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Guest irishock

Top 20 most valuable Red Wings players since 2002

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Why does that matter? The Red Wings still win all four without him.

I'm not trying to diminish what Maltby did here, but he basically agitated and killed penalties. It should also be noted I didn't include Hudler on my list either, though he would have made it ahead of Maltby.

For all of you idiots who think Hudler could EVER replace what Maltby meant to this team....

Cleary doesn't come near Maltby either! Show me Hudler have a MVP shift like this and I will drink the kool aid. Oh wait, Hudler would never have a shift like this...

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Hudler obviously wasn't good defensively but he was still a 2nd line calibre player while Maltby was always Drape's sidekick.

In this league a scoring line guy is always more valuable than a grind line guy imo.

That's easy to flip: imagine Maltby trying to score 25 goals in a top-six role.

TWICE since 2002 Kirk Maltby has scored 14 goals amongst 37 and 33 points respectively as a 4th line grinder! We've all seen what Hudler can do on a 4th line...crap. Give me 6 guys that can put in 14 goals and 35 points from the bottom 6 PLUS have the defensive ability of Maltby over anything Hudler hsa done or still does in his career...

you guys are smoking crack.

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A differing opinion makes us idiots? You bash Hudler at every chance, so of course you are going to feel Maltby (or anyone) was more valuable. I recall Hudler scoring a huge goal in Game 4 of the 2008 SCF.

Cleary is definitely more valuable than Maltby too. He does everything Maltby did and can play on a scoring line too. Cleary has been terrific in the playoffs for the Red Wings. Again, besides killing penalties and taking them, what was so great about Kirk Maltby?

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A differing opinion makes us idiots? You bash Hudler at every chance, so of course you are going to feel Maltby (or anyone) was more valuable. I recall Hudler scoring a huge goal in Game 4 of the 2008 SCF.

Cleary is definitely more valuable than Maltby too. He does everything Maltby did and can play on a scoring line too. Cleary has been terrific in the playoffs for the Red Wings. Again, besides killing penalties and taking them, what was so great about Kirk Maltby?

Cleary is no better than a 3rd liner. He is very valuable on this team on the 3rd line, but given 2nd or 1st line minutes he sucks. He has proven that the last couple of seasons. He was stinking it up all last year until Babcock put him on the 3rd line with Helm. I know he is in your sig and you have a huge crush on him and he is your fav, but he doesn't hold a candle to Malbty's importance to this team when he played. Hudler should not even be mentioned in this thread, thats how important he was to this team...

Whats next, Datsyuk is indeed VERY important to this team, but are you going to tell us all that he is more valuable than Fedorov was? That is what you are saying about Cleary, that he is just as valuable as Maltby ever was and that is bullcrud. Again....Hudler isn't, wasn't or (Thank God) will never be as valuable Red Wing player!

Edited by LeftWinger

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Cleary is no better than a 3rd liner. He is very valuable on this team on the 3rd line, but given 2nd or 1st line minutes he sucks. He has proven that the last couple of seasons. He was stinking it up all last year until Babcock put him on the 3rd line with Helm. I know he is in your sig and you have a huge crush on him and he is your fav, but he doesn't hold a candle to Malbty's importance to this team when he played. Hudler should not even be mentioned in this thread, thats how important he was to this team...

Whats next, Datsyuk is indeed VERY important to this team, but are you going to tell us all that he is more valuable than Fedorov was? That is what you are saying about Cleary, that he is just as valuable as Maltby ever was and that is bullcrud. Again....Hudler isn't, wasn't or (Thank God) will never be as valuable Red Wing player!

Cleary was playing on one leg last year. I'm not going to dispute he's ideally a third liner, but your claim that he "sucks" up on a scoring line is absurd and false. Cleary scored 26 goals two seasons ago (second on the team) and has two other 20-goal seasons in Detroit. He had nine goals and 15 points during the 2009 playoffs playing with Zetterberg and Franzen mostly. Could -- or better yet, did -- Maltby ever do any of that? This is also keeping in mind Cleary is excellent defensively, kills penalties and works his tail off every shift.

My "crush" has nothing to do with my judgment Cleary has been more valuable than Kirk Maltby. Besides one shift of Maltby and your hatred of Hudler, what exactly is your basis here?

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Cleary was playing on one leg last year. I'm not going to dispute he's ideally a third liner, but your claim that he "sucks" up on a scoring line is absurd and false. Cleary scored 26 goals two seasons ago (second on the team) and has two other 20-goal seasons in Detroit. He had nine goals and 15 points during the 2009 playoffs playing with Zetterberg and Franzen mostly. Could -- or better yet, did -- Maltby ever do any of that? This is also keeping in mind Cleary is excellent defensively, kills penalties and works his tail off every shift.

