130 replies to this topic

[greenrebellion]

Niemi almost makes twice as much as Howard does. Kenny proves once again why he is the best GM in the game.

One could argue that Niemi is a better goalie and has proven himself in the playoffs making him worth the extra $1.6MM per year.

[ogreslayer]

One could argue that Niemi is a better goalie and has proven himself in the playoffs making him worth the extra $1.6MM per year.

And one could also make the argument that the 'Hawks won despite Niemi's performance and for a team like the Wings, signing Howard at the cheaper price is a much better deal because it allows them to spend that $1.6m elsewhere.

[greenrebellion]

And one could also make the argument that the 'Hawks won despite Niemi's performance and for a team like the Wings, signing Howard at the cheaper price is a much better deal because it allows them to spend that $1.6m elsewhere.

He won the cup and is putting up excellent numbers again this year on a Sharks team that has been pretty poor defensively until recently. Ya he started off weak, but has played lights out for the past two months.

I mean are we trying to argue that Niemi should make the same as Howard, because I think Niemi is clearly a better goaltender at this point (no that doesn't mean I'm saying Howard is bad) and its just a matter of degree.

Edit: Put another way, for the same price, would you rather have Howard or Niemi on the team for this years playoff run (ignore intangibles like locker room chemistry). I think most would take Niemi if they are honest with themselves.

Edited by greenrebellion, 01 March 2011 - 02:41 PM.

[HankthaTank]

He won the cup and is putting up excellent numbers again this year on a Sharks team that has been pretty poor defensively until recently. Ya he started off weak, but has played lights out for the past two months.

I mean are we trying to argue that Niemi should make the same as Howard, because I think Niemi is clearly a better goaltender at this point (no that doesn't mean I'm saying Howard is bad) and its just a matter of degree.

Edit: Put another way, for the same price, would you rather have Howard or Niemi on the team for this years playoff run (ignore intangibles like locker room chemistry). I think most would take Niemi if they are honest with themselves.

Niemi LATELY = Howie almost all of last year, stealing games.

How quickly everyone just forgets. Right now Niemi is the better goalie but an awful lot of goalies have stood on their head this year with better defenses in front of them. If the question you are posing is who do I want in net for us AT THE PRICE we got him for?

Jimmy Howard please.

[greenrebellion]

Niemi LATELY = Howie almost all of last year, stealing games.

How quickly everyone just forgets. Right now Niemi is the better goalie but an awful lot of goalies have stood on their head this year with better defenses in front of them. If the question you are posing is who do I want in net for us AT THE PRICE we got him for?

Jimmy Howard please.

Oh come on. How often have we seen a rookie phenom fall off a cliff and disappear never to be heard from again. So Howard had one great year. Meanwhile, Niemi had a good regular season last year, a great playoffs, and despite a slip early in the year (Stanley Cup hangover or whatever you want to call it) has rebounded and is now supporting a .919 save percentage despite the weak start and he’s on a team with defensive depth problems.

At $2.25MM you’d really rather take Howard who struggled in the playoffs over a guy who has been there, done that in the highest pressure situations and proven himself to be more consistent?

Sounds like I’m bashing Howard, but I’m not. I just think its funny how people think $2.25MM for Howard is a great signing, but Niemi at $3.8MM is horrible.

Not like Sharks have a bunch of options in goal either so they were kind of desperate but still in my eyes they got a fair price. I would’ve preferred a shorter term as I’ve mentioned in some other posts, but a shorter term probably means bigger cap hit.

[HankthaTank]

Oh come on. How often have we seen a rookie phenom fall off a cliff and disappear never to be heard from again. So Howard had one great year. Meanwhile, Niemi had a good regular season last year, a great playoffs, and despite a slip early in the year (Stanley Cup hangover or whatever you want to call it) has rebounded and is now supporting a .919 save percentage despite the weak start and he's on a team with defensive depth problems.

At $2.25MM you'd really rather take Howard who struggled in the playoffs over a guy who has been there, done that in the highest pressure situations and proven himself to be more consistent?

Sounds like I'm bashing Howard, but I'm not. I just think its funny how people think $2.25MM for Howard is a great signing, but Niemi at $3.8MM is horrible.

Not like Sharks have a bunch of options in goal either so they were kind of desperate but still in my eyes they got a fair price. I would've preferred a shorter term as I've mentioned in some other posts, but a shorter term probably means bigger cap hit.

See what kind of crap cap situation this puts them in for next year. Doesn't matter, it took an awful lot just for them to get him and he has been quite good so far but to be honest, what's to say he won't flame out and Jimmy will be just as brilliant in the coming months? Goalie is as unpredictable of a position in all of sports. You just never know what you are going to get.

[Doc Holliday]

Niemi LATELY = Howie almost all of last year, stealing games.

