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Holland looking around

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#61 DSM

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:01 PM

The other thing to keep in mind, and I just started doing the "maths" on this stuff, but there will be teams that are going to need to dump salary to stay competitive while getting cap compliant when next year's cap max goes down.

Which means a lot of teams are going to be making trades at the deadline... and come July 1st (or whenever Free Agency starts this upcoming off season

 


 

A lot of the teams that need to get cap compliant for next season will wait till between the draft and July 1st, unless they are well out of the playoff race.



#62 Richdg

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:44 PM

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  • I agree with everything but making Datsyuk available.  He wants to return to Russia soon, so we may as well get whatever production he has left out of him.  He's still an elite player.  It's not like he's steadily declining.  I would only move a big name if it means we're getting a big name in return.  We can't just sell off parts.  The majority of the fanbase will burn the city to the ground if they commit to a rebuild.  Too much talent yet.

     

Lets just pretend for a minute. datsyuk finishes his contract and then retires. What do we get? Nothing. is this team, as it is presntly constructed going to win a SC before then? No. If you set the emotion aside, hard to do, the smart thing is to move him and get 2-3 guys just breaking into the league, that will be here for the enxt 10 years. It is the emotional attachment to former greats that dooms every dynansty. Pick your sport, dosn't matter. Cowboys and Steeler in the 70's 49ers in the 80's, islanders in the late 70's, Oilers in the 80, lakers and celtics in the 80's, on and on and on. yes it is hard to move guys that did so much for your organization. They got you those championships. But if they are not going to be part of the next one, the smart move is to move them. But far to often the heart over rules the brain, and that is when teams fall apart.



#63 Richdg

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

Maybe just it makes too much sense? The guy has nothing left to prove here, he is playing for an organization in decline/rebuild mode and would love to retire in Russia, he will be 37 when his contract is up, so do the math here..

 

I agree with posters, saying that Holland has to be more aggressive now but keep in mind guys like Reilly are going to command a big prize and I highly doubt the Avalanche would deal him to this team. Yannick Weber would be nice but he is not a #1 defender, so sadly there aren't as many options as people like to think.

 

At some point in the not so distant future Holland has to hit 1 - 2 homeruns, otherwhise this team might be looking at another streak but not a nice on.e

No Weber isn't a #1. But he would be better than all but Kronwall and maybe E, out of our current rotation. Also, he is only 24. 5-11/200 RH shot, good for 30ish points per year over a full 82 game season. A clear upgrade over White our only other RH Dman. pair him up with a strong stay at home LH Dman and it would be  a good second pair. Lashoff/Weber or Ericsson/Weber.

Yes getting a true #1 D or top flight C would be great. But lets be honest, our whole roster needs to be rebuilt.



#64 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:23 PM

Lets just pretend for a minute. datsyuk finishes his contract and then retires. What do we get? Nothing. is this team, as it is presntly constructed going to win a SC before then? No. If you set the emotion aside, hard to do, the smart thing is to move him and get 2-3 guys just breaking into the league, that will be here for the enxt 10 years. It is the emotional attachment to former greats that dooms every dynansty. Pick your sport, dosn't matter. Cowboys and Steeler in the 70's 49ers in the 80's, islanders in the late 70's, Oilers in the 80, lakers and celtics in the 80's, on and on and on. yes it is hard to move guys that did so much for your organization. They got you those championships. But if they are not going to be part of the next one, the smart move is to move them. But far to often the heart over rules the brain, and that is when teams fall apart.

