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Anyone else liking the pre 2005 more?


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#21 MibJab

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:10 PM

Seems the status quo in Detroit is that us fans really hate change. If our team is not winning (buying) championships, we are awful quick to throw in the towel during the franchises' refocus period. Think about the superstores vs small business. Think of the pre lockout era Wings in relation to Meijer/Walmart. These mega stores kill any chance of small business thriving in the surrounding areas. What the league has done is regulate the amount of spending in regards to team salary. This way, no matter where the team is located, they all have equal opportunity due to adequate business strategy, to succeed in the NHL. This League is not just 4 or 5 teams at the top winning every year anymore. Its an equal opportunities market. For the league's sake, they had to lower the top in order to raise the bottom. It helps to try to generate even income for all franchises, so that even in the small markets, the small fan followings that they do have can continue to stick around with hope that their team can win it all. After all, this is a business. Look at what happened to the city of Detroit. The big fish (auto industry) was the only source of economy because the little fish couldn't stand up against the big fish. When the big fish died out, or expanded/relocated to other major cities, the entire city of Detroit ended up in the s***ter. This is what would've happened if the league would've continued its pre lockout course of action. What Illitch and Co. used to do was buy their way to the top. Now, since that strategy has been almost eliminated, They seem to be restructuring the way they go about the present and the future. They are stocking up on young prospects and building almost entirely within. However, this comes at the cost of a few present years. The future is bright, the Red Wings will be at the top once again. It doesn't happen over night anymore and our fans just cannot seem to grasp this concept at all. The league is changing for the better, and whether or not us fans realize this, change is going to continue to occur. I think this downtime has really exposed our bandwagon fans. It seems as though the majority of "the best fans in the league" are not really hockey fans at all. When our team is not winning, we blame the league, the commissioner, the refs. Detroit fans only appreciate winning through absurd spending and monopolizing the sport whereas a true hockey fan enjoys, accepts, and appreciates the game of hockey no matter the circumstances. (See Toronto, or any Canadian club for example) No matter how awful the team is, their still selling out games due to love of the sport. Americans, Red Wings fans are greedy..


Edited by MibJab, 07 April 2013 - 09:16 PM.


#22 frankgrimes

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:14 PM

Seems the status quo in Detroit is that us fans really hate change. If our team is not winning (buying) championships, we are awful quick to throw in the towel during the franchises' refocus period. Think about the superstores vs small business. Think of the pre lockout era Wings in relation to Meijer/Walmart. These mega stores kill any chance of small business thriving in the surrounding areas. What the league has done is regulate the amount of spending in regards to team salary. This way, no matter where the team is located, they all have equal opportunity due to adequate business strategy, to succeed in the NHL. This League is not just 4 or 5 teams at the top winning every year anymore. Its an equal opportunities market. For the league's sake, they had to lower the top in order to raise the bottom. It helps to try to generate even income for all franchises, so that even in the small markets, the small fan followings that they do have can continue to stick around with hope that their team can win it all. After all, this is a business. Look at what happened to the city of Detroit. The big fish (auto industry) was the only source of economy because the little fish couldn't stand up against the big fish. When the big fish died out, or expanded/relocated to other major cities, the entire city of Detroit ended up in the s***ter. This is what would've happened if the league would've continued its pre lockout course of action. What Illitch and Co. used to do was buy their way to the top. Now, since that strategy has been almost eliminated, They seem to be restructuring the way they go about the present and the future. They are stocking up on young prospects and building almost entirely within. However, this comes at the cost of a few present years. The future is bright, the Red Wings will be at the top once again. It doesn't happen over night anymore and our fans just cannot seem to grasp this concept at all. The league is changing for the better, and whether or not us fans realize this, change is going to continue to occur. I think this downtime has really exposed our bandwagon fans. It seems as though the majority of "the best fans in the league" are not really hockey fans at all. When our team is not winning, we blame the league, the commissioner, the refs. Detroit fans only appreciate winning through absurd spending and monopolizing the sport whereas a true hockey fan enjoys, accepts, and appreciates the game of hockey no matter the circumstances. (See Toronto, or any Canadian club for example) No matter how awful the team is, their still selling out games due to love of the sport. Americans, Red Wings fans are greedy..


