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A case for rebuilding

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#1 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:15 PM

With the departure of 3 of the 4 top defensemen on the team in the past two season there has been a real void left on the back end. Add to the aging forwards in the top 6 (Bert, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Sammy, Franzen all over 30 years old), the team has few options going forward. The first option is via trade and free agency acquire the pieces the wings are currently lacking (being a top 6 scoring winger and 2 top 4 d-men). The second option is the option I believe is the better way to address the systemic problems the wings have, and that's a short term rebuild.

The process of rebuilding is not a fun one to watch, but, is one that has a lot of upside that trades and free agents don't bring. The first would be with the current CBA having good young players is rewarded because of how the Entry Level Contracts (ELCs) are step up to work, they are very friendly to the cap, as opposed to how free agency is today where any player that isn't locked up long term and hits the market is grossly overpaid for their services. Next would be that the process of rebuilding would mean that the prospects that haven't had a chance to cut their teeth in the NHL would get a chance to come up and play at the top level and gain valuable experience, in past years this has not been the cause and some players have not survived the trail by fire of coming up without waiver exemptions (Quiency, Ericsson, Kindl). Third it there is a benefit because the Wings do have a very good (and underrated) farm system, they have a lot of great talent on forward, and a lot of intriguing young D-men. Other teams are aware of this, and any trade would cost the wings some of this hard won prospect depth. Finally, if the wings don't make the playoffs in this rebuilding mode they have two other benefits, first a top ten draft pick, which they haven't had in over a decade, and the ability to trade players like Cleary or Bertuzzi to a contender for more draft picks or prospects. The first part, the top ten draft pick in most drafts (and looking to be true in the 2013 draft) as well are usually players that either are able to come into the NHL the following season and compete at a high level or are only 1-2 years of AHL play away from that. This would be perfect for the wings because they have a youth movement coming that would be supplemented by being able to add more youth to it. The second part, being sellers at the deadline... well I am sure everyone can remember the last 3 season and the gross overpayments made for players at the end of February, imagine a draft where the Wings have 1, 2 or even 3 top 40 picks? This not only gives them an even better prospect pool, but also gives them pieces to trade for NHL ready talent without having to do as much damage to the prospect depth.

I know this is not what a lot of fans will want, and I really would love the wings to be a top contender for the cup next season, but, if I had to choose between one more run in the next 5 years, or taking a year or two where they rebuild and have another 20 years of success, well I'll take the latter everyday.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
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In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
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#2 JasonNewEra

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:18 PM

A lot of these guys you're talking about are in their prime. What makes you think they are over the hill to require a rebuild? Silly, and sounds like you felt that it was Suter and Parise or bust. That's far from the truth...

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#3 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:27 PM

A lot of these guys you're talking about are in their prime. What makes you think they are over the hill to require a rebuild? Silly, and sounds like you felt that it was Suter and Parise or bust. That's far from the truth...

I feel that the Wings will have to overpay in prospects and a certain roster player for any trade making the team weaker going into the future. Any trade that could be made to improve the defense will necessitate the moving of Flip+Smith/Jarnkrok+++++. Do the Wings sell their future for another shot? Or do they use their assets wisely and rebuild the team to be competitive for the long term?
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#4 number9

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:46 PM

Good lord, why is there such an allure to rebuilding? I swear some of you just can't stand not seeing Landeskog's, RNH's, Yakupov's, and other high profile overrated prospects in our system...you'd think the last 20 years of wings drafting would change that, but apparently not.

Why in gods name would we rebuild? we have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Howard, Kronwall, Helm, Franzen, and Filppula...that's 7 high caliber championship players. You don't rebuild when you have assets like that lol. There are teams with wayyyyy less than what we have who aren't rebuilding, why in the hell would we?

Oh, and did I also mention we already have an extremely deep pool of prospects? Smith, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Mrazek, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, Andersson, Ouellet, Pulkkinen, Tvrdon, Marchenko, Quine, Ferraro, Callahan, Frk, Athanasiou, Mckee, Paterson, Nestrasil, Dekeyster (most likely)....we need to tank to acquire prospects why?

