Wayne Gretzky vs. Bobby Orr

[theman19 47]

Let's also be clear that those were 8 consecutive Norris Trophies. I'm not pushing for Orr, either way both players were the most dominate players to play their positions. I just feel like Orr's amazing career is a little overshadowed by Gretzky's. Of course you could blame that on Orr's physical play.

Here's a a couple great snippets from bruinslegends.blogspot.com:

well yeah,..if you ask most Detroit Fans who go back that far they'll tell you Gordie Howe was the perfect hockey player (and in my mind if i had to pick one player to be on my team i'd be him)

if you ask an Edmonton fan (not that they count) they'd tell you wayne was the greatest hockey brain to every play.

If you go by opinion and what if's then obviously you'll get a varity of opinions

if you go by numbers Gretzky comes out on top by leaps bounds and backflips

and yes those norris' where conseutive

but then so were gretzky's harts

another point i'll make is orr was a physcial player but that's not what made him a force on the ice. He didn't put the fear of God into other teams by checking them, it was offensive ability to control a game that scared people. There we're other bigger meaner defencemen from that era who we're 10X nastier (larry robinson for one)

Edited March 19, 2007 by theman19

[GiantRobot 0]

Gretzky is by far the stats leader, we all know that. Orr though has an impressive resume for a D-man that played only 9 seasons(12 counting the 36 games he played in the last 3 years of his career.) I know they count, but he really did all of his damage 66-75.

Orr:

Games- 657

G-270

A-645

Pts-915

PIM-953

+597

1 Calder

8 norris

2 Ross

3 Hart

2 Conn smythe

2 Cups

1 Pearson

1 Patrick

Only player in NHL history to win 4 major trophies in one season(Cup winning year also)

Led league 6 times in +/-, the most in history

The would have/could have/what if argument does kinda suck, but gretzky had 22 seasons and Orr had 12. Wayne would still be the great one, but its honestly possible that Orr could have closed the gap considerably. Wayne dominated for 16 seasons of his career. Orr for 10. With 6 more years of dominace, he could have come close to 2000 points, and possibly +1000 for his career.

Lemieux played 17 seasons, 2 of which were basically throw aways. With 7 more healthy years to match gretzky's, could he have hit 2500 points? Possibly, and the way he played in his last season, he hadnt lost any skill . His body quit.

All speculation of course, but interesting. No matter how ranked, they are all top 3 worthy, and anyone saying gretzky is better, cant be told theyre crazy, though debate is there to some extent.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

I'm writing a research paper on Gretzky vs Orr, and comparing the two. I have some sources but I was wondering if anybody has some websites I could use to help my paper (not just Wikipedia or anything like that). Also what do you guys think? Who do you think was the better player? What are some memories of either that made them both so great?

John Buccigross wrote a great column on the issue, but I can't go that far back in his archive without being an insider (if someone is an insider and they can send the piece to me I would love you )

Thanks for any opinions or sources!

I don't have any sources, but one angle you could use is the question, who revolutionized the game more? Teachers like that kind of thing. That's a no contest question between these two. Orr hands down.

[TheLegend19 1]

Gretzky's records go uncontested. People give me alot of "what ifs" with Mario Lemieux and Bobby Orr. What if Mario Lemieux or Bobby Orr played 20 seasons? What if they rarely got injured? What if this, what if that, bottom line is... They didn't! Gretzky's 200 point seasons, his 60 whatever records, his 9 Art Rosses, his 9 Harts, etc, etc. I think his numbers go uncontested, I feel he is the most dominant man in any sport, ever. Maybe Mario could have done more, maybe Bobby Orr did a whole lot in his little time in the NHL as a defensemen, but they didn't do as much as Wayne did, and that's what counts.

While I'm not going to contest his records, I don't think he is the most dominant in any sport, ever. Then we're going to get into a debate of Ali, and recently, Armstrong.

[HomeNugget 2]

I don't buy that,...Howe never ever ever said Orr was better than Gretzky and the only time they played on an NHL level was in Gretzky rookie year, hardly a litmus test of Wayne's talent

in fact Howe and Gretzky had a very good relationship Howe was Gretzky's idol and Howe approved of Gretzky breaking his records. I highly doubt that ever came out of Gordie's mouth and if i did i'd like to see it recorded that way.

its in that issue of the hockey news. orr is howe's choice as the best hockey player ever.