Took me a while to read the whole thing, because I am on my mobilephone. However you are bringing up some very good and well thought points:

I really like the big fish/family company analogy, but truth of the matter is all teams are owned by billionaires and who is to say some of them didn't didn't expose smaller - note family companies - firms? If they did so, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt in any way shape or form.

Ilitch worked his way up to where he is now and now he should be punished, because he loves success more than a cheap, quick buck? No in my mind this is not fair at all!

The MLB doesn't have lockouts, because the system is designed really well. Owners can spend whatever they want, but by doing so their penalty fees are used to support smaller franchises, which I really love. Now back to the analogy from before, where are those "even playing field rules" in the real world?

Nowhere to be found but you'll find a lot of sweatshops, hostile take overs and outsourcing which destroys regions and family companies. The Isles owner had to change his company name a few times, because he was regarded and lead like an absolute tyrann and now he is a crying poor and at the same time killing a once proud franchise, this is not fair he shouldn't receive money from great owners.

I couldn't care less how the rest of the league is thinking about Detroits best years,, there are 29 franchises or different businesses but thats hardly Wings related. The sport itself would do better without having the NHL as a roof organisation and just different teams working together.

The final nail in the coffin for me will be once hitting, fighting is almost gone from the game and the whole mini-allstar called shootout being introduced into the playoffs.

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#23 BadgerBob

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:49 PM

I myself am not a fan of a salary cap. I as well prefer the soft cap, like the MLB has. Teams should be able to spend whatever they want over the cap and in return pay a fee to the other teams for going over the cap. 

 

Some people might think the old hockey was too slow and boring, but what I really miss though is the toughness. There aren't too many guys that can score and fight in this league anymore. Back in the day there were tons of those guys (Shanny and Yzerman especially).I recognize that actions had to be taken to improve players safety with concussions, but with the new rules and this emphasis it seems like the game is getting less physical and I can't stand it. You rarely see any big hits anymore because guys are afraid of getting suspended or fined. I also missed when teams legitimately hated each other like the Red Wings/Avs rivalry. As a kid growing up it was so exciting to watch.

 

The other thing I think was a huge mistake was obviously not signing with ESPN, although NBC is getting better.

 

I still love watching more than anything and I'll even watch games with teams I'm not a fan of, but it definitely doesn't seem to be as good as it used to.



#24 Jersey Wing

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:30 AM

I HATE the salary cap (I detest it in ANY sport), and I do not like the shootout (too many points being awarded for not enough effort). I do like the wider-open (nice word huh?) play and I like the fact the NHL playoffs are no longer the rodeo. Kind of a mixed bag.

 

Sooner or later that salary cap is going to bite the NHL when top players one day decide they can play abroad like the KHL where there is no cap, no income tax and it's a pretty good game. Say 2 or 3 stars did this the NHL might have to reassess how much teams can spend. 


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#25 Nightfall

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:53 AM

By and far, the big market teams that bought the best teams hate the salary cap.  Meanwhile, the small market teams love the salary cap.  That isn't surprising at all.  I know its all doom and gloom for Wings fans, but this is the way the league is now.  Wings management is approaching things the right way in the post salary cap world.