Our D is tore up yes....but our forward lines are more than shored up, and our goaltending is shored up...we'll probably end up trading some of our many extra forwards for more d-men so chill man.

#5 Jesusberg

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:52 PM

Oh, and did I also mention we already have an extremely deep pool of prospects? Smith, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Mrazek, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, Andersson, Ouellet, Pulkkinen, Tvrdon, Marchenko, Quine, Ferraro, Callahan, Frk, Athanasiou, Mckee, Paterson, Nestrasil, Dekeyster (most likely)....we need to tank to acquire prospects why?


This. We could have a rough go of things for the next 2-3 years or so, but in that time a lot of these kids will grow into their roles. You'll see guys like Nyquist and Smith playing bigger roles, and we'll have a much better idea of where Tatar, Jurco and Jarnkrok will be in terms of their roles. Guys like Sheahan, Andersson and Callahan may develop into solid bottom 6 guys. Not to mention with a thin blueline, Ouellet and Sproul could see NHL time in a few seasons, instead of waiting in the AHL for 4 seasons.

I don't think we need a rebuild. I think the team could use a few veteran stop gaps right now, while our prospects come into their own and we get to see what kind of players they turn into.

I've always heard, "The Red Wings don't rebuild, they reload"... well this may just be a longer reload than us fans are used to. We may have to be patient for the first time in years ;)

Edited by Jesusberg, 06 July 2012 - 01:55 PM.


#6 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:58 PM

Good lord, why is there such an allure to rebuilding? I swear some of you just can't stand not seeing Landeskog's, RNH's, Yakupov's, and other high profile overrated prospects in our system...you'd think the last 20 years of wings drafting would change that, but apparently not.

Why in gods name would we rebuild? we have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Howard, Kronwall, Helm, Franzen, and Filppula...that's 7 high caliber championship players. You don't rebuild when you have assets like that lol. There are teams with wayyyyy less than what we have who aren't rebuilding, why in the hell would we?

Oh, and did I also mention we already have an extremely deep pool of prospects? Smith, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Mrazek, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, Andersson, Ouellet, Pulkkinen, Tvrdon, Marchenko, Quine, Ferraro, Callahan, Frk, Athanasiou, Mckee, Paterson, Nestrasil, Dekeyster (most likely)....we need to tank to acquire prospects why?

Our D is tore up yes....but our forward lines are more than shored up, and our goaltending is shored up...we'll probably end up trading some of our many extra forwards for more d-men so chill man.

Strike through all players I don't see ever playing one NHL game, bold those who are unlikely/unknown at this point, italics those who are 50-50 shots, underlined those who will more than likely be NHL level players (not necessarily stars). The wings have a good prospect pool, but to be a contender this season they WILL have to make a trade for a top pairing defenseman, look at all the players that are italics or underlined, 2-3 of them will be gone for Yandle or Jbo, plus Flippula. All of the sudden the prospect pool is a lot shallower than it was before. Not to mention if they make a run at Ryan or Nash. Now look at players like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, RNH, Stamoks, Doughty and do the math on production to contract amount over the first few season... they added immediate value to their teams and they didn't cost anything, not a huge contract, not a lopsided trade, and they all have bright futures in the NHL. Its not my favorite option being sellers at the deadline and not being in real cup contention, but, if it costs 1-2 season of mediocre play to ensure another decade of dominance, its a small price to pay.