I would agree if Datsyuk were starting to fall off.  Then it might be time to consider it.  But, he's not.  He's still putting up huge points, playing solid defensively, and creating opportunities for everyone.  That goal against Nashville proves he's still every bit the player he always was.  We just can't part with him right now.  Trade Datsyuk and the fanbase will call for Holland's head on a spit.  Throw in Illich's, too.  You can't trade this guy.  This season is not over.  We don't know what we would get for him.  What happens if our return for him fails epicly?  Then what?  He spends the last years of his career contributing excellently as he always has and we're STILL in trouble.  I'd rather have him here to play his game and mentor our younger talent.  That's another point.  He means more than just what is seen on the ice.  Personally, I would want EVERY ONE of my forwards learning from Datsyuk.  This is a guy you want to be a part of your organization up until his final second and beyond.  This is a guy I want scouting and coaching young talent.  This is a guy I want around my young players.  We shouldn't attach ourselves to our stars and shut our eyes to possibility, but we can't be pessimistic and defeatist, either.  No franchise that has that attitude has ever won anything.  There is still talent on this team and Pav is a huge part of that.  His value is just too great to this franchise playing here than it is away from it.  I say that this young talent will need coaching and a role model.  Datsyuk is the perfect choice.


Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 22 February 2013 - 11:24 PM.

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#65 Majsheppard

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:54 AM

Anyone have a problem with the fact that 3 of the 6 players that are worthy of being moved off of the team have NTCs? 

 

I am not very happy with this situation. 


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This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#66 DSM

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

Anyone have a problem with the fact that 3 of the 6 players that are worthy of being moved off of the team have NTCs? 

 

I am not very happy with this situation. 

 

I don't have a problem with it. :dntknw:



#67 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:21 AM

Anyone have a problem with the fact that 3 of the 6 players that are worthy of being moved off of the team have NTCs? 
 
I am not very happy with this situation. 


We need to add without subtracting. Dealing for talent while losing talent doesn't help us. We're right back where we started.

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#68 e_prime

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:21 PM

Anyone have a problem with the fact that 3 of the 6 players that are worthy of being moved off of the team have NTCs? 

 

I am not very happy with this situation. 

I'm guessing you mean:  Sammy... Cleary... Bert... 

 

Sammy is the only one with a NTC.

Cleary's expired at the end of last season.

Bert's is modified.

 

Kronwall and Sammy are the only Wings players that currently have non-modified NTC...

I'm sure you realize that NTCs can be waived.

I don't view NTCs as handcuffing this team. 

These veteran guys that sign here with a NTC appreciate that stability and it's not something to scoff at. 

 

On the other end of the spectrum, do you honestly think Sammy or Bert wouldn't waive their NTC to go to a contender if another Stanley Cup were on the line and the Wings weren't making the playoffs?


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#69 matt198913

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

I got news for you all. The Wings do not make deadline splashes anymore. The D looks pretty solid. Who knows we may have the best crop of young D in the league. Lashoff in general aunt going anywhere
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#70 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:05 PM


I got news for you all. The Wings do not make deadline splashes anymore. The D looks pretty solid. Who knows we may have the best crop of young D in the league. Lashoff in general aunt going anywhere


The D has played better lately, but overall, has been laughably bad. Far too many turnovers and dumb mistakes. No deadline splashes? Then we sit here and stay the same inconsistent team who lacks a reliable scoring punch and has a defense that's normally a sieve while everyone around gets better. Again. Either improvements are made, or the playoffs fall out of reach. It's that simple.

Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 01 March 2013 - 05:05 PM.

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#71 VM1138

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:57 PM

Trading Datsyuk is ridiculous.  Trade away a sure fire superstar for a handful of maybe-one-day-stars?  Wouldn't it make more sense to surround him with talent and go for it all this year or next year?  I'd rather come up with creative packages to get another 2nd line scorer or some defense and see what happens.  This team is always under-estimated, probably because of their inconsistency, but when this team is on they are nearly unstoppable. Right now, this is not a Cup caliber team, but we're not more than maybe two new players away from contending seriously.  You'd be amazed what a difference the right players can make.

 

I don't care if it takes picks, to be honest.  Building from within is important, but I'd drop a 1st and some players for a superstar defenseman in a heart-beat, as long as he was in his mid-20s.  Because he is going to win you more games than a potential #1 prospect 8 years from then.


