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In fairness I cant dispute any of this, when it comes to the cap the guy walks the line and we really haven't lost anyone of note, or not been able to sign someone we wanted because of it. This is why I am against buying out E, doing that today would help nothing for this year, and just adds on time with a cap hit. Rather waste it now.

I think we'll find out this season where he'll fit in long term. I keep wishing he's like M. Jordan, with a clinically crazy drive to win (and train) which like a force of nature makes him top notch while initially considered high end in the middle of the pack. The more realistic view is what kliq writes and what I agree with so far, most likely a 2c. Good, but not a star. Hope I am wrong.

Agreed, very good points. I think Holland has always been this way, but when there was no salary cap and it was high end players, it was considered genius I think all of us talking logically can agree that Hollands strengths as a GM are the ability to establish a great culture within the organization, the ability to retain players and for the most part acquire the UFA's he wants. I know some like to say we can't acquire UFA's because of Suter and Niskanen, but when you look at the last 20 years he almost always get the players he wants. Loyalty to a fault I can agree with, Lefty's over the top rants about Loyalty being such a bad thing and the motive for everything he does, I call BS on (ie. Tatar was re-signed only because of "loyalty"). When we were an elite team, and the players he kept were elite, everybody loved him. Now that we haven't been able to acquire an elite player in a very long time, he is doing the same thing, but it's with mediocre/good players and he appears to be clueless in understanding the salary cap ramifications. But the bigger problem is he appears to be scared to take ANY risks, hence his over reliance on vets. I dont think this team is screwed like some believe, and luckily to this point we haven't lost anyone of note because of these contracts (sorry, but I dont count Ferrero, Frk, Nesty, and Pulk as players of note) and if Holland could make just a few trades and dump just a few contracts I think we would be just fine. Trade away E, Howard, and Nielsen and our cap situation changes considerably. That would be about 15mil not even counting Green's 6mil coming off in the off season. The problem is I don't think he see's it as a problem. I know people will say you can't trade those players, but I think you can trade at least some of them. NOBODY though Shanny could trade a healthy Clarkson, and he did. Just need to be creative.

That's my point. I dont even think he was at 23 goals when this thread was made, if I remember correctly the main reason for the term "elite" being used was his plus/minus and speed. He's definitely not elite, but saying 2C "at best" is kind of an ultra pessimistic way of looking at it. The realistic way would be 1C at best, 3C at worst, 2C most likely.

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...