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#26 Serratoni

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:44 AM

Seems the status quo in Detroit is that us fans really hate change. If our team is not winning (buying) championships, we are awful quick to throw in the towel during the franchises' refocus period. Think about the superstores vs small business. Think of the pre lockout era Wings in relation to Meijer/Walmart. These mega stores kill any chance of small business thriving in the surrounding areas. What the league has done is regulate the amount of spending in regards to team salary. This way, no matter where the team is located, they all have equal opportunity due to adequate business strategy, to succeed in the NHL. This League is not just 4 or 5 teams at the top winning every year anymore. Its an equal opportunities market. For the league's sake, they had to lower the top in order to raise the bottom. It helps to try to generate even income for all franchises, so that even in the small markets, the small fan followings that they do have can continue to stick around with hope that their team can win it all. After all, this is a business. Look at what happened to the city of Detroit. The big fish (auto industry) was the only source of economy because the little fish couldn't stand up against the big fish. When the big fish died out, or expanded/relocated to other major cities, the entire city of Detroit ended up in the s***ter. This is what would've happened if the league would've continued its pre lockout course of action. What Illitch and Co. used to do was buy their way to the top. Now, since that strategy has been almost eliminated, They seem to be restructuring the way they go about the present and the future. They are stocking up on young prospects and building almost entirely within. However, this comes at the cost of a few present years. The future is bright, the Red Wings will be at the top once again. It doesn't happen over night anymore and our fans just cannot seem to grasp this concept at all. The league is changing for the better, and whether or not us fans realize this, change is going to continue to occur. I think this downtime has really exposed our bandwagon fans. It seems as though the majority of "the best fans in the league" are not really hockey fans at all. When our team is not winning, we blame the league, the commissioner, the refs. Detroit fans only appreciate winning through absurd spending and monopolizing the sport whereas a true hockey fan enjoys, accepts, and appreciates the game of hockey no matter the circumstances. (See Toronto, or any Canadian club for example) No matter how awful the team is, their still selling out games due to love of the sport. Americans, Red Wings fans are greedy..

 

Blah, blah, blah, #OccupyTheNHL

 

Anyone who claims that Detroit fans are "greedy," "are not really hockey fans," are "bandwagon fans," and that they "only appreciate winning through absurd spending and monopolizing the sport" has no historical perspective on the Red Wings. The Wings have made 6 Stanley Cup Finals appearances in the last twenty years. Only one of those teams could be claimed to have been "bought." Furthermore, the "bought" players like Hull and Robitaille wouldn't have come to Detroit had the Wings not already possessed an exceptional core of players (Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Shanahan, etc.) that the team fairly drafted or traded for.

 

The NHL need not become your utopian, share-the-wealth dream in order to lure fans ("What the league has done is regulate the amount of spending in regards to team salary. This way, no matter where the team is located, they all have equal opportunity due to adequate business strategy, to succeed in the NHL."). A quality product on the ice will attract an audience.



#27 Dabura

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:27 AM

The Cap's done wonders for Calgary.


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#28 StormJH1

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:53 AM

This thread is drifting more into the economic issues of whether it was better for owners before 2004.   While poor finances can cripple a franchise, I've never bought the argument that the post-2005 NHL is particularly friendly to the struggling markets.  The relatively increase in value of the Canadian dollar certainly helped, as did a bunch of other things.  But the salary cap comes with a salary floor, and that floor is now significantly higher than the CAP was in 2005-06.  Some teams (like the Islanders) find creative ways to "spend" money to satisfy the rules without actually making their team any better.  Teams like Nashville get backed into gigantic deals for players like Weber (RFA match) and Rinne (re-signing), without which they wouldn't even be close to the salary floor.  And teams like Buffalo spent absurd amounts of money on guys like Ville Leino just because of pressure to "keep" up with what the Cap dictates a "competitive" team should be spending.

 

But I think the on-ice product gets credited as being "better" for a lot of reasons that had nothing to do with the lockout changes.  No 2-line passes was a good idea, and I like 4-on-4 overtime.  You could argue that the obstruction penalties opened up the game, but that's also lead to terrible injuries and concussions.  The other "advances" are mostly due to athletic evolution and improvements in equipment that have nothing to do with the rules.  I don't feel as if more people are tuning in specifically becasue of shootouts, the trapezoid, or 2 minutes for firing the puck over the glass.

 

The biggest change I see in being a devout Red Wings and NHL fan since the early 90's are the blocked shots.  Skating equipment and dedication to shot blocking has really changed the game, and I think it's for the worse.  If you watched a Wings game in the late 90's and the Wings were setting up from the points and shooting into traffic, that felt like an imminent chance for a goal.  Now, it's a non-event - that puck, more likely or not, isn't getting anywhere near the net.  I don't have a "fix" for it, it's just one of those things that evolves out a game with more athletic players, more sophisticated defensive schemes, and defenseman who are as well protected as some goalies were in the 70's. 



#29 Nightfall

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

The Cap's done wonders for Calgary.

 

Hell, spending to the limit did wonders for the Rangers in the pre-cap world didn't it?  :D


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#30 kipwinger

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:37 PM

The argument that there are teams in bad markets that water down the product of the game is valid, but I don't think that's something to necessarily pin on the salary cap.  It's bad leadership.  The NHL has the opportunity to relocate teams like Phoenix and haven't to this point.  