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#72 DeGraa55

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:27 AM

We need to add without subtracting. Dealing for talent while losing talent doesn't help us. We're right back where we started.



Lol best post of the year.


Tell me how you add without subtracting? You give away a clearly or Sammy or 95% of our team and expect a star player.

Trading Datsyuk is ridiculous.  Trade away a sure fire superstar for a handful of maybe-one-day-stars?  Wouldn't it make more sense to surround him with talent and go for it all this year or next year?  I'd rather come up with creative packages to get another 2nd line scorer or some defense and see what happens.  This team is always under-estimated, probably because of their inconsistency, but when this team is on they are nearly unstoppable. Right now, this is not a Cup caliber team, but we're not more than maybe two new players away from contending seriously.  You'd be amazed what a difference the right players can make.
 
I don't care if it takes picks, to be honest.  Building from within is important, but I'd drop a 1st and some players for a superstar defenseman in a heart-beat, as long as he was in his mid-20s.  Because he is going to win you more games than a potential #1 prospect 8 years from then.



I agree we need talent around days cause really clearly and Abby don't cut it. BUT HOW DO WE DO THAT WHEN WE DONT HAVE GUYS TO TRADE TO GET STARS AROUND HIM.

You think we can win now. But FACT we can't. I only support trading dats if he won't sign an extension....soon. same to fil.

This team as it stands can't win a Stanley cup and the only way to get to that point is by trades(Holland won't do the necessary trades) and FA. Hopefully we can get a few wingers top help our top two lines.

#73 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

Lol best post of the year.


Tell me how you add without subtracting? You give away a clearly or Sammy or 95% of our team and expect a star player.



I agree we need talent around days cause really clearly and Abby don't cut it. BUT HOW DO WE DO THAT WHEN WE DONT HAVE GUYS TO TRADE TO GET STARS AROUND HIM.

You think we can win now. But FACT we can't. I only support trading dats if he won't sign an extension....soon. same to fil.

This team as it stands can't win a Stanley cup and the only way to get to that point is by trades(Holland won't do the necessary trades) and FA. Hopefully we can get a few wingers top help our top two lines.


FYI, the phrase means coming out of a trade better than when you enter. It's used all the time. "Star" is a relative term. Different players are stars to different teams for different reasons. Do I expect to get Corey Perry for Ericsson and a 7th? Absolutely not. But quality players can be had. Holland tried, as Bruce Garrioch recently reported, to trade for O'Reilly. Given the asking price, that would've been a mistake. He's talked with the Panthers about Stephen Weiss. He's trying to make a deal. It's not like he's on vacation. As the poster before you said, it can be incredible what just a few players can do for your team. You never know until you try. So, know that I've told you what it means, yes, we need to add without subtracting in an overall, general "team" sense.

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#74 Richdg

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:43 PM

I am all for taking time to make a deal. As things have developed the need on D has really dropped of. Our top 6 are playing well, finally. They have always had talent, now they are putting it together, which is great and was hoped for. Now we need to help our the forward corps. G is set, D looks pretty good, but we cant score. You don't win many games scoring just 1 or 2 goals. We have play mkers and passers. need guys to crash the net, work the corners, and that can shoot. The hard part is, those are the most valuable players in the NHL. Kinda like power hitters and strike out pitchers in baseball.

But we have a month untill the trade deadline. lets hope a few more teams drop out-not us, and more becomes available.



#75 FlashyG

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:29 PM

We have a very large contingent of very good to elite Defensive prospects with only a couple forwards in that category. We also have more depth on D than at forward so if anyone is moved from the current roster it will likely be from the back end.

 

I don't think its out of the question to move a prospect combined with some picks or depth defenceman to improve the top 6. It would all depend on the player we are getting back and which prospect(s) we would be giving up.