[toby91_ca 620]

its in that issue of the hockey news. orr is howe's choice as the best hockey player ever.

To me that really doesn't make a difference anyway....just another person's opinion. He barely played against Orr and played even less against Gretzky.

[HomeNugget 2]

To me that really doesn't make a difference anyway....just another person's opinion. He barely played against Orr and played even less against Gretzky.

i know it doesn't mean much. all i was saying is that howe would know better then a lot of people who didn't play against either of them, like most of the people who voted on THN's list.

Edited March 19, 2007 by HomeNugget

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

I've said it tons of times but never on this site. There is no GREATEST HOCKEY PLAYER flat-out.

Here's how I rate them.

Gretzky- Greatest offensive player

Orr- Greatest offensive defenseman

Howe- Best all-around offensive player

Lidstrom- Best defensive defenseman

Bourque- best all-around defenseman

Roy- Best positional goalie

Sawchuk- Best all-around goalie

Hasek- Best unorthodox goalie

EDIT:

Brodeur- Best reflexive goalie

Edited March 19, 2007 by Wings_Dynasty

[HomeNugget 2]

I've said it tons of times but never on this site. There is no GREATEST HOCKEY PLAYER flat-out.

Here's how I rate them.

Gretzky- Greatest offensive player

Orr- Greatest offensive defenseman

Howe- Best all-around offensive player

Lidstrom- Best defensive defenseman

Bourque- best all-around defenseman

Roy- Best positional goalie

Sawchuk- Best all-around goalie

Hasek- Best unorthodox goalie

Gretzky- Greatest offensive player

Orr- Greatest offensive defenseman

Howe- Best all-around offensive player

HARVEY- Best defensive defenseman

Bourque- best all-around defenseman

Roy- Best positional goalie

Sawchuk- Best all-around goalie

Hasek- Best unorthodox goalie

i fixed your list for you

Edited March 19, 2007 by HomeNugget

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Gretzky- Greatest offensive player

Orr- Greatest offensive defenseman

Howe- Best all-around offensive player

HARVEY- Best defensive defenseman

Bourque- best all-around defenseman

Roy- Best positional goalie

Sawchuk- Best all-around goalie

Hasek- Best unorthodox goalie

i fixed your list for you

Played in a different era. I consider Lidstrom's accomplishments more impressive in the faster, bigger, stronger, new NHL. What with it's fancy composite, huge goalie pads, medical assistance on the bench, and of course glow-pucks.

Similar to how I consider Sawchuk's accomplishments greater than Roy's, what with the tiny pads, no medics, NO MASKS, and harsher schedule.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Wings_Dynasty

[HomeNugget 2]

Played in a different era. I consider Lidstrom's accomplishments more impressive in the faster, bigger, stronger, new NHL. What with it's fancy composite, huge goalie pads, medical assistance on the bench, and of course glow-pucks.

Similar to how I consider Sawchuk's accomplishments greater than Roy's, what with the tiny pads, no medics, NO MASKS, and harsher schedule.

but harvey played in a more talented, tougher league. and i think the goalie pads and medical assistance is more of an argument against lidstrom than against harvey.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

but harvey played in a more talented, tougher league. and i think the goalie pads and medical assistance is more of an argument against lidstrom than against harvey.

Your opinion vs. my opinion. No way to prove a winner.

[HomeNugget 2]

Your opinion vs. my opinion. No way to prove a winner.

i disagree. we shouldn't even be arguing lidstrom v. harvey.

[toby91_ca 620]

i disagree. we shouldn't even be arguing lidstrom v. harvey.

You can add me to any list that agrees with you. Shouldn't even be discussed. No offense to LIdstrom, Harvey is the best defensive defenseman ever, no question. Lidstrom wouldn't even be my #2 or #3 (not that I have given it any thought).

Lidstrom is great because of offense and defence, but he's not the best in either.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Gretzky- Greatest offensive player

Orr- Greatest offensive defenseman

Howe- Best all-around offensive player

HARVEY- Best defensive defenseman

Bourque- best all-around defenseman

Roy- Best positional goalie

Sawchuk- Best all-around goalie

Hasek- Best unorthodox goalie

i fixed your list for you

Could Fedorov take a run at defensive forward?

