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Richdg

The MANtha watch.....

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7 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

1C, 2C, 1D

 

Gotta have those 3 be all world.

 

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom

Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom

Toews, Kane, Keith

Crosby, Malkin, Letang

Kopitar, Carter, Doughty

Bergeron, Seguin, Chara

Sakic, Forsberg, Blake

 

Etc.

 

Always 2 awesome forwards and an elite Dman.

A little nit picky, i know, but I would say more so an elite 1C plus another all star forward.. (ovi and kane come to mind as wingers that are franchise cornerstones). 

Also, Seguin wasn’t in the top six on Boston because they’re terrible at managing players :P 

But I do agree with the overall idea of your post.

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18 hours ago, Richdg said:

If we traded a great young F for a great young Dman are we better? For the last 10 years or so the Preds have had the best BL corp and 1 of the top 3 G and they barely made the playoffs. It wasn't until they added high end F's that they became a great team. So does having only one good group work? I would say no. The Kings, Pens, and Blackhawks have all won multiple SC's over the last 10 years or so. All have had great F's and great Dmen.

So do we have both? No. Do we have enough assets to make the trades required to have both? No. We have to draft and sign UFA's. If we had 6-8 young high end F's that would be different. But we are not there yet.

Execpt they have a potential replacement for Mantha in Svechnikov, and it's easier to find those types of wingers than d-men in the draft.  The Preds failure was no offense.  Larkin, AA, Svech, and the rest of the players they have without Mantha mean that the Wings won't have that issue.

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2 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Execpt they have a potential replacement for Mantha in Svechnikov, and it's easier to find those types of wingers than d-men in the draft.  The Preds failure was no offense.  Larkin, AA, Svech, and the rest of the players they have without Mantha mean that the Wings won't have that issue.

Umm No...

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14 hours ago, kliq said:

Pittsburgh is a hard team to use as an example as having the best player of a generation, and possibly the 2nd or 3rd best player of a generation on the same team as the 1C and 2C will always give you a chance to win a cup as long as they are surrounded by decent players. 

No doubt. But I think the point still stands. In '09 they had Jordan Staal as their 3C and I remember that being a big deal. (Granted, you can run Jordan Staal as your 3C when you have Crosby and Malkin.) Their last two Cups, they had a really deep forward group, outstanding goaltending, great team defense...but not an especially great defense group, at least on paper. (Granted, [blah blah blah] Crosby and Malkin.) Do they win those Cups without Crosby? Probably not. But saying those teams had great blue lines is maybe a bit of a stretch.

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The Pens have a very good defensive BL and 1 great offensive Dman in Letang. The last 2 years they alsoi had Daley helping with the O.

Yes DD you agreed with me about the Preds. They had a great D but couldn't score. They had the best Dman in the game in Weber in the prime of his career and missed the PO's more often than making it. Plus Jones Josi etc.... Yet they couldn't score and didnt make it to the PO's. That is my point. Moving our O to get better at D may not make us a better team, which is the goal.

As for replacing a Mantha, there is no one in our organization as good as he is. Period. He is a potential 40+ goal scorer that can set himself up offensively and play physical. I love Svechnikov but he isn't in Mantha's league. Mantha tops out at 40 goals 80 points. Svechnikov is more a 25 goal 60 point guy-he is a very good play maker. Yes he is a potential top 6 F but he is not a potential top 2 or 3 F like Mantha is. Fact is Mantha is our best F. Better than Larkin AA or anyone else. He is a potential top 20 player in the league. Like Shanny was.

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15 minutes ago, Richdg said:

The Pens have a very good defensive BL and 1 great offensive Dman in Letang. The last 2 years they alsoi had Daley helping with the O.

Yes DD you agreed with me about the Preds. They had a great D but couldn't score. They had the best Dman in the game in Weber in the prime of his career and missed the PO's more often than making it. Plus Jones Josi etc.... Yet they couldn't score and didnt make it to the PO's. That is my point. Moving our O to get better at D may not make us a better team, which is the goal.

As for replacing a Mantha, there is no one in our organization as good as he is. Period. He is a potential 40+ goal scorer that can set himself up offensively and play physical. I love Svechnikov but he isn't in Mantha's league. Mantha tops out at 40 goals 80 points. Svechnikov is more a 25 goal 60 point guy-he is a very good play maker. Yes he is a potential top 6 F but he is not a potential top 2 or 3 F like Mantha is. Fact is Mantha is our best F. Better than Larkin AA or anyone else. He is a potential top 20 player in the league. Like Shanny was.

Not to mention Justin Schultz who had 51 pts and was 7th in the league in defensive scoring last year. So they had 2 of the best offensive Dmen in the league at playoff time this past year - Hard to match up against.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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3 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Not to mention Justin Schultz who had 51 pts and was 7th in the league in defensive scoring last year. So they had 2 of the best offensive Dmen in the league at playoff time this past year - Hard to match up against.

Didn't Letang miss their entire postseason run last season?

I dunno, I distinctly remember thinking at the start of each of the Crosby-era Cup runs that if the Pens were to fail, it'd be because of a questionable defense group. I'm not saying those blue lines weren't good, I just don't feel they were quite at *that level* where people generally say a true Cup-caliber team's blue line needs to be. At least, not on paper. I feel like Mike Sullivan's systems helped to cover up for shortcomings on the back end and got the most out of what he had to work with. And '09...well, the less we say about that, the better.