My "crush" has nothing to do with my judgment Cleary has been more valuable than Kirk Maltby. Besides one shift of Maltby and your hatred of Hudler, what exactly is your basis here?

I am not disputing that Cleary has value on this team, he does, as a third line player. Kirk Maltby was for the most part a 4th line player his entire career here, but on most nights, outside of the #1 line, the line of Maltby/Draper/Lapointe(Kocur/McCarty) was the best and most consistant on the Wings and around the NHL at what their roles were. Cleary is a fine role player, but he just isn't as valuable as Maltby was to this team. I guess you and I are just two different era's of Red Wings fans, so when Dan Cleary has played in over 1000 hard nosed, grinding bottom 6, get dirty games, we will revisit this debate and then this will be answered.

But Hudler is in NO WAY more valuable than 90% of the players that played on this team from 02' up until last year. He is one dimensional, does not fight for the puck in the corner or in front of the net. He doesn't follow the play after he takes a shot on net, he leans into a slapshot and if it doesn't go in, he is already peeling back away from the play. He held Ken Holland and the Wings hostage when he refused a $3.5M contract and filed for arbitration only to get awarded a $2.8M contract then bolt to Russia after thumbing his nose to the Wings organization. He thougth he was bigger than the organization because he tallied 57 points? REALLY? This team has no room for players like that and I am more than happy to see him leave. This is also why Franzen is crap. He cannot stay motivated and gts bored during the season? You either give 100% or take a hike. Kirk Maltby, Darren Helm, Kris Draper, these guys never made the all-star dollars, but dollar for dollar they out-perform(ed) and are 100X more valuable to the success of this team than Hudler and Franzen ever were or ever will be...

Edited by LeftWinger

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I cannot believe nobody put Fedorov or CuJo on their lists....Hudler doen't belong ANYWHERE on that list!

Fedorov lead the team in points with 83 in that one season, Hudler has 127 in SEVEN seasons...

I mention CuJo because he did win 34 games and even if they did get swept in the first round, he still only had a 2.08 GAA for the playoffs. If the Wings cannot score more than 2 goals a game, they usually do not win...also how valuable was Manny during the whole Cujo/Hasek debacle? 23 wins followed the next year by 37 (too bad he did choke in the playoffs...)

All three of these guys should make that list above Hudler and with the exception of one magical playoff year, Franzine doesn't deserve to be ranked that high, he is WELL below the MVP status of Filppula!

No Maltby? So Hudler was more valuable than Maltby? Hopefully this was an oversight...

Actually it was...would never have had Hudler over Malts. I debated about Federov...he might be on there but if it's only since 2002, then his ranking is just based on that year. And honestly, I think Shanahan, Hasek, Lidstrom, Hull, and Yzerman meant much more to that run.

Completely disagree about Franzen. '08 might not have happened without Franzen and I believe the '08 team was the most proficient hockey team I've ever seen play. You could argue we might have played in four less playoff series from '08 on if we did t have him. Filppula has been a 3rd line underachiever until last year.

Edited by achildr1

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1. Pavel Datsyuk

2. Henrik Zetterberg

3. Jimmy Howard

4. Nick Lidstrom

5. Johan Franzen

6. Dan Cleary

7. Brendan Shanahan

8. Chris Osgood

9. Valtteri FIlppula

10. Steve Yzerman

11. Niklas Kronwall

12. Mikael Samuelsson

13. Brett Hull

14. Jiri Hudler

15. Robert Lang

16. Brian Rafalski

17. Brad Stuart

18. Tomas Holmstrom

19. Mathieu Schneider

20. Dominik Hasek

Edited by Hockeytown0001

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1. Pavel Datsyuk

2. Henrik Zetterberg

3. Jimmy Howard

4. Nick Lidstrom

5. Johan Franzen

6. Dan Cleary

7. Brendan Shanahan

8. Chris Osgood

9. Valtteri FIlppula

10. Steve Yzerman

11. Niklas Kronwall

12. Mikael Samuelsson

13. Brett Hull

14. Jiri Hudler

15. Robert Lang

16. Brian Rafalski

17. Brad Stuart

18. Tomas Holmstrom

19. Mathieu Schneider

20. Dominik Hasek

Sorry, I just don't get the Howard over Osgood rank. Osgood won you a Cup and was on the brink of another. BOTH of those finals he was a SERIOUS Conn Smythe candidate, in fact, if not for Zetterbergs MVP shift when the Wings were down 5 on 3, Osgood would have (and I believe still should have) won it. If the Wings could have mustered a couple more goals in either games 5 or 6 (or not been screwed by Bettman early in the series) Osgood would have won it in 2009 as well...