Edited by Shaman464, 06 July 2012 - 02:02 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#7 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

Strike through all players I don't see ever playing one NHL game, bold those who are unlikely/unknown at this point, italics those who are 50-50 shots, underlined those who will more than likely be NHL level players (not necessarily stars). The wings have a good prospect pool, but to be a contender this season they WILL have to make a trade for a top pairing defenseman, look at all the players that are italics or underlined, 2-3 of them will be gone for Yandle or Jbo, plus Flippula. All of the sudden the prospect pool is a lot shallower than it was before. Not to mention if they make a run at Ryan or Nash. Now look at players like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, RNH, Stamoks, Doughty and do the math on production to contract amount over the first few season... they added immediate value to their teams and they didn't cost anything, not a huge contract, not a lopsided trade, and they all have bright futures in the NHL. Its not my favorite option being sellers at the deadline and not being in real cup contention, but, if it costs 1-2 season of mediocre play to ensure another decade of dominance, its a small price to pay.




andersson will be a nhl player

Edited by nyqvististhefuture, 06 July 2012 - 02:05 PM.


#8 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:10 PM

why is there talk of rebuilding????? we still got zetterberg,datsyuk,franzen,kronwall and filppula for what 5-8 yrs of good hockey at least and i know datsyuk is 34 and time will tell but i see him like a selanne type and still being a good player at 40-42 yrs of age

what the wings problem is they keep adding old veterans all the time !, they cant get rid of everybody and then put in 5-10 new bodies in a season they need to mix those guys in with the above mentioned players now! thats why i dont understand the bertuzzi resigning and samuelsson, were stacked now up front and theres talk of adding doan and semin

that means nyquist and brunner get sent down ,mursak and emmerton etc get dealt

samuelsson and bertuzzi shouldnt of been brought back and nyquist,brunner,tatar be given a chance , and even andersson whos 6'2 200+ pds could of been a good addition on the 4th line

at this point i wouldnt even be shocked if we resign holmstrom

#9 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:10 PM

andersson will be a nhl player


I see him as a career AHL player, especially if he stays in the Wing's system.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
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In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#10 Jesusberg

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:10 PM

Strike through all players I don't see ever playing one NHL game, bold those who are unlikely/unknown at this point, italics those who are 50-50 shots, underlined those who will more than likely be NHL level players (not necessarily stars). The wings have a good prospect pool, but to be a contender this season they WILL have to make a trade for a top pairing defenseman, look at all the players that are italics or underlined, 2-3 of them will be gone for Yandle or Jbo, plus Flippula.


Not to be a jerk, but Andersson's already played an NHL game. Five of 'em this past season, in fact.

And as I mentioned on the BC, Jarnkrok, Ouellet and Sproul aren't 50/50 players, in my mind. Jarnkrok's excelled every where, and kept getting better. Ouellet and Sproul stood out on teams that were supposed to struggle or did struggle mightily. I'm interested to see what Jurco does in an AHL capacity, as he's been on an offensive juggernaut with the SeaDogs the past few seasons.

Guys like Tvrdon and Pulu are 50/50 guys... but those four, I don't think so much.

Edited by Jesusberg, 06 July 2012 - 02:13 PM.


#11 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:14 PM

I see him as a career AHL player, especially if he stays in the Wing's system.


your wrong on that one

and andersson is swedish he wont stick around his whole career in the ahl hes here not because hes commited to being an nhl player and still 23 i highly doubt he will stick around at the ahl level instead of going back to sweden

that being said he will be an nhl player , he's got the size and frame to play and is a good 2 way player and back checks ... he will be a redwing in 2 yrs

#12 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:15 PM

why is there talk of rebuilding????? we still got zetterberg,datsyuk,franzen,kronwall and filppula for what 5-8 yrs of good hockey at least and i know datsyuk is 34 and time will tell but i see him like a selanne type and still being a good player at 40-42 yrs of age

what the wings problem is they keep adding old veterans all the time !, they cant get rid of everybody and then put in 5-10 new bodies in a season they need to mix those guys in with the above mentioned players now! thats why i dont understand the bertuzzi resigning and samuelsson, were stacked now up front and theres talk of adding doan and semin

that means nyquist and brunner get sent down ,mursak and emmerton etc get dealt

samuelsson and bertuzzi shouldnt of been brought back and nyquist,brunner,tatar be given a chance , and even andersson whos 6'2 200+ pds could of been a good addition on the 4th line