 

As far as the salary cap goes, it's about creating a level playing field.  You're right that money doesn't buy championships, but in baseball you can pencil in half the playoff field just by looking at rosters.  Teams without deep pockets face an uphill battle from the start.  You have MLB cities that haven't seen playoff action in literally decades.  I question whether some of those small market teams are even focused on winning.  I'm pretty sure clubs like the Pirates have just pocketed all kickbacks from the luxury cap instead of funneling that into improving the on-field team.  The fans suffer under this model.

 

The salary cap pushes the burden of success on management and scouting.  In a luxury cap scenario, talented players just have to float out into free agency until they land on Cash Island.  Some teams end up being relegated to Pro Farm status.  What's fair is having all teams built under the same set of rules.  The NHL messes a lot of things up but the decision to have a hard salary cap is one thing they have right.  Teams should not have a competitive advantage on the basis of being owned by a billionaire.

 

I completely agree with this.  And I feel a lot of fans who are opposed to the salary cap would sing a different tune if they grew up in Calgary, Winnipeg, Nashville, etc.

 

People make the baseball comparison all the time and I think it's a bad one.  Look at teams like Kansas City or Minnesota who have good management, scout well, draft well, develop well, and then lose all their quality talent because they simply can't afford to spend like the Tigers, Red Sox, Yankees, Rangers, etc.  It must suck to be a baseball fan in Minneapolis-St. Paul, and that's a real shame because they've got good fan support regardless of a systemic bias. 


Edited by kipwinger, 08 April 2013 - 01:40 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#31 frankgrimes

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:59 AM

I completely agree with this.  And I feel a lot of fans who are opposed to the salary cap would sing a different tune if they grew up in Calgary, Winnipeg, Nashville, etc.

 

People make the baseball comparison all the time and I think it's a bad one.  Look at teams like Kansas City or Minnesota who have good management, scout well, draft well, develop well, and then lose all their quality talent because they simply can't afford to spend like the Tigers, Red Sox, Yankees, Rangers, etc.  It must suck to be a baseball fan in Minneapolis-St. Paul, and that's a real shame because they've got good fan support regardless of a systemic bias. 

 

Oh yeah how poor they are, they are getting millions and millions of $ from these teams, because of the luxury tax. If their owners don't want to spend don't force them and save the crying poor after it. Thats the way to do it, the MLB has this right, the NHL is not even close to not and therefore the product is watered down and extremely boring to watch.

 

I am still pissed at Fehr for not pushing for a luxury tax instead of CBA scene. It may seem like people are only pissed at the cap for me it is a combination of many things (boring trade-deadline, UFA days, forced parity, stupid rule changes keeping questionable people at their jobs paying them more than 80 % of the players who are the damn product).

 

In 6 years this will happen again, good times ahead...not


Edited by frankgrimes, 09 April 2013 - 05:08 AM.

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#32 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:45 AM

I completely agree with this.  And I feel a lot of fans who are opposed to the salary cap would sing a different tune if they grew up in Calgary, Winnipeg, Nashville, etc.

 

People make the baseball comparison all the time and I think it's a bad one.  Look at teams like Kansas City or Minnesota who have good management, scout well, draft well, develop well, and then lose all their quality talent because they simply can't afford to spend like the Tigers, Red Sox, Yankees, Rangers, etc.  It must suck to be a baseball fan in Minneapolis-St. Paul, and that's a real shame because they've got good fan support regardless of a systemic bias. 

 MTS Centre in Winnipeg needs 3000 more seats.  There's a stupid waiting list just to get single tickets and pairs.  If there was 3000 more seats here the Jets would be top 5 in revenue.  Not to mention our ticket prices are near the top.  Someone told me 2nd. 

 

Side note:  I haven't been to an NHL game since Selanne was a Jet and they beat Dallas 7-6 with 4 goals by Teemu and I get to go to the game on the 16th against Tampa and see Stamkos, which should be pretty damn exciting.  Hopefully Yzerman's there. :wub:


Edited by Z Winged Dangler, 09 April 2013 - 07:45 AM.

Free darkmanx!

 

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