egroen 384 Report post Posted September 27, 2011 I agree with the Kurri as well. Funny thing about Messier, just because he guaranteed that the Rangers would come back in the playoffs when they fell 3-2 games to (the Devils?) and the team actually did it, now all of a sudden he is the greatest captain in the NHL to ever grace the Earth. Why? Because he said they were gonna come back and they won two games and then the Stanley Cup? What did he do in Vancouver to prove he was the greatest captain ever? uh....nothing. The 1990 Oilers team was still full of players that won 4 out of 5 years that it didn't really matter who the Captain was. I just don't get what makes he the greatest leader in the NHL ever and why he has a trophy named after him...The Messier Leadership Award? Please... I'll take Esa Tikkanen AND Jari Kurri over Messier as 2 of the 3 greatest oilers. Messier also "guaranteed" the Canucks would make the playoffs - but that one is not as remembered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted September 27, 2011 Because he was a whiny *****. Same reason Lemieux's not in the discussion. Both Boucher and Cook finished in the top ten in scoring almost every single season of their careers. Cook twice led the league in scoring, and Boucher had quite a few top-three finishes. Cook scored goals at just under 0.50 per game, in an era of very low scoring. His four best seasons were 33 goals in 44 games, 29 in 44, 30 in 44, 33 in 48. The idea of putting Messier over him is mind-boggling. Remember, we're not using Messier's whole career; just his Rangers years. Otherwise we'd have to rank Gordie Howe as the best WhalerCane ever, Gretzky as the best Oiler, King, Blue, Ranger, and if you go by places his number is retired everywhere else too (making it a top two list for most teams) plus we'd have Peter Forsberg and Paul Kariya on Nashville's list, Adam Oates on the Blues and Capitals, and Brett Hull on the Winnipeg/Phoenix and lists. It'd be like making a "top-3 defensemen ever per team" list, a Wings list could have perhaps either Lidstrom-Harvey-Fetisov or Lidstrom-Kelly-Goodfellow? Would be interesting. Let's see - for Wings defense I would have: Harvey Lidstrom Kelly Fetisov Chelios Park Coffey I do believe Gretzky is extremely underrated as a Captain - he may have not been the most vocal of leaders but he had one of the strongest work ethics of any player and 'always' brought it in big games. Literally the best playoff/tournament player in history and he won 4 Cups as a capatain. Yzerman, Lidstrom and Zetterberg are all more lead by example guys, like Gretzky. Potvin gets underrated as well... There are a lot of guys I rank ahead of Messier in terms of leadership. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted September 27, 2011 Let's see - for Wings defense I would have: Harvey Lidstrom Kelly Fetisov Chelios Park Coffey I do believe Gretzky is extremely underrated as a Captain - he may have not been the most vocal of leaders but he had one of the strongest work ethics of any player and 'always' brought it in big games. Literally the best playoff/tournament player in history and he won 4 Cups as a capatain. Yzerman, Lidstrom and Zetterberg are all more lead by example guys, like Gretzky. Potvin gets underrated as well... There are a lot of guys I rank ahead of Messier in terms of leadership. But he's supposed to be a whiny *****, so that means he's not a great captain in eva's mind. Whether he whined to the refs or not, he had all the characteristics you'd want in a captain and I listed them above. And I wouldn't compare him to Lemieux, since Mario was known as somewhat lazy early one in his career. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wingseroo 0 Report post Posted September 27, 2011 Let's see - for Wings defense I would have: Harvey Lidstrom Kelly Fetisov Chelios Park Coffey I do believe Gretzky is extremely underrated as a Captain - he may have not been the most vocal of leaders but he had one of the strongest work ethics of any player and 'always' brought it in big games. Literally the best playoff/tournament player in history and he won 4 Cups as a capatain. Yzerman, Lidstrom and Zetterberg are all more lead by example guys, like Gretzky. Potvin gets underrated as well... There are a lot of guys I rank ahead of Messier in terms of leadership. Vlady should be in that list of defensmen for the Wings... Tragedy aside he would have been one of the all-time best defensmen, and people sometimes forget he was the stopper on that first cup team not Lidstrom... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 Let's see - for Wings defense I would have: Harvey Lidstrom Kelly Fetisov Chelios Park Coffey I do believe Gretzky is extremely underrated as a Captain - he may have not been the most vocal of leaders but he had one of the strongest work ethics of any player and 'always' brought it in big games. Literally the best playoff/tournament player in history and he won 4 Cups as a capatain. Yzerman, Lidstrom and Zetterberg are all more lead by example guys, like Gretzky. Potvin gets underrated as well... There are a lot of guys I rank ahead of Messier in terms of leadership. No disrespect to Chelios, Coffey beats him out. If you take just prime, Coffey was far better than Chelios could dream of being. Sure, he dropped off after the mid 90s (he still managed a Norris in 1995 and was a #1 defensemen until the end of his career) but Chelios tapered off also. Chelios was a high end defenseman for much of his career, but he wasn't a Norris threat as often as Coffey was. Even though he played a longer career. It's like comparing Pat LaFontaine and Mike Modano. Patty La definitely was better at the peak. He also was at or near his peak longer. But Modano had the longer career, was better defensively, and was considered a star center for a large portion of his career. Although I might put Darren Veitch ahead of both... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 But he's supposed to be a whiny *****, so that means he's not a great captain in eva's mind. Whether he whined to the refs or not, he had all the characteristics you'd want in a captain and I listed them above. And I wouldn't compare him to Lemieux, since Mario was known as somewhat lazy early one in his career. I didn't say he wasn't a great captain. I said that he wasn't viewed as a great captain because he was a whiner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) Vlady should be in that list of defensmen for the Wings... Tragedy aside he would have been one of the all-time best defensmen, and people sometimes forget he was the stopper on that first cup team not Lidstrom... Vladdy is a 'what If' and I'll agree with you that he would have went on to have more Norris caliber seasons, but the fact is he did not - and I still take a prime Harvey/Lidstrom/Kelly/Fetisov/Chelios/Park/Coffey over Konstanstinov. Maybe Quackenbush, Pronovost, Stewart and Goodfellow as well. Detroit's history at defense is unbelievably strong. And just as a correction - it was Lidstrom whom Bowman matched against the Legion of Doom in 1997, and not Konstantinov. Surprising, but obviously it worked. Edited September 28, 2011 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 No disrespect to Chelios, Coffey beats him out. If you take just prime, Coffey was far better than Chelios could dream of being. Sure, he dropped off after the mid 90s (he still managed a Norris in 1995 and was a #1 defensemen until the end of his career) but Chelios tapered off also. Chelios was a high end defenseman for much of his career, but he wasn't a Norris threat as often as Coffey was. Even though he played a longer career. It's like comparing Pat LaFontaine and Mike Modano. Patty La definitely was better at the peak. He also was at or near his peak longer. But Modano had the longer career, was better defensively, and was considered a star center for a large portion of his career. Although I might put Darren Veitch ahead of both... If given the benefit of foresight, I take Chelios ahead of Coffey every time. Chelios was the best defensive defenseman in the world for a whille and still brought a high-end offensive game. Coffey was a sublimely unique offensive talent with a below average defensive game. I value defense from a defenseman more than offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 If given the benefit of foresight, I take Chelios ahead of Coffey every time. Chelios was the best defensive defenseman in the world for a whille and still brought a high-end offensive game. Coffey was a sublimely unique offensive talent with a below average defensive game. I value defense from a defenseman more than offense. This is where I call. Coffey wasn't below average defensively until late in his career. Coffey has three Norrises. No matter how well you do offensively, you have to be doing well defensively to win a Norris. Phil Housley and Mike Green have made that clear. As for Chelios being the best defensive defenseman in the world, what period was this? From the mid 80s into the early 90s, guys like Brad McCrimmon and Craig Ludwig were getting Norris votes based purely on their defense. Jamie Macoun, Mike Ramsey, Rod Langway, Ulf Samuelsson, Sylvain Lefebvre? He certainly wasn't the best as you move into the mid and late 90s. The best defenseman whose primary focus was defense? I can see that. But not the best defensive defenseman. It's like Draper winning the Selke. He wasn't the best defensive forward. He was the best forward who was defense-first, but he wasn't the best defensively. Even on his own team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 No disrespect to Chelios, Coffey beats him out. If you take just prime, Coffey was far better than Chelios could dream of being. Sure, he dropped off after the mid 90s (he still managed a Norris in 1995 and was a #1 defensemen until the end of his career) but Chelios tapered off also. Chelios was a high end defenseman for much of his career, but he wasn't a Norris threat as often as Coffey was. Even though he played a longer career. It's like comparing Pat LaFontaine and Mike Modano. Patty La definitely was better at the peak. He also was at or near his peak longer. But Modano had the longer career, was better defensively, and was considered a star center for a large portion of his career. Although I might put Darren Veitch ahead of both... Didn't you just say that you'd put Darren Veitch ahead of both Chelios and Coffey? I'm almost afraid to ask....but......why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 Didn't you just say that you'd put Darren Veitch ahead of both Chelios and Coffey? I'm almost afraid to ask....but......why? Are you serious? Are you actually asking me this question? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 Are you serious? Are you actually asking me this question? No, no I'm not.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted September 28, 2011 No, no I'm not.... Maybe I should have said Gord Kruppke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