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I think a lot of the rankings are up for debate except number 1.

If we're talking about since 2002, I can't think of an argument that would put any player over Nick Lidstrom (especially considering he won 6 Norris trophies during that span).

Not even for Downey?

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Sorry, I just don't get the Howard over Osgood rank. Osgood won you a Cup and was on the brink of another. BOTH of those finals he was a SERIOUS Conn Smythe candidate, in fact, if not for Zetterbergs MVP shift when the Wings were down 5 on 3, Osgood would have (and I believe still should have) won it. If the Wings could have mustered a couple more goals in either games 5 or 6 (or not been screwed by Bettman early in the series) Osgood would have won it in 2009 as well...

Now that I think about it, I would probably agree with what you're saying. I would probably put Ozzie a little further ahead in the list, but perhaps neck and neck with Howard. The only reason being, Osgood's career is over, and Howard's positioned himself to be Detroit's goaltender for the next 10+ years, potentially.

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Guest The Axe

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Hockeytown0001" data-cid="2337070" data-time="1356846307"><p>

Now that I think about it, I would probably agree with what you're saying. I would probably put Ozzie a little further ahead in the list, but perhaps neck and neck with Howard. The only reason being, Osgood's career is over, and Howard's positioned himself to be Detroit's goaltender for the next 10+ years, potentially. </p></blockquote>

If Howard is here for 10 more years, Id be surprised. We need a better goalie.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Hockeytown0001" data-cid="2337070" data-time="1356846307"><p>

Now that I think about it, I would probably agree with what you're saying. I would probably put Ozzie a little further ahead in the list, but perhaps neck and neck with Howard. The only reason being, Osgood's career is over, and Howard's positioned himself to be Detroit's goaltender for the next 10+ years, potentially. </p></blockquote>

If Howard is here for 10 more years, Id be surprised. We need a better goalie.

Howard's been groomed to be Detroit's long-term starter. Unless you could suggest a better option via trade or free agency, I'm not sure what your surprise is from. I would be surprised if Howard isn't here for the next several seasons.

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Guest Johnz96
you can choose to do it by value over a long period of time (Franzen would be > Hossa, etc.) or value no matter how long the duration (Hull would be > Holmstrom, etc.)

I'll go

1.Lidstrom

2.Datsyuk

3.Zetterberg

4.Hasek

5.Hossa

6.Shanahan

7.Hull

8.Franzen

9.Yzerman

10.Holmstrom

11.Rafalski

12.Kronwall

13.Filppula

14.Cleary

15.Draper

16.Stuart

17.Bertuzzi

18.Schneider

19.Samuelsson

20.Lang

Actually, yeah Hossa really shouldn't make the list. I think talent alone he's top 5 but his playoff disappearance really changed everyone's perception of him. Probably take him out of the list and put Hudler into top 20.

Hossa was great until he got injured

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Guest Johnz96

1.Lidstrom
2.Datsyuk
3.Zetterberg
4.Osgood
5.Franzen
6.Kronwall
7.Filppula
8.Rafalski
9.Holmstrom
10.Yzerman (I went since 02 as the title suggests, Yzerman didn't do much after 02 (lockout, one good leg) but I think he has been a great influence on Datsyuk and Zetterberg and they might not have been as great as they are without his mentoring)
11.Hossa
12.Cleary
13.Draper
14.Helm
15.Stuart
16.Howard
17.Hudler
18.Maltby
19.Ericsson

20.Samuelsson

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I'll try ranking them by overall value. Otherwise it may devolve into season vs season or something like that. And I guess this depends on the relative definition of value to the Wings. Championships, winning seasons, stats, etc.

20. Hull

19. Helm

18. Howard

17. Maltby

16. Cleary

15. McCarty

14. Franzen/Stuart (couldn't decide)

13. Osgood

12. Kronwall

11. Hasek

10. Rafalski

9. Filppula

8. Chelios

7. Yzerman

6. Shanahan

5. Draper

4. Holmstrom

3. Zetterberg

2. Datsyuk

1. Lidstrom

Beyond the top 3 or 4 this list might change if I put more thought into it but for the moment this is what I think. This could stir up a lot of debate since like I said everyone will have a different definition of valuable over 10 years. Even I had a tough time deciding for example if something like 4 great years was on par with 10 good years. It's tough and makes you appreciate how absolutely stacked we've been.

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