[jagr68 0]

Yeah it's a interesting debate, no doubt. In hockey seems that you can make a case for a number of players being the best ever. Howe, Bossy, Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux. It's all opinion. One can make stats up to back up any arguement. Someone said Orr was Howe's choice as best player, but when I saw a documentary on Mario, Howe said that Lemieux was 'by far the greatest hockey player the sport has seen.' Hah, maybe he flip flopped. Also in it, Bourque and Orr said Mario was the best ever. But those are just opinions also. I think a lot of it has to do with what style you prefer. Many say Orr and Howe because their were tough and could fight. So having those qualities, would make them a better player over guys like Mario and Wayne who didn't fight. Well Mario did fight his first year a few times, but not much after that.

Gretzky does have the best stats. He is the most accomplished player ever. He was lucky to play on a team where he wasn't allowed to get hit. And when he finally did he wasn't the same player. If other guys, mostly Mario, could have played and never got hit, his would have done more. People do not like the what if, and coulda been arguements. But if you consider those arguements, you can imagine what a player like Mario could have done. Like Don Cherry said, if Mario played with McSorely, he would have scored 900 goals. Gretzky himself said if Mario wasn't injury plagued he would have broken every one of his records. The fact is, he was injury plagued and didn't break his records. So many would dismiss it. But for the short time Mario played healthy, he was the most dominant player in the game. Even when he wasn't healthy. His last 'pain free' year was the season he notched 199pts, 1988-89 I believe. After that it was downhill for his health but he still put up huge numbers.

Orr was the reason his team was a very dominant team. Gretzky was part of the reason Edmonton was dominant. But he wasn't the main reason. The easiest way to settle that is to realize that Edmonton won another cup AFTER they traded away Wayne. He was a big part of the team, but the team was so good they could win without him. Wayne never won a Cup without Edmonton, but they won a Cup without him. Gretzky played in a highest scoring era. In fact one Wayne left Edmonton his numbers were not all that impressive. His points on a decent LA team were just slightly better than Yzerman on a not so good Wings team.

People say Wayne is the best forward because he has the most points. Going by that, why would those people pick Orr as the best defeseman ever when he doesn't have the most points? They say he dominated the sport while he was in it but had to retire early because of his injuries. You could throw a lot of what if's with Orr also, if he never got injured he would have put up even better numbers. But the arguement would have to be the same for Mario as it is Orr. Both would have put up superior numbers to probably any player in their era, had they stayed injury free. Mario is always looked at as behind Wayne, but Orr seems to be above all defenceman even though he lacks the most points by one also.

Ray Bourque had 1,579pts.

Paul Coffey had 1,531pts.

Bobby Orr had 915pts

I'm not knocking Bobby Orr. I think the guy is awesome, and wished I was alive back when he dominated the game to actually see him. But just saying, Orr is considered the best even though he doesn't have the most points, mainly because people assume he would have had the best numbers had he played longer injury free. I usually make the same arguement with Mario, but most do not. I don't really understand the difference. Orr and Mario are the same in that, if either one played as long or injury free as a Wayne, or a Bourque or a Coffey, the record books would be different.

But like most have said. It's all opinion based. I think Mario dominated the most because I saw him and Wayne play. Wayne was the best set up man, and even though he has the most goals, most were just goals as the result of smart positioning and great teammates. Mario simply domianted. You can make a hour long video (and I have one) of some amazing goals where he would go coast to coast, great stickhandling, beating 2, 3, 4 guys. Just taking over any game single handedly. Wayne had very few goals where he did that. Orr was the same for a defeseman, the guy took over the game like Mario. He would go coast to coast, around 2 or 3 guys, great hands, and could deke a goalie out pretty bad too. Usually when my team plays, and one of us scores like a easy one time shot, or a garbage goal, I rib the guy and call it a 'Gretzky goal'. I started it now most of the other guys do it too. Just that, he was in the right place at the right time. In fact, I have to admit I had a couple 'Gretzky goals' at drop in last night.