at this point i wouldnt even be shocked if we resign holmstrom

In the KHL maybe, there have been a lot of rumblings that Dats wants to finish his career there. And again, unless the defensive problems of the Wings are addressed this season they are not a real contender.. if they are around 8th in February, I would rather see them sell players like Cleary and Bertuzzi to other teams for draft picks than see them try to sell their draft picks/prospects and get bounced early anyway.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#13 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:23 PM

your wrong on that one

and andersson is swedish he wont stick around his whole career in the ahl hes here not because hes commited to being an nhl player and still 23 i highly doubt he will stick around at the ahl level instead of going back to sweden

that being said he will be an nhl player , he's got the size and frame to play and is a good 2 way player and back checks ... he will be a redwing in 2 yrs


I believe Andersson is out of options either this season or next, so he will either be a Wing in a year, or he will not be. With the glut of bottom 6 players and him being a fourth line kind of player, I don't see him cracking the line up as regular player

.

Not to be a jerk, but Andersson's already played an NHL game. Five of 'em this past season, in fact.

And as I mentioned on the BC, Jarnkrok, Ouellet and Sproul aren't 50/50 players, in my mind. Jarnkrok's excelled every where, and kept getting better. Ouellet and Sproul stood out on teams that were supposed to struggle or did struggle mightily. I'm interested to see what Jurco does in an AHL capacity, as he's been on an offensive juggernaut with the SeaDogs the past few seasons.

Guys like Tvrdon and Pulu are 50/50 guys... but those four, I don't think so much.


As I said in BC until a player makes the transition from SEL/SM-liiga, I don't count them as locks for the NHL. I think Jarnkrok is about 70% chance of making it, but still there are concerns. Ouellet and Sproul are both doing well, but again, I don't see them as locks yet, they could be if they both have another consistent season, but they are still young, and they are high risk high reward prospects. I hope they do develop, but, as we all know from players like Hat Trick **** Axelsson one should never count their eggs.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
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In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#14 number9

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:23 PM

Strike through all players I don't see ever playing one NHL game, bold those who are unlikely/unknown at this point, italics those who are 50-50 shots, underlined those who will more than likely be NHL level players (not necessarily stars). The wings have a good prospect pool, but to be a contender this season they WILL have to make a trade for a top pairing defenseman, look at all the players that are italics or underlined, 2-3 of them will be gone for Yandle or Jbo, plus Flippula. All of the sudden the prospect pool is a lot shallower than it was before. Not to mention if they make a run at Ryan or Nash. Now look at players like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, RNH, Stamoks, Doughty and do the math on production to contract amount over the first few season... they added immediate value to their teams and they didn't cost anything, not a huge contract, not a lopsided trade, and they all have bright futures in the NHL. Its not my favorite option being sellers at the deadline and not being in real cup contention, but, if it costs 1-2 season of mediocre play to ensure another decade of dominance, its a small price to pay.


Okkkk well you struck through Andersson who has already played NHL games lol and will likely be a legit bottom sixer one day. I also would not have struck out Dekeyster....There's a reason the wings are so interested in him. I'd give Jurco and Jarnkrok more than a 50/50 chance, but not a certainty of course. Other than that though I agree with your assessment.

News flash: a big trade for Nash/Ryan/Yandle is not coming. Holland doesn't trade, especially not big splash trades, and especially not lopsided trades. That's all just wishful thinking by everyone on this forum. What did Holland want this offseason anyway?
A Scorer = Brunner
Scoring depth = Sammy
Bottom 6 grit = Tootoo
Replacement for Stewie = Quincey
A backup goalie = Gustavsson
He got everything he wanted except the replacement for Lids (Suter). We have a plethora of forwards, most of which are bottom 6ers, So what's likely going to happen is Holland dumps some 2 or 3 bottom 6 guys for another D-man that can shoulder the Lids load with Kindl and Smith. For pete sake Smith is NHL ready so it could be Holland's plan to give him a full time spot and then make a trade for another D-man at the deadline if need be.

