warrant this claim he has underachieved?

I just think that being your team's best player whilst not replicating Messier is not underachieving. That's just me.

and ONCE AGAIN(ugh) "carry their team on their back" does NOT MEAN DO IT ALL...

Pavelski has been tearing it up for San Jose and Heatley and Boyle and PPG players... "carry a team on your back" means lift them, emotionally and physically with your play... it's not all about stats, and if he can't inspire them and score goals WHEN THEY MATTER, he is a choke...

I don't even know how I have to keep explaining this to you, I really could not have made my point any clearer... UNTIL HE WINS THE BIG PRIZE, THE EARLY ROUNDS DO NOT MATTER

[Frozen-Man 144]

and ONCE AGAIN(ugh) "carry their team on their back" does NOT MEAN DO IT ALL...

Pavelski has been tearing it up for San Jose and Heatley and Boyle and PPG players... "carry a team on your back" means lift them, emotionally and physically with your play... it's not all about stats, and if he can't inspire them and score goals WHEN THEY MATTER, he is a choke...

I don't even know how I have to keep explaining this to you, I really could not have made my point any clearer... UNTIL HE WINS THE BIG PRIZE, THE EARLY ROUNDS DO NOT MATTER

Visual example of carrying a team on your back:

[stevkrause 1,247]

Visual example of carrying a team on your back:

thank you!

[Rufio 29]

thank you!

Right. So Zetterberg's not a choke because he was the best player for a Cup-winner.

This is an honest question, because I'm trying to understand your logic. Does this mean that every other Red Wing player was a choke in your view?

Or...

Is it just every player that didn't win the Cup a choke? Is Ovechkin a choker? Sure, he lead his team with 5 goals and 5 assists, and carried his team, but not to victory. His teammates were awful, but because he didn't carry his team when it mattered, he's a choker, right?

[stevkrause 1,247]

Right. So Zetterberg's not a choke because he was the best player for a Cup-winner.

This is an honest question, because I'm trying to understand your logic. Does this mean that every other Red Wing player was a choke in your view?

Or...

Is it just every player that didn't win the Cup a choke? Is Ovechkin a choker? Sure, he lead his team with 5 goals and 5 assists, and carried his team, but not to victory. His teammates were awful, but because he didn't carry his team when it mattered, he's a choker, right?

So far, yes, Ovechkin has choked, because he has not come through when it mattered - I don't know why you can't grasp this - this isn't JUST about points, it's about the way you lead your team and the effort in the moments that it matters

and I know you're trying to be cute, but cut it - you know damn well that because one guys lifts his game and helps his team win, that doesn't "make every other player a choke"

Your best players need to be your best players, in the times it matters the most. period. I don't know how much clearer I can put that...