 

We can forget any dreams of moving guys like Cleary, nobody wants to sign a rental who can't even produce while playing with an elite set-up man. He's ours till his contract is up. Trading Datsyuk will never happen unless he demands one himself so that's another non-starter.



#76 HIFI_canadian

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:08 AM

Bouwmeester? No way. If Holland is looking for a "Shut-down" defenseman then Jay Bouwmeester is no where close to being that. He's an offensive defenseman and in my opinion an overrated defenseman. We don't need another offensive defenseman, you need a defensive one who stays at home and they are pretty hard to find on the market. 

 

I don't see us getting a top line defenseman at the deadline, honestly I wouldn't want to give up another first round pick. As hard as it may sounds, I would rather be a seller then a buyer if we had a choice at the deadline. Pack it in, ride it out and hope for the best because we haven't had a good draft since the Jimmy D/Bowman days and quite honestly this is the time to show how great Ken Holland is in the draft. No more excuses cause we don't have the first two picks or where our position is in the draft. It's finally catching up to us that the only way to succeed in this league is to draft. We cannot depend on Free agency and trade deadline moves because Detroit is no longer a place where Future Hall of famers want to come. 

 

No one is going to want Franzen's outrageous contract, I would suggest using the amnesty clause this summer on Franzen. The guy doesn't deserve the contract and is not a top 2 line forward in my opinion. Flippula is back at his old ways, he is not shooting the puck and his confidence level is not up there. He had a good run last season but I cannot imagine what he would be asking in the offseason. I suggest we let him walk and let some team like Columbus over-sign him (referring to the counter-trade offer for Nash last year). 

 

We might be able to get Stephen Weiss from Florida, he's been playing awful and  his trade value might be reasonable for us. 


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#77 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:27 AM

Bouwmeester? No way. If Holland is looking for a "Shut-down" defenseman then Jay Bouwmeester is no where close to being that. He's an offensive defenseman and in my opinion an overrated defenseman. We don't need another offensive defenseman, you need a defensive one who stays at home and they are pretty hard to find on the market. 

 

I don't see us getting a top line defenseman at the deadline, honestly I wouldn't want to give up another first round pick. As hard as it may sounds, I would rather be a seller then a buyer if we had a choice at the deadline. Pack it in, ride it out and hope for the best because we haven't had a good draft since the Jimmy D/Bowman days and quite honestly this is the time to show how great Ken Holland is in the draft. No more excuses cause we don't have the first two picks or where our position is in the draft. It's finally catching up to us that the only way to succeed in this league is to draft. We cannot depend on Free agency and trade deadline moves because Detroit is no longer a place where Future Hall of famers want to come. 

 

No one is going to want Franzen's outrageous contract, I would suggest using the amnesty clause this summer on Franzen. The guy doesn't deserve the contract and is not a top 2 line forward in my opinion. Flippula is back at his old ways, he is not shooting the puck and his confidence level is not up there. He had a good run last season but I cannot imagine what he would be asking in the offseason. I suggest we let him walk and let some team like Columbus over-sign him (referring to the counter-trade offer for Nash last year). 

 

We might be able to get Stephen Weiss from Florida, he's been playing awful and  his trade value might be reasonable for us. 

Pull that stunt and there won't be any fans to watch this disaster you're suggesting.  The idea is to lessen the time spent rebuilding.  Adding proven talent now to an improving young crop of prospects is the best way to do that.

 

And my eyesight may be going, but did you just say that you WANT to be a seller?  So, you WANT to fail?  You WANT the season to tank?  That's plain stupidity.  We are nowhere close to the basement.  Selling now is beyond foolish.  This team needs another top-6 scorer and fewer injuries.  The D has improved to the point where Kronwall is finally emerging as a #1.  Lashoff makes an effective defensive D-man.  Quincey has gotten better.  I still hate Ericsson and Kindl.  Ship one or both off as part of a package for a top-6 goal-scorer and I'll be happy.  Too many mistakes and too much wasted potential.