Also 1-2 seasons of mediocre play is not a rebuild. That's a retooling/reloading and the wings won't do that by selling...That will be done by bringing up our own young talent. There's no reason to think we will get a Crosby/Ovi/Doughty by selling and tanking either.

#15 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:29 PM

As long as there are these 3 guys on our team, I think there names are like Pavel, Henrik, and Jimmy, Yea no way you can rebuild when you have three stars like that on your team. This thread is complete blasphemy!

#16 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

Okkkk well you struck through Andersson who has already played NHL games lol and will likely be a legit bottom sixer one day. I also would not have struck out Dekeyster....There's a reason the wings are so interested in him. I'd give Jurco and Jarnkrok more than a 50/50 chance, but not a certainty of course. Other than that though I agree with your assessment.

News flash: a big trade for Nash/Ryan/Yandle is not coming. Holland doesn't trade, especially not big splash trades, and especially not lopsided trades. That's all just wishful thinking by everyone on this forum. What did Holland want this offseason anyway?
A Scorer = Brunner
Scoring depth = Sammy
Bottom 6 grit = Tootoo
Replacement for Stewie = Quincey
A backup goalie = Gustavsson
He got everything he wanted except the replacement for Lids (Suter). We have a plethora of forwards, most of which are bottom 6ers, So what's likely going to happen is Holland dumps some 2 or 3 bottom 6 guys for another D-man that can shoulder the Lids load with Kindl and Smith. For pete sake Smith is NHL ready so it could be Holland's plan to give him a full time spot and then make a trade for another D-man at the deadline if need be.

Also 1-2 seasons of mediocre play is not a rebuild. That's a retooling/reloading and the wings won't do that by selling...That will be done by bringing up our own young talent. There's no reason to think we will get a Crosby/Ovi/Doughty by selling and tanking either.

I disagree that Quincey replaces Stuart... not unless Q has a huge bounce back season, but I will wait and see on that. As I said about Andersson, I do believe hes out of options soon and with so many bottom 6 guys on the team I don't see him cracking the line up with the Wings, and with this skill set, I could see him being a Hayder type player, plays a few games with a lot of teams but settles in SEL/AHL for the majority of his career. As for Brunner I really have reservations, its going to be trial by fire for him and he will have a lot of pressure on him... but all the players mention don't make up for the loss of Hudler and Lidstrom. Say what you will about Hudler, 25 goals are hard to replace. And the glaring hole, the gorilla in the room, the Wings defense is suspect. So again I will say this: this is not a Pittsburgh/Edmonton level '5 years of suck' rebuild, this is a 1-2 year rebuild on the fly idea. And to say this again, I'd rather have the Wings if they are 7-10th in the standing sell players like Bertuzzi/Cleary/etc for prospects and picks than try to overpay for a rental and still get bounced. I'd also not want to send Filpulla+Jurco+Jarnkrok+picks (conservatively) for Yandle or Jbo.

Edited by Shaman464, 06 July 2012 - 02:37 PM.

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#17 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

what would make you happy??? ship datsyuk,zetterberg,franzen,kronwall,andersson and other prospects and finish dead last like the oilers did for 5 yrs?

you make it sound like were the calgary flames with all old players and no promising prospects in our system

Edited by nyqvististhefuture, 06 July 2012 - 02:37 PM.