The larger point I'm kind of dancing around here is that our D situation might not be as hopeless as we think it is. Get a Letang type and give him a good-not-great 2-6 supporting cast and that might be enough, depending on your forward group and your goaltending. Letang types are hard to come by, but I dunno if I'd characterize him as the kind of beastly franchise cornerstone defenseman many people say the Wings absolutely need to find.

On the one hand, we need a Rasmus Dahlin. On the other hand, time will probably show that we don't/didn't need a Rasmus Dahlin. Might not even need Erik Karlsson or a prime-years Duncan Keith.

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41 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Didn't Letang miss their entire postseason run last season?

I dunno, I distinctly remember thinking at the start of each of the Crosby-era Cup runs that if the Pens were to fail, it'd be because of a questionable defense group. I'm not saying those blue lines weren't good, I just don't feel they were quite at *that level* where people generally say a true Cup-caliber team's blue line needs to be. At least, not on paper. I feel like Mike Sullivan's systems helped to cover up for shortcomings on the back end and got the most out of what he had to work with. And '09...well, the less we say about that, the better.

The larger point I'm kind of dancing around here is that our D situation might not be as hopeless as we think it is. Get a Letang type and give him a good-not-great 2-6 supporting cast and that might be enough, depending on your forward group and your goaltending. Letang types are hard to come by, but I dunno if I'd characterize him as the kind of beastly franchise cornerstone defenseman many people say the Wings absolutely need to find.

On the one hand, we need a Rasmus Dahlin. On the other hand, time will probably show that we don't/didn't need a Rasmus Dahlin. Might not even need Erik Karlsson or a prime-years Duncan Keith.

You're right. Honestly, I didn't watch them - was just going off what Buppy said and knew of Schultz's beast year. At most you could probably just say they replaced Letang with Schultz's year/playoff performance. So, yeah, they definitely lacked the elite Dman.

I Think there something to that saying that a laking elite D can be overcome. But if you're looking at Pen's as the example, you would need the best player in the game, a 2C who's really a 1C, A 70 pt winger (Kessel), and throw in a low cost rookie Entry level contract scorer who produce almost a PPG (Guentzal) in the playoffs.

But I do think a solid, deep D group could do it with a strong Goalie and great offence. I'm not big on having any formula like Elite 1C+F+1D=success.

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1 minute ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

But if you're looking at Pen's as the example, you would need the best player in the game, a 2C who's really a 1C, A 70 pt winger (Kessel), and throw in a low cost rookie Entry level contract scorer who produce almost a PPG (Guentzal) in the playoffs.

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3 hours ago, Richdg said:

The Pens have a very good defensive BL and 1 great offensive Dman in Letang. The last 2 years they alsoi had Daley helping with the O.

Yes DD you agreed with me about the Preds. They had a great D but couldn't score. They had the best Dman in the game in Weber in the prime of his career and missed the PO's more often than making it. Plus Jones Josi etc.... Yet they couldn't score and didnt make it to the PO's. That is my point. Moving our O to get better at D may not make us a better team, which is the goal.

As for replacing a Mantha, there is no one in our organization as good as he is. Period. He is a potential 40+ goal scorer that can set himself up offensively and play physical. I love Svechnikov but he isn't in Mantha's league. Mantha tops out at 40 goals 80 points. Svechnikov is more a 25 goal 60 point guy-he is a very good play maker. Yes he is a potential top 6 F but he is not a potential top 2 or 3 F like Mantha is. Fact is Mantha is our best F. Better than Larkin AA or anyone else. He is a potential top 20 player in the league. Like Shanny was.

Not trying to be an ass, but why do you just make things up to make a point, it kills your credibility.

Weber played for Nashville for 11 seasons between 2006 and 2016, and of those 11 seasons Nashville made the playoffs 8 times.

Edited by kliq

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On 11/21/2017 at 10:39 PM, kliq said:

Not trying to be an ass, but why do you just make things up to make a point, it kills your credibility.

Weber played for Nashville for 11 seasons between 2006 and 2016, and of those 11 seasons Nashville made the playoffs 8 times.

I miss said it. They struggled to make it is what I am trying to say. missed often and made it as the 8th seed and left the PO's early.

My point is they had the best BL corp in the league and didn't win anything.

Go back 25 years. When the RW's finally started winning We did it with a BL made up largely of other teams castoffs. Yes we draft Nick and Vladdy. But Rouse, Ramsey, Murphy, Samualsson, Krupp, hatcher, Chelios, Ward, Papa Bear, etc.... we all pick ups. Most had 0 offensive ability. They were good solid mistake free defensive first players. It was our F group that produced all the points, most of which we drafted and developed. Every year when we get into the draft talk I talk about drtafting F's and trade for Dmen.

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On 11/9/2017 at 9:56 AM, kickazz said:

Indeed, @TheXym is familiar to it for the same reasons 

Been too long since I’ve been on.  Huge ups for the Star Blazers mention, I was also a huge Robotech fan back in the day.  DBZ was just from my kids watching.

obligatory topic return:  Mantha is gonna be beastly once he puts everything together.  Good start to this season for the most part, but is Blashill going to sour that relationship the way he did with AA?

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3 hours ago, TheXym said:

Been too long since I’ve been on.  Huge ups for the Star Blazers mention, I was also a huge Robotech fan back in the day.  DBZ was just from my kids watching.

obligatory topic return:  Mantha is gonna be beastly once he puts everything together.  Good start to this season for the most part, but is Blashill going to sour that relationship the way he did with AA?

If we miss the playoffs again he will be gone. I hope!

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