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#78 HIFI_canadian

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:15 PM

Pull that stunt and there won't be any fans to watch this disaster you're suggesting.  The idea is to lessen the time spent rebuilding.  Adding proven talent now to an improving young crop of prospects is the best way to do that.

 

And my eyesight may be going, but did you just say that you WANT to be a seller?  So, you WANT to fail?  You WANT the season to tank?  That's plain stupidity.  We are nowhere close to the basement.  Selling now is beyond foolish.  This team needs another top-6 scorer and fewer injuries.  The D has improved to the point where Kronwall is finally emerging as a #1.  Lashoff makes an effective defensive D-man.  Quincey has gotten better.  I still hate Ericsson and Kindl.  Ship one or both off as part of a package for a top-6 goal-scorer and I'll be happy.  Too many mistakes and too much wasted potential.

I am not saying to "tank". I said if we had a choice I would choose to sell and that doesn't mean firesale but sell your depth players like Quincey, Kindl, Flipp, Frans (doubtful)..etc. Allow the youngsters like Tatar and Andersson to get more ice time. Lets be honest, we have a 48 game schedule. I would rather focus on the offseason now then do it in a full 82 game season. Btw, Kronwall finally emeraging as a "#1"? You're kidding right? probably the worse quarterback Defenseman in the league, he has proven that he does not belong as a #1 Defenseman. Coughs up the puck, cannot spread the puck out when leaving the defense zone and most importantly gets beat out 1 on 1. Quincey has not gotten better, wouldnt be surprised you see him on Waivers when Colo comes back. Ericsson has actually gotten better, I cant believe how well he is passing the puck but again still has some major flaws. You need a #1 Defenseman, simple.


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#79 Nightfall

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

Maybe just it makes too much sense? The guy has nothing left to prove here, he is playing for an organization in decline/rebuild mode and would love to retire in Russia, he will be 37 when his contract is up, so do the math here..

 

I agree with posters, saying that Holland has to be more aggressive now but keep in mind guys like Reilly are going to command a big prize and I highly doubt the Avalanche would deal him to this team. Yannick Weber would be nice but he is not a #1 defender, so sadly there aren't as many options as people like to think.

 

At some point in the not so distant future Holland has to hit 1 - 2 homeruns, otherwhise this team might be looking at another streak but not a nice on.e

 

Lids had nothing to prove either, yet he stayed.  Rumors were all over that he was going to go back to Sweden and he never did.  Unloading Dats would be a major mistake and would set this franchise back seriously.,


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#80 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:41 PM

I am not saying to "tank". I said if we had a choice I would choose to sell and that doesn't mean firesale but sell your depth players like Quincey, Kindl, Flipp, Frans (doubtful)..etc. Allow the youngsters like Tatar and Andersson to get more ice time. Lets be honest, we have a 48 game schedule. I would rather focus on the offseason now then do it in a full 82 game season. Btw, Kronwall finally emeraging as a "#1"? You're kidding right? probably the worse quarterback Defenseman in the league, he has proven that he does not belong as a #1 Defenseman. Coughs up the puck, cannot spread the puck out when leaving the defense zone and most importantly gets beat out 1 on 1. Quincey has not gotten better, wouldnt be surprised you see him on Waivers when Colo comes back. Ericsson has actually gotten better, I cant believe how well he is passing the puck but again still has some major flaws. You need a #1 Defenseman, simple.

Kronwall is among the league-leaders in points on defense.  Quincey hasn't been as bad as he was early on.  Ericsson is downright terribad.  Playing with Cleary and Abdelkader on the PP doesn't help one's "quarterback Defenseman" qualities.  So, scoring points proves you don't belong?  I guess I should hope the defenseman just don't bother taking the ice anymore.  Kronwall hasn't been perfect, but to say Ericsson got better after he cost us the Chicago game is silly.  He's a waste of a roster spot.  Same with Kindl.


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