#18 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

what would make you happy??? ship datsyuk,zetterberg,franzen,kronwall,andersson and other prospects and finish dead last like the oilers did for 5 yrs?

you make it sound like were the calgary flames with all old players and no promising prospects in our system

Have you read anything I said? Your strawman isn't even a good one. I am really high on the prospects and I am not saying they shouldn't try, but I am saying that given the options of overpaying for Yandle or Jbo OR giving the young players a chance and not making the playoffs for a season and reaping the benefits from that, I'd take the latter over the former right now.
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Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#19 number9

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:48 PM

I disagree that Quincey replaces Stuart... not unless Q has a huge bounce back season, but I will wait and see on that. As I said about Andersson, I do believe hes out of options soon and with so many bottom 6 guys on the team I don't see him cracking the line up with the Wings, and with this skill set, I could see him being a Hayder type player, plays a few games with a lot of teams but settles in SEL/AHL for the majority of his career. As for Brunner I really have reservations, its going to be trial by fire for him and he will have a lot of pressure on him... but all the players mention don't make up for the loss of Hudler and Lidstrom. Say what you will about Hudler, 25 goals are hard to replace. And the glaring hole, the gorilla in the room, the Wings defense is suspect. So again I will say this: this is not a Pittsburgh/Edmonton level '5 years of suck' rebuild, this is a 1-2 year rebuild on the fly idea. And to say this again, I'd rather have the Wings if they are 7-10th in the standing sell players like Bertuzzi/Cleary/etc for prospects and picks than try to overpay for a rental and still get bounced. I'd also not want to send Filpulla+Jurco+Jarnkrok+picks (conservatively) for Yandle or Jbo.


Holland already said the reason he got Q was to replace Stewie....He doesn't have the shut-down capabilities of Stuart, but he's decent defensively, got more offensive talent than Stuart, he's younger, and he's got the snarl that Stuart was losing...For pete sake he comes to a new team and has a poor first 18 games with us and everyone thinks he sucks all of the sudden. He'll be fine. He's solidified himself as an NHL #4 D-man.

You are the first person I've ever heard who thinks Andersson is a career AHLer or European club player...All reports suggest you're wrong. And we will be dumping bottom 6ers...we have too...we have way too many roster forwards right now and most are bottom 6ers. But still Andersson probably has one more year of AHL to go.

We'll see what Brunner's got, reserving judgement on him for now. He's a bargain so if he doesn't work out oh well, we always have Nyquist too. You know who is overrated though? Fire-power Hudler

#20 Shaman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:55 PM

Holland already said the reason he got Q was to replace Stewie....He doesn't have the shut-down capabilities of Stuart, but he's decent defensively, got more offensive talent than Stuart, he's younger, and he's got the snarl that Stuart was losing...For pete sake he comes to a new team and has a poor first 18 games with us and everyone thinks he sucks all of the sudden. He'll be fine. He's solidified himself as an NHL #4 D-man.

You are the first person I've ever heard who thinks Andersson is a career AHLer or European club player...All reports suggest you're wrong. And we will be dumping bottom 6ers...we have too...we have way too many roster forwards right now and most are bottom 6ers. But still Andersson probably has one more year of AHL to go.

We'll see what Brunner's got, reserving judgement on him for now. He's a bargain so if he doesn't work out oh well, we always have Nyquist too. You know who is overrated though? Fire-power Hudler

Its not Hudler that I care we lost, its the 25 goals on a team that has regressed defensively I care about. Anyway, I have never seen one report that said Andersson is a lock for the NHL, I have seen MANY that call him a character guy, a career 4th liner, and other things to this effect. Knowing how the NHL works, and the turn over on 4th line players, to say that a 4th liner could end up being a depth guy/AHL player is not a stretch.

Next Q isn't terrible, but the Wings are hurting for shut down defensemen not scoring defensemen. SO as I said, unless he has a huge bounce back year, I don't think its fair to say Q is a replacement for Stuart. He has abit of snarl, but it I would say him and Ericsson have more in common than him and Stuart.

Finally, unless you can give evidence that the team as it stands now is not a border playoff team, and that I'm missing something please address my points about not overpaying in trade for Yandle/Jbo and not overpaying at the deadline. This thread was about not selling the farm in trade and eating a season where the wings may not hit 100 points and may struggle to make the playoffs, not about blowing up the team and tanking for the first overall.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt





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