Seems every few months a topic like this comes up. And they are fun, and most opinions don't change no matter what type of arguement someone presents. I always rank my picks of the top players like this, and it most likely won't change like most people's will not change on here...I don't think it's cause we are close minded, maybe we are all just stubborn, hah.

Lemieux

Orr

Gretzky

Howe

Bossy

I think though, since the game has changed so much over the years that there are a lot of things to consider. One could argue a player in todays game, with todays coaching, conditioning, training, equipment and technology, you might say a above average player, someone like a Gaborik, could be a 60 or 70 goal scorer back in the high scoring 80s.

If you could picture that, imagine what a guy like Ovechkin, how dominant he'd be 20 years ago.

You could also say, if you took a guy like Mario, Wayne, Orr and gave them todays standards of training and conditioning and all the things that are normal in todays game, they would have even put up bigger numbers back then.

I think the best way to look at it, is the best player per era. You could say Howe was the best player in the world in the 50s and most of the 60s. Bobby was was the best player most of the 70s. Right around 80 or 81, Gretzky was the best player in the world till about 1987. Mario took over as the best player in the world from 1987 till about 1997. From there most would say Jagr was the best player in the world from about 1997-2001. From about 2001 to about 2005 most may say Forsberg. And some, like me, would say from about 2005 till right now, Crosby is the most dominant player in the game.

[toby91_ca 620]

Before sustaining a serious back injury at the hands of Gary Sutur at the 1991 Canada Cup, this was his career stats:

925 games, 718 goals, 2,142 points.

That would work out to 64 goals and 190 points over an 82 game schedule.

He still put up decent numbers playing with a bad back the rest of his career, but nothing compared to where he was.

[gowingsgo 3]

Wayne > everyone else

[CopenhagenWing 38]

Armstrong.

Riding one race competitively every year hardly constitutes dominating a sport.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Could Fedorov take a run at defensive forward?

I think so, I don't know the best defensive forward list but Fedorov is up there I think. Anyone who can playd O and D in a 5 on 5 situation and not be a liability in either is good in my mind.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Gretzky's arsenal after getting traded away from Edmonton:

1 Hart trophy, 3 Art Ross trophies, 4 Lady Byng trophies.

Gretzky's stats after leaving Edmonton:

1188 Pts in 791 GP

Still very impressive. Even after Suter's hit at the Canada cup, he was still very capable of averaging a point per game in every season aside from his last. Can't say that Wayne's success with Edmonton was the only thing that put him on top of the world, because it clearly wasn't.

[bogeygolfer 4]

orr was the best player

the man could kill penalties by skating in circles, defining dominance

what did wayne do that could even compare???

Gretzky is very over rated, at the time he was used to sell the game, I think too many people believe the hype

you forget the guy never won a cup without that allstar edmonton team

Edited March 19, 2007 by bogeygolfer

[metalwinger_13 0]

to me id pick Orr. to me gretzky couldnt do much after he left the "stacked" oilers. and from clips ive seen from his oilers days, gretz always seems to be on a break away. Orr atleast seem to change the game more, with revolutionizing the offensive defencemen role. what did gretz revolutionize? personally id pick howe as the best for his endurance, strentgh, stamina, and skills, but orr wins this argument. he carried the bruins alogn with espo and bucyk, but gretz had another scoring line to help take pressure off, along with "body guards". i never say anythign special about gretz. marion and stevie were way better players, but Orr gets my vote

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

to me gretzky couldnt do much after he left the "stacked" oilers.

He won three scoring titles and an MVP. He led the Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals, far and away outscoring anyone that year in the playoffs (I'm fairly certain no one's come close to his 40 points since then). To me that's something.

[metalwinger_13 0]

ok .. he did one thing away from the oilers.. but if he was so "great" i think he could have had a steady carrer with points, yet he had a ton at first an dliek burned out or somethign at the end. he was a pure 80s goal scorer. hull was the 90s goal scorer along wiht jagr. but to me gretz is a media hype that workeed in favor of the NHL. ya his numbers are impressive but i mean probert scored 30 goals and was a all star during the 80s so what does that tell ya about that period. i mean ya he was good but not good (probert).. to me the 80s wwas when forwards prgressed and goalies were stuck in the 20s lol very inflated. i forget where i say it but hulls 86 goals would be the equivalent to over a hundred had he done it the year gretz scored 90..