How quickly everyone just forgets. Right now Niemi is the better goalie but an awful lot of goalies have stood on their head this year with better defenses in front of them. If the question you are posing is who do I want in net for us AT THE PRICE we got him for?

Jimmy Howard please.

Howard has not been stealing games all year. He hasn't been stealing games hardly at all.

He hasn't been bad, but lets not overrate Howard here. Niemi won a cup with a stacked roster just like Osgood did twice, and I'm sure we would take Ozzie in his prime over Howard. Niemi is getting overpaid based on a season of performance but right now he is a better goaltender.

[HankthaTank]

Howard has not been stealing games all year. He hasn't been stealing games hardly at all.

I know what you thought I meant but...

Howie almost all of last year, stealing games.

He did in fact take us as far as we went last year. Got burnt out come playoffs time.

[greenrebellion]

See what kind of crap cap situation this puts them in for next year. Doesn't matter, it took an awful lot just for them to get him and he has been quite good so far but to be honest, what's to say he won't flame out and Jimmy will be just as brilliant in the coming months? Goalie is as unpredictable of a position in all of sports. You just never know what you are going to get.

I largely agree and personally like Holland's way of managing goalies, pretty much never committing large $ nor significant terms. There are downsides to that approach though in that we constantly take risks with unproven goalies come playoff time. See Legace and Howard as recent examples.

That said, there was no way Niemi was going to sign anywhere near $2.25MM given his "resume" so if the Sharks wanted him, that's what they had to pay and it doesn't seem too ridiculous of a contract to me.

[HankthaTank]

As it has been said.... getting this deal in before the playoffs is all for the best. If he is brilliant it's another magical signing by Kenny and if he doesn't, it is still a minimal cap hit and with some retiring or being released by the Wings in the near future we could still have around 10 mill to work with and a probably cap increase. WIN-WIN.

[Booster313]

Howard > Niemi all day long...

I don't like Niemi, I didn't like him last year and I don't like him this year.

[ogreslayer]

He won the cup and is putting up excellent numbers again this year on a Sharks team that has been pretty poor defensively until recently. Ya he started off weak, but has played lights out for the past two months.

I mean are we trying to argue that Niemi should make the same as Howard, because I think Niemi is clearly a better goaltender at this point (no that doesn't mean I'm saying Howard is bad) and its just a matter of degree.

Edit: Put another way, for the same price, would you rather have Howard or Niemi on the team for this years playoff run (ignore intangibles like locker room chemistry). I think most would take Niemi if they are honest with themselves.

Um, to answer that semi-question...no, that wasn't the point I was making at all. Given the approach to team building & cap management that the front office takes, Jimmy is simply the better value for the price & contract length the Wings have him for in my opinion. I wouldn't want Niemi locked in for 4 on this team at $3.8m per no more than I would want Howie locked in for 4 at anything above $3m at this point either.

And as to whether one would want Niemi for the same price as Howard for the playoffs...why not ask the same of Thomas, Lundqvist, Luongo, or Miller? Yeah, who wouldn't want one of those at the same price as Howie? Granted, I want a bj from Angelina Jolie but that ain't happening either.

[greenrebellion]

Um, to answer that semi-question...no, that wasn't the point I was making at all. Given the approach to team building & cap management that the front office takes, Jimmy is simply the better value for the price & contract length the Wings have him for in my opinion. I wouldn't want Niemi locked in for 4 on this team at $3.8m per no more than I would want Howie locked in for 4 at anything above $3m at this point either.

And as to whether one would want Niemi for the same price as Howard for the playoffs...why not ask the same of Thomas, Lundqvist, Luongo, or Miller? Yeah, who wouldn't want one of those at the same price as Howie? Granted, I want a bj from Angelina Jolie but that ain't happening either.

Well you gotta have a goalie, right? They could run with Nittymaki, they could sign a Dan Ellis type guy, but those don't always work out as evidenced this year. You could do worse than have Niemi signed for $3.8 million.

But anyway, I don't want to sidetrack this too far. I'm glad we have Howard for the next two years at least and I hope he's solid for this years playoff run.

[HankthaTank]

But anyway, I don't want to sidetrack this too far. I'm glad we have Howard for the next two years at least and I hope he's solid for this years playoff run.

And that is where it all lies right there. Career defining moment for Jimmy Howard in this playoffs potentially. We shall see how this pressure is dealt with and I am hoping I am really really wrong about my condescending opinions I have had of him at certain points this year.

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

I find this to be overpayment but whatever. It had to be done...I like Jimmy however I don't find him to be magical or anything. Like someone said wins are wins. And that's the most important stat imo...

[KrazyGangsta]

Howie = the new Ozzie.

Even when he wins, he loses.

That's because the team is winning more games for him then his winning games for the team.

Ozzie was probably in the same situation, all tho the lastt stanley cup win and the stanley cup appearance the following year the team was probably not carried by Ozzie but he stepped up and payed his best in his whole career. (Probably veteran maturity ... experience etc...)

I don't mind the Howard signing, it's not that long anyways. Two years is not that long, considering his low pay and age he could be easy to trade away in a worst case scenario. He has 3 years to prove the organization that he could eventually help this team win a stanley cup. If he does, he stays longer ... if not ... Good Bye Howard.

Give the kid a chance, he might surprise us with a cup ... (hopefully this year so lids could walk away a champ.)

[Buppy]

Oh come on. How often have we seen a rookie phenom fall off a cliff and disappear never to be heard from again. So Howard had one great year. Meanwhile, Niemi had a good regular season last year, a great playoffs, and despite a slip early in the year (Stanley Cup hangover or whatever you want to call it) has rebounded and is now supporting a .919 save percentage despite the weak start and he’s on a team with defensive depth problems.

At $2.25MM you’d really rather take Howard who struggled in the playoffs over a guy who has been there, done that in the highest pressure situations and proven himself to be more consistent?

Sounds like I’m bashing Howard, but I’m not. I just think its funny how people think $2.25MM for Howard is a great signing, but Niemi at $3.8MM is horrible.

Not like Sharks have a bunch of options in goal either so they were kind of desperate but still in my eyes they got a fair price. I would’ve preferred a shorter term as I’ve mentioned in some other posts, but a shorter term probably means bigger cap hit.

Great playoff? .910 sv%, 2.63 gaa
Struggled? .915 sv%, 2.75 gaa

Pretty similar stats for such disparate descriptions. Hell, that 'great playoff' isn't too far above Howie's current regular season numbers.

Stats are pretty similar the past two seasons too. Howie 68-27-13 (63% win, 69% point), .923 sv%, 2.5 gaa. Niemi 49-22-7 (62.8% win, 67.3% point), .922 sv%, 2.35 gaa. Similar age. Similar size.

Sharks are just buying at the wrong time. Or maybe the other way around and the Wings are buying at the right time while Jimmy is down a bit. Sharks are also paying a premium for the Hawks Cup win. Which is funny in a way since the Sharks got Niemi because the Hawks weren't willing/able to do that themselves.

[greenrebellion]

Great playoff? .910 sv%, 2.63 gaa
Struggled? .915 sv%, 2.75 gaa

Pretty similar stats for such disparate descriptions. Hell, that 'great playoff' isn't too far above Howie's current regular season numbers.

Stats are pretty similar the past two seasons too. Howie 68-27-13 (63% win, 69% point), .923 sv%, 2.5 gaa. Niemi 49-22-7 (62.8% win, 67.3% point), .922 sv%, 2.35 gaa. Similar age. Similar size.

Sharks are just buying at the wrong time. Or maybe the other way around and the Wings are buying at the right time while Jimmy is down a bit. Sharks are also paying a premium for the Hawks Cup win. Which is funny in a way since the Sharks got Niemi because the Hawks weren't willing/able to do that themselves.

His numbers through the first 3 rounds were stellar. The finals then became a run and gun offensive game with goalies on both sides putting up subpar stats.

[Crymson]

He won the cup and is putting up excellent numbers again this year on a Sharks team that has been pretty poor defensively until recently. Ya he started off weak, but has played lights out for the past two months.

I mean are we trying to argue that Niemi should make the same as Howard, because I think Niemi is clearly a better goaltender at this point (no that doesn't mean I'm saying Howard is bad) and its just a matter of degree.

Edit: Put another way, for the same price, would you rather have Howard or Niemi on the team for this years playoff run (ignore intangibles like locker room chemistry). I think most would take Niemi if they are honest with themselves.

His first few months were horrendous. His last two have been great. That's the story of his career so far.

His numbers through the first 3 rounds were stellar. The finals then became a run and gun offensive game with goalies on both sides putting up subpar stats.

He got lit up against Nashville.

It will never cease to amaze me how far supposed fans of this team will go to deprecate the team's own players.

[greenrebellion]

It will never cease to amaze me how far supposed fans of this team will go to deprecate the team's own players.

So by your logic, if I say Tim Thomas is better than Howard and deserves a bigger contract, then I'm deprecating Howard? There's a logic fail in there somewhere.

There's quite a bit of blind homerism on this board though. I mean it cracked me up how many people were saying Holland had some grand master scheme in the works during the Nabokov fiasco, that he wasn't just signing Nabokov to lose him in the waiver process and he was going to pull something out of his rear end.

Most of the fans on the sharks message boards love the Niemi signing, many here hate it, I'm just trying to provide some middle ground saying there was no way Niemi was going to sign for anywhere $2.2 million given his resume, so if the Sharks wanted him (and given the lack of goaltending depth they probably need him) they were going to have to make a reasonable offer which it appears they did. They can both be good signings, Holland isn't the only GM in the league that can sign a good contract.

Edited by greenrebellion, 01 March 2011 - 